Humans and skill points.

Vibius · Post by **Vibius** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:08 pm

In D&D humans get +2 skill points by level additional to their skill points earned by class, since there are no skill points in FK that hasn't any value here.

I was wondering if humans in FK could earn experience lightly faster or improve their skills lightly faster as compensation for this "lost" feature, this way "plain" humans would be more attractive to players codewise.

Solaghar · Post by **Solaghar** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:28 pm

One of the benefits of the new spell and saving throw systems is that many races like halfelves which used to be played by everyone, will never be as powerful in code as they once were. Those of you who are halfelves will find for instance, you're no longer immune to hold spells despite what resistances says, as it's all based on saving throws. Once the new resistances are altered, you will have racial advantages, but the complete and unrealistic immunity several races had won't return.

In line with your proposal though, I'd support humans gaining an additional feat upon character creation, but I don't think skill gain is a good idea, it would just encourage humans as the new power gamer race. The key is to make all races generally balanced rather than give one or another the new 'big advantage'.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:10 pm

Technically, I don't think skills should require leveling up anyhow if we go by D&D standards, but since we do I would have to actually support the idea going towards exp or skills. "Quick to Master" is the name of their 'racial advantage' which translates to 'Sucka' here.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:24 pm

How about they start out skills/spells/weapons at "amatuer" instead of "inept".

That way, it's a very real advantage, but also an advantage a person interested in beating the game wouldn't give a hoot about. Plus I think this would represent the intended nature of the racial benefit in table top. If that isn't possible code wise - one extra feat is pretty good too.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:32 pm

Horace wrote:How about they start out skills/spells/weapons at "amatuer" instead of "inept".

That way, it's a very real advantage, but also an advantage a person interested in beating the game wouldn't give a hoot about. Plus I think this would represent the intended nature of the racial benefit in table top. If that isn't possible code wise - one extra feat is pretty good too.

That's not very useful. I mean, it's something but you can go from inept to amateur very quickly even without spending more gold/platinum to train it. That's why I believe a modifier should be more appropriate of some sort. Because it doesn't help you just at the early stages (which aren't difficult/tedious anyhow).

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:54 pm

The skill point bonus isn't very useful either, in tabletop.

The only reason humans have any bonus is because people look at the other racial bonuses and see +'s on other character sheets and think humans are getting ripped off. But the real bonus of being a human is that your race dominates the world...not because of any tangible physical difference, but because of their culture of ambition and fortune.

If a change is made to make humans a mechanically more powerful race, I think that'd be an err in judgment. Keep it something simple. Personally I think going from 0 to amateur saves a hefty chunk of platinum, especially if you're the kind of person who maxes out on all the trainers.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:59 pm

Horace wrote:The skill point bonus isn't very useful either, in tabletop.

The only reason humans have any bonus is because people look at the other racial bonuses and see +'s on other character sheets and think humans are getting ripped off. But the real bonus of being a human is that your race dominates the world...not because of any tangible physical difference, but because of their culture of ambition and fortune.

If a change is made to make humans a mechanically more powerful race, I think that'd be an err in judgment. Keep it something simple. Personally I think going from 0 to amateur saves a hefty chunk of platinum, especially if you're the kind of person who maxes out on all the trainers.

Please keep in mind I didn't state the modifier. I was simply saying some sort of modifier should be added, in my opinion. No one said they should skill up 2x as fast as any other race.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:21 pm

I'm talking about in tabletop - an extra two points a level is negligible. The only reason they give it (and they use to give just 1 a level with an extra feat) is to appease people who think it's unfair mechanically that they don't.

But the people who get so upset about it, don't think about the benefits that humans get outside of the mechanics. Humans can play a part in any race's culture...they aren't automatically shunned. A human can lead a band of orcs, they can earn the respect of elven druids and serve among them, they can master the dwarven forge methods as well as any dwarf and suddenly find a supporting (probably a little regretfully) community where a cold one use to be found.

Humans can go into any culture and earn their respect. There is no pre-existing racial hatred...that is the real human benefit, gamewise. Benefits don't always need to be mechanical.

But if there is one, keep it very small.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:53 pm

True, Humans are the most common race and most widely accepted, but most of that disfavor is not levied upon the non-Humans in FK as it would normally in D&D. Here, an Elf is as common as sand and thrice as accepted.

There are no coded penalties race-wise that really stunt Elves, Dwarves, or Halflings. There are for Orcs. I don't think it's fair to state 'Well they're most commonly accepted' when there's no real racism that inhibits any form of growth that gives Human that 'advantage' over them. When's the last time you saw a Human say, "Nah, I don't think I'll ask you to help me with this quest because you're an Aasimar?"

To say that's a bonus for Humans is like saying Dwarves are able to drink a lot of Ale. Yeah, it's documented but there is no code/build support.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:03 pm

Almost all the gods who get involved with the world through immortal roleplays or quests, are human gods. I have, so I know you have (since you've been here far longer than I have), seen human gods say things to non human races that aren't favorable.

Heck, there is so much more selection of coded gods on the human side, that one can make an argument that alone is the greatest racial benefit in FK. I just don't like the idea of any race having an advantage in skill increasing - since most the game is so heavy handed on skills mechanically. That's my real fear.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:45 pm

In my own personal opinion, Horace, having a Coded God isn't exactly something that empowers someone. Sure, they may have some nifty little supplication items and the ability to recall once in a while, but they also have specific RP that you are bound to. They have faith enemies. Even the God's enemy will sometimes come down to your detriment. That last has happened to me more than once, so it is not just opinion but personal experience.

One allied with no God at all can enter pretty much any temple they want and learn whatever skills therein are available. Not so with a faithed character.

So, still, I don't think that's a huge advantage.

Perhaps the coded racial characteristic could be slight enough that most wouldn't even notice it?

Zynarc · Post by **Zynarc** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:14 pm

Solaghar wrote:In line with your proposal though, I'd support humans gaining an additional feat upon character creation, but I don't think skill gain is a good idea, it would just encourage humans as the new power gamer race. The key is to make all races generally balanced rather than give one or another the new 'big advantage'.

As far as I know, all new humans created have an extra feat upon creation already. Do you mean to increase the extra feats on creation to two (which means they get a total of three), or do you mean for a total feat number upon creation to be equals to two?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:06 pm

No race really has all the perks that D&D gives them. Skill bonuses from example are treated as base skills given away (which is quite different). Gnomes can't cast illusion spells, drow can't levitate, and so on.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:31 pm

Dalvyn wrote:No race really has all the perks that D&D gives them. Skill bonuses from example are treated as base skills given away (which is quite different). Gnomes can't cast illusion spells, drow can't levitate, and so on.

I was pretty sure the noble Drow had either levitate or flight ability or item that granted them that?

Velius · Post by **Velius** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:57 pm

Selveem wrote:
Dalvyn wrote:No race really has all the perks that D&D gives them. Skill bonuses from example are treated as base skills given away (which is quite different). Gnomes can't cast illusion spells, drow can't levitate, and so on.
I was pretty sure the noble Drow had either levitate or flight ability or item that granted them that?

Only nobles unfortunately, and only with the insignia.