Fly + Mount = Very Bad?

Emrys · Post by **Emrys** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:49 pm

This might not be a bug, but it was an unwelcome surprise.

I have Low level character, not very skilled in mount. Had just bought a painted horse.

A wizard offered to cast 'fly' on the horse. I accepted.

Apparently, it is harder to ride a flying horse. I fell off. I went from 100% health to _diemsg_ instantly.

I'm guessing my mount was flying VERY high. I had no inkling accepting a 'fly' spell on my mount would be so dangerous. (I suspect the wizard had no idea, either - I don't think he was trying to kill me).

Larethiel · Post by **Larethiel** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:08 pm

That doesn't seem to be a bug, just bad....luck. Falling from a horse deals damage, falling from a flying horse, deals more damage because of heights etc. which can, on low levels, certainly kill a PC. I have seen that happen before.

Presumable you learn to not cast fly on a horse. Poor animal, they're not made to fly anyways

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:36 am

I don't know if this is a bug or not.

I do know that I think that your riding ability should be based on your 'mount' skill.

I don't care if your mount is flying, levitating, or dead. Either way, you know how to hold on.

If you want to be fair about falling damage, a character who is flying and his spell runs out before typing 'land' should take a good amount of falling damage. Yes, I have a Wizard. Yes, this would affect me too. No, I don't mind.

I just don't see the reasoning behind making something like this so difficult that even a GM at mount skill should be falling off their personal Griffon.

It seems the common perception on FK that events such as these are not "bugs," but "intentional" negative side-affects of code (AKA: "features). Generally this belief favors the code over the player. I'm hoping this changes in the future and events such as these can be considered bugs.

Edited to include: The above paragraph is in NO way directed at anyone in particular; least of all the player of Larethiel. Just something that was on my mind.

Balek · Post by **Balek** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:01 am

I don't know about other people, but after one of my characters gets to around adept or expert in mount I rarely if ever fall off a horse or griffon when the mount has a saddle. I have a couple characters who are GM and it's been ages since they've fallen.

Harroghty · Post by **Harroghty** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:07 am

Yes, I agree, Selveem. A grandmaster shouldn't be falling off the horse. That's a good chunk of experience for that kind of "new guy" mistake but, I also agree with Balek; I really don't see that happening (with a saddle).

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:29 am

This is based only upon my own experience, so don't take it as the final word...

Regardless of your level in the mount skill, there remains a chance of falling off of a mount if the mount is not wearing one of either a saddle or a bridle.

As noted above, being GM and the mount having a saddle means that you rarely, if ever, fall off.

The lack of a saddle or bridle seems to have a far greater impact than the Mount skill level so being poor in the Mount skill and not having a saddle usually means that you are falling off every few squares.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:12 pm

To add a dimension to the damage explanation: in my experience, the speed at which you are traveling when you fall off also plays a role in how much damage you take. Since flying speeds are generally quite fast, that also amplifies the damage one experiences when falling off a flying mount.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:11 pm

I think the point was it shouldn't matter whether or not you're wearing a saddle.

A GM is a GM. Should rarely, if ever, be falling off of a mount (flying or non-).

Most Rangers or Druids would be loathe wear a saddle just to ensure (at GM) they do not fall off a mount.

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:35 pm

There are currently in the mud several if not over dozens solutions for player characters who feel that their mount should not be wearing a conventional saddle. I applaud the builders and designers that took the time to design these items for characters that would otherwise not use saddles.

And for those that choose not to use saddles as per their rp, well in light of what I mentioned above, tf you enjoy the rp, then falling occasionally seems a fair trade off. The inconvenience of code does not mean you have to halt your rp as long as it is well within the rules.

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:58 pm

I think the point was it shouldn't matter whether or not you're wearing a saddle.

I don't think I saