[Brainstorm] Fighters

[Rawlys]

*grumble grumble grumble* I hate to say this, but after reviewing some of the suggestions and actually taking the time to think about everything, I am going to have to retract what I said earlier about there not being too many stat points available (glory conversion).

First of all, this would do several things:

1) It would upset a bunch of players (not the goal of this, but an obvious reaction).

2) It would level out the playing field by 'forcing' the characters to spend their stat points in their respective stats. A couple examples A) Fighter spends points on Str and Con primarily, leaving a couple stats to being 'average' and a couple to 'decent' B) Priest spends points on Wis and Con/Str/Cha, leaving the others to be around average C) Wizard spends points on Int and possibly even Dex, leaving the remaining to be placed based upon RP

-Side note to this: It's all up to RP, as to how the player wants their character to be. I may want a good looking fighter to act as a leader, therefore, a higher Cha. That's fine, but it means a sacrifice on other stats.

3) Fighters would gain more value to act as guardians or protectors, since they should be the ones who are able to swing the biggest sword and wear the heaviest armor. A rogue or wizard wants to spar a fighter? That's thier fault... (Take this idea with the thought of the guard/defend proposal and combine it with attacks of opportunities {casting is one full round action})

4) Magical items would gain in value (not monetary but desire), especially the ones that modify stats.

5) Feats and skill levels would become more important (especially with an addition of combat feats)

- In wrapping up with this idea, I still want to point out that I do like the glory system we have as a reward for overcoming obstacles. Maybe make the requirement for converting glory into stat points 50 while keeping the feat conversion at 20? Of course, if new feats were added to the game along with new quests, the requirement for glory->feat conversion could be raised...

*-----------------------------*

Many of the suggestions mentioned in this topic are very very good and some of them, eh, I don't think so. When it's all said and done, my main viewpoint/focus on all of this should be as close to D20 as possible, with the cleverness and MUDness of FK.

(I've tried to explain why I feel certain things should changed. If you disagree, please say so and state why! Thanks!)

[Dalvyn]

It's actually quite possible to keep the glory -> stat exchange at 20 glory/stat point rate but add a limitation on how many times it can be done (for example, at most 2 such exchanges).

Of course, in order to apply it, we would have to reset everybody to their starting stats and give them back all their stat points (and glory points) so they can distribute them how they want. That would allow them to re-distribute them while having the limitations in mind.

[Grafghur]

Currently as it stands if you want a tank you get a wizard or preferrably a cleric. The role of the fighter is no longer needed in FK. The class that rp wise spends their whole time training to fight can't do it as effectively as the other classes.

I have seen many ideas, but to me the easiest solution is re-evaluating the heavy armor.

Fighters are the only class that will really use that armor, clerics are better suited to use medium (I could be wrong but heavy armor should make casting much more difficult)

So looking at it, heavy armor can be used to make the fighter class more effective. Skills are great, but other classes would argue that they would want new skills as well. And adding new skills wont make fighters use heavy armor, they'll take the skills and still use medium armor.

My main point is to make heavy armor useful. Make it an attractive choice to use for a fighter. I'm not really sure what the solution is (dmg absobtion, higher ac, more dex bonus.....)

Rangers get spells, tracking etc... Paladins their abilities and spells. Fighters should get their heavy armor. What's the point of having it in the game if it's not that great to use?

[Horace]

Of course, in order to apply it, we would have to reset everybody to their starting stats and give them back all their stat points (and glory points) so they can distribute them how they want. That would allow them to re-distribute them while having the limitations in mind.

This!

That idea is awesome, if it can be done. This wouldn't just fix the Fighter class, it'd also fix the huge disparity between old characters and new characters. You wouldn't need to change anything with fighters then. Diggin it.

I'm 100% for it.

[Vibius]

Call me crazy but I would like characters being given only 4 stats points through their whole career and feats according to the number given to their class.

This way no longer classes would overlap among themselves and the bonus extra feat given to humans would actually matter.

Of course, in order to apply it, we would have to reset everybody to their starting stats and give them back all their stat points (and glory points) so they can distribute them how they want. That would allow them to re-distribute them while having the limitations in mind.

Go for it!

[Rawlys]

Fighters are the only class that will really use that armor, clerics are better suited to use medium (I could be wrong but heavy armor should make casting much more difficult)

That would be correct, except that clerics use divine spells, not arcane spells. Heavy armor and shields affect arcane spell casting, while divine is able to use whatever armor they wish without penalty (as long as it's acceptable to thier deity and class).

You wouldn't need to change anything with fighters then

While I believe this is partially true, I still feel that combat bonus feats should be added in game. Of course, the addition of feats won't be a small task at all, but I think this is a step in the right direction.[/quote]

[Dapher]

Here is the only problem I see with the limitations on stat points. As it is right now, magical items do not stack. If you start doing quests, and you start getting magical items, they are not as useful as they used to be because they do not stack. You are taking away part of the advantage of the glory convert, as well as the magical item part. Perhaps allow the magical items to stack again, and put a limitation on the stat points. That way people still have a good reason to do quests, but a wizzard it not walking around with the ability to carry 324 pounds.

On the same token, certain faiths, when you supplicate you get two items that increase the same stat. Well, you obviously cannot sell that item, and that item was given to you by your God, therefore it is ment to be worn. You are limiting people that way. Possibly let items stack again, or change what some of the magical abilities are on those items.

[Tobias]

Not to mention that quests now adays require you to have some reallly high stats to trigger. Some require almost eighteen nineteen of one stat.

[Mouat]

although a reset of stats would eliminate my re-incarnations hps losses, I would prefer to do what Grafghur suggested, allowing for heavy armour to be used, rather than do a reset of all stats.

[Nedylene]

Restat of stats does mess with the "status quo" so to speak.. Besides then I would have to reapply to get my charisma set low low again one a certain alt O.o

[Solaghar]

I have done extensive combat testing with the new system, and there are some other things to consider. Number one is that heavy armor comes with an associated penalty... it's literally heavy. Unless one is wearing mithril fullplate which is extremely light, wearing a full suit of heavy armor will weigh heavily on a person's load level. Having a load anything above light affects one's AC in a negative fashion, hence just by wearing heavy armor, you can be canceling out some of the bonus. One thus needs a very high strength to get big benefits from heavy armor.

Number two is the cost. A full suit of studded leather armor can be purchased for about 5 platinum. I know of at least two dex trainers in the game who can train up to 20 dex, so I don't think it's particularly difficult to get to that level. A full suit of adamantine platemail armour for my Drow as an aside cost over 1500 platinum. Consider that... 1500 platinum versus 5 platinum. I've never seen titanium fullplate for sale, but I know mithril is also very expensive. A full suit of steel platemail would surely cost about 400-500 platinum.

Number three is heavy armor penalties. These I don't know the mechanics of exactly, but with abilities like dodge, I'm sure that as Velius mentions, lighter armor is more beneficial, I know that at least for training purposes this is so, you're far more likely to get a successful dodge at low levels with light armor than heavy.

Number four is the inherent benefits of dex bonus. Vibius suggests that fighters have more interesting things they can use their stat points for rather than waste them on dex, but dex is easily a fighter's third most important attribute after strength and con. In fact I'd argue that it might even tie con for second. High dexterity grants someone a high reflex saving throw, which is extremely important in terms of dealing with spellcasters. A fighter should be spending their points on dexterity regardless of whether they wear heavy armor or not.

I would argue that in general, I have never seen the usefulness of the various stats better-balanced than they are today. No one is able to max out every category by any means, and each one has several benefits... strength for attack bonus, damage, carry weight... con for hit points, movement and fortitude save, dex for number of things you can carry, AC bonus, reflex save, intelligence for speed of training and languages and spells for wizards, wisdom for many quests, cleric spells, experience gain and wisdom save, and charisma for experience gain, even more quests and bard spells. Anyone would be a fool to ignore any stat completely, would be activel ydamaging the long-term viability of their character if they tried to max out their other stats by dropping one to ridiculously low levels, and I just don't think this needs to be changed or certain stats made more or less important. I just think that heavy armor needs to be made more useful and fighters need to have what will really amount to nothing more than a few minor tweaks.

The main problem I have with heavy armor vs light armor is that the way they function simply isn't realistic, in fact it's almost insulting. AC determines whether attacks hit you or not, but the moment they hit you they do full damage. If your AC is the same, cloth armor will protect you from a sword as well as mithril fullplate. That is why I support some kind of damage reduction being brought into play, because heavier armor should mean more protection, less damage even when you are hit. It just seems obvious to me. If a goblin punching you can't do more than the 4 damage a suit of masterwork fullplate might reduce with every attack, oh well. I'm unaware of the game being built to the point where high level characters who can afford costly armor have generally been afraid of being punched to death by goblins or rats. This is part of D&D also, and just like our classes aren't necessarily balanced with one-another, weak and low-level monsters aren't necessarily balanced with players.

While other classes have obviously benefited from one or more of many of the changes which have taken place, I can't think of anything that has been done which has been particularly useful to fighters, which has I'm certain, left them feeling kind of left behind. Now that attacks are using all their proper rolls and taking AC into account, the vaunted fifth attack of a fighter is fairly nerfed. As in D&D, with every successive attack after the first hitting with a cumulative -5 penalty, the fifth attack hits at a -20 penalty, completely canceling out the base attack bonus of a level 50 character. In my opinion Rangers, by carrying a much smaller load, benefiting more from skills like dodge, a wider availability of several powerful magical armor pieces which are not available to fighters, a large number of Ranger-specific or themed quests, having a higher dex and the saving throw bonuses, as well as their spellcasting ability, really do outweigh fighters on every conceivable level except a few skills people rarely use and which aren't particularly helpful at the higher levels (kick, punch) and as I already mentioned, fifth attack. I don't know the specifics, but someone mentioned Rangers getting d10 HP the same as fighters here, whereas in 3rd edition Rangers get d8. If that is not already the case, I would agree it should be altered to reflect that.

On the other hand I disagree that Paladins have it much better than fighters. Paladins have high stat requirements in wisdom and charisma which fighters don't need to worry about if they choose not to. They are even more inclined to wear heavy armor than base fighters, and have serious RP restrictions to boot. I wish we had more Paladins if anything.

My opinion for what should be done to benefit fighters stands here... some sort of damage reduction for heavy armors, and the completion of several fighter-only feat trees, alongside the introduction of bonus feats for fighters, perhaps as many as one every 10 levels for a total of 5 additional. With a much wider variety of feats having particularly useful effects upon AC, weapon specialization, fighting styles, etc... I think fighters would come to play their standard role once more. One major difference between us and D&D is that a priest or wizard can run out of spells and hence they need to conserve, they need to use melee at times, they need to memorize their spells and then find that they're completely useless in the situation they're in. Here it's a small matter for a spellcaster to forget their spell and memorize a new one in a few seconds with meditate. Fighters are supposed to be so valuable simply because they can keep killing, on and on, dealing out massive amounts of melee damage while heavily armored, even when spellcasters in their group have long since run out of spells. That just isn't the case here, and as fighters can't fulfill their predestined purpose, they are falling behind the other classes.

fake edit - (crossposting from the light armor vs heavy armor thread)

[Tobias]

wow I mean it just wow.. You summed up all of the problems with fighters Solaghar! -claps-

[Rawlys]

Nice post Solaghar. While I do agree on quite a bit of what you've posted, there are a few things that I would like to add to/point out.

1) Having a heavy load does not decrease your AC automatically. If you were relying on your Dex bonus as an AC modifier, then yes, having a medium or heavy load would affect your AC.

2) Agreed that heavy armor is dang expensive. Magical heavy armor is even more so.

3) As per D20, dodge is a feat that adds a +1 to your dodge AC (against your current foe, singular). This is not limited by your armor. The skill dodge (in FK) has been moved from an actual action of avoiding a sucessful strike against you to an AC bonus. Now, whether or not it is affected by armor type and how high of a skill you have in it, I don't know. But from reading a previous post about the combat system, dodge is affected by something.

4) Agreed on this part as well.

It's not about stats being balanced. In fact, that's about the farthest thing you want to stay away from. Having rogues, bards, wizards, and fighters all have a Str of 18 and a Con of 18 just doesn't seem good. I believe there are plenty of reasons for this, with the primary one: This exploits the strengths and weakenesses of different classes on different levels.

Of course there are reasons why you would want to have a high stat score on any given stat... there's benefits of having high stat scores. But as I said before, you should have to chose where you spend your points based upon your class and what kind of RP you're going to have, not because of quest triggers.

On light vs heavy armor and AC: Light armor allows someone to be nimble in avoiding attacks, not deflecting them. Heavy armor doesn't allow you to be nimble which means you'll get hit more, but those hits won't cause damage. Upon a sucessful hit to someone with heavy armor, they found the weak spot and caused damage, which is why we have damage levels of 1d4,1d6, 1d8, etc. All hits aren't going to be full strength when it comes to damage. Same goes with light armor: If you're avoiding an attack and still get hit, it may only be a glancing blow, so you might not recieve the full damage of that attack.

I like the new changes that have been made in the game. Not necessarily all the effects of the changes but rather, the fact that it's a step in the right direction of moving away from MUD/second edition hybrid to 3.5. It has already been said that there is another project being worked on for feats, so that's another step. The saving throw implementation was another step. This whole topic is another step. There has been and will continue to be growing pains and frankly, I'm willing to endure the struggles so that I can enjoy the aftermath later on (And for the record, I'm not speaking directly to you Solaghar. This is me rambling).

"Fixing" the heavy armor situation is not a solution in the bigger scheme of things. A modification of price would certainly be welcomed, but that's not the only thing that will make fighters more useful. As you said earlier, Solaghar, combat feats would be a huge improvement to the usefulness of a fighter.

In a near perfect FK (opinions):
- BAB's would be class and level dependent
- Numbers would be visible by choice and not always hidden with words
- Characters would have a reasonable number of stat points
- Fighters would have combat bonus feats
- A highly dexterious character could have a nearly equivalent AC as a well armored fighter with magical armor
- Attacks of opportunities would be a normal occurance (picking up weapons, removal of armor, casting a spell)
- Spells would go off after nearly a full round of action, based on spell (right before the spell caster's next action)
- Attacking and casting a spell would be seperate actions
- Fighters could guard/defend others in their group (unless more than two opponents)

I'm sure there are plenty more things that *I* would like, but my brain power is running low tonight. As always, please comment and state reasons why. Thanks!

[Dalvyn]

- Dodge is coded to work as per d20 rules. It does not matter AT ALL whether you wear light or heavy armour.


- Heavy armour and damage reduction. The example you provide is biased. Of course, if a goblin punches a fighter in full platemail, the fighter shouldn't be damaged at all. Same if someone with a short sword hits the same fighter. The idea is that if your attack roll HITS, then you did not hit the armour but found a weak spot. That can be a punch on the side, in-between the front and the back plates; it can be a punch with an open hand in the neck or whatever.

DR was used before, and it lead to mobs being wimps because they didn't have weapons. That's a concrete problem with no simple solution (except perhaps revisiting all areas - and then again, they would still run out of weapons after a time). Armour is expressed in terms of hit or miss, not in terms of damage reduction; that's D&D system. A DR-based system can perfectly work, but then everything else (including weapon damage) must be revised as well.


- All stats are useful. I beg to differ. Introducing d20 saves made Wisdom a bit more useful, but Charisma remains clearly underused. We are actually thinking about ways to make it more efficient, but it currently is not.


- Penalties with Xth attacks. The cumulative -5 penalty has not only been added for fighters, but for all characters. That means that cumulative attacks for other classes have also been reduced in power. And the same holds for mobs too. So, in essence, it is false that fighters have been relatively wimped down, in comparison with other classes/mobs.


Other than that, there are good and interesting ideas. Personally, I would be much more receptive to them if they weren't presented in such a "demagogic" way though.

[Lathlain]

6. A taunt skill runs the risk of forcing a PC into doing something the player wouldn't want. I can easily anticipate cries of "foul" when a fighter uses a taunt skill to enrage an player opponent who feels that his/her character is too disciplined to ever fall for such a ruse. Even allowing for a wisdom-based saving throw might not be enough.

I believe this would be better replaced by an 'engage' skill, whereby the user closes the space between them and the target and begins raining down volleys of hits - the idea being that if the target -doesn't- respond they get cut to ribbons. It would have the same code effect as taunt to all intents and purposes but a fighter can't protest that their discipline would overrule it in the light of this.

I am very much in favour resetting the stat points incidentally, though I must ask how the base stats that the characters would be reset to are contrived. Do all races have base stats, or does each character have a character file where their original chosen stats are kept? If this could be worked out in a way that balanced all characters to a typical current level, that would be grand - especially considering the different rates of stat point progression specifically in the MUD's earlier days and the period of time where it was possible to train a stat beyond the normal boundary.

[Solaghar]

- Dodge is coded to work as per d20 rules. It does not matter AT ALL whether you wear light or heavy armour.

I was basing my statement on how I understood dodge to work previously, and in the old days one had to train it to be of any useful level, and it was more successful when one wore light armor. If it's been changed and whether one wears full plate armor or light armor now has no effect not just on whether dodge works or not but on training dodge as well then I happily retract my statement.

- All stats are useful. I beg to differ. Introducing d20 saves made Wisdom a bit more useful, but Charisma remains clearly underused. We are actually thinking about ways to make it more efficient, but it currently is not.

I agree of all of them charisma is the least-used, but that's true in D&D as well to an extent. But the point I was trying to make is that never before in FK have stats been so well-balanced, it's lauditory.

- Penalties with Xth attacks. The cumulative -5 penalty has not only been added for fighters, but for all characters. That means that cumulative attacks for other classes have also been reduced in power. And the same holds for mobs too. So, in essence, it is false that fighters have been relatively wimped down, in comparison with other classes/mobs.

I would say that relative to rangers, fighters have been wimped down. I like the new system, but in the old system the frequency of getting an attack in was based on the skill to which you had the attack trained. But now the more attacks you add, the less real benefit that they give because they will rarely hit. Fighters could now have 20 attacks and I would imagine it wouldn't make any difference, because none of them would ever hit except critical hits. Hence the point I was trying to make... if one component of Rangers and Fighters having been nominally 'balanced' in the past was that fighters got a fifth attack while rangers only had four, the absolute value of a fifth attack having been diminished reduces the value of said attack in balance terms.

I like all of the changes that have been made very much, I simply think that fighters have been left behind, as each other class has had some changes which benefited them, whereas fighters have simply seen the relative value of both their high number of attacks and their heavy armor reduced.

[Selveem]

I hate taking things from other classes. I really, really don't like it. I actually LIKE that casters can just meditate and regain all their spells in a few minutes. I _like_ that casters can add more flavor to fights by each of their spells being able to be cast basically as a fast action or greater.

If you wanted to be fair, however, not only would wizards only cast that round, but they'd not be able to cast more than one spell without a feat. Fifth attack (even if it didn't miss) seems much less powerful when a wizard can cast flensing/polar ray/disintigrate/whatever 2x/round then next round vampiric touch to heal themselves completely.

I personally don't want to see that happen. Honestly, I like that casters have firepower. It's nice. It makes the classes far less boring. I do think however that melee needs that same amount of umph. From what I understand, every spell does 2.5x the normal amount to make up the hp gained by characters which is 2.5x the amount.

Has melee damage been increased by 2.5x the total amount (AKA: 1d8+strength mod, then *2.5? Per attack?) If so, it certainly doesn't feel like it. And, if that were the case, why is stoneskin so relevent versus mobs and PvP? I know very well it's hardly that powerful in D&D.

I've really, really enjoyed most of the suggestions here. There are only a few I disagree with. And one thing I'd like to add on, maybe heavy armor doesn't add damage reduction for all, but perhaps fighters could have a seperate feat they could take that would do just that? I don't know anymore.

Other than that, there are good and interesting ideas. Personally, I would be much more receptive to them if they weren't presented in such a "demagogic" way though.

I think, in this instance, that anyone should be able to ignore the emotion or strength of words used and instead appreciate that there is a reason why so many people are standing up for fighters and using strong words or provoking emotion. We _have_ fallen behind; we'd like that changed.

Edited to include: By the way, the fast casting is not the only ability that makes casters ridiculously powerful. It's the offensive shielding spells. Many times you're going to die just from those alone. Especially combined with blade barrier. I know I dueled Arlen and all she had to do was keep her stoneskin up and let fireshield completely pwn me.

[Velius]

Dodge is coded to work as per d20 rules. It does not matter AT ALL whether you wear light or heavy armour.

Dodge
=====
Syntax: operates automatically

Dodge is a skill which assists in the evasion of incoming attacks. If
you are successful, your opponent's attack misses and you take will
take no damage. Dodge is an automatic skill and requires no weapon.

* This skill is affected by the type of armour you wear. Heavier armour
will increase the chance of failure in this skill.

I'll send that to the Help-File thread.

[Rawlys]

Oo! Another idea: Prior to moving into an area/room with a hostile mob, a character can visibly see the mob and prepare himself for engagement, negating the surprise attack. I would think this could be available for all classes, giving noticable value to improved initiative.

(Something simular was mentioned earlier of sensing an incoming attack and reacting before the other mob)

[Grafghur]

- Numbers would be visible by choice and not always hidden with words

Although I think it would nice, it's not the direction this mud has taken. I like it the way it is now, it minimizes the min/max you would have otherwise.

- A highly dexterous character could have a nearly equivalent AC as a well armored fighter with magical armor

I would have to highly disagree on this. You can already train you Dex to 20 and buy cheap light armor. Why would the easy path equal one where one does all sorts of quests to get the best heavy armor? Again, it makes heavy armor useless

- Attacks of opportunities would be a normal occurrence (picking up weapons, removal of armor, casting a spell)

That sounds quite reasonable. As is, if you miss a bash or a disarm, the other mob/player gets an attack of opportunity. This isn't the case if you miss a spell etc.. let alone cast a spell while holding a weapon. Shouldn't you be gesturing with your hands or something?

- Spells would go off after nearly a full round of action, based on spell (right before the spell caster's next action)

You could even extend this and have spells have casting times, slower ones for curtains spells, and longer ones for complicated spells

- Attacking and casting a spell would be separate actions

Agreed... though I'm starting to feel this thread is moving away from 'fixing' the fighters

- Fighters could guard/defend others in their group (unless more than two opponents)

Great idea, though correct me if I'm wrong, but you can already do this, you just rescue everyone and take all the hits from the mobs in the room. But again, you're better off having a cleric do this as they can take and deal much more damage than a fighter

I still don't quite agree with those that think heavy armor is fine as is. I ask you, why have it in the game if it's not good to use?

Perhaps one thought is to have a AC bonus for JUST the fighters (Wouldn't want clerics getting even tougher) of they use heavy armor on the legs/arms/chest.. Thoughts?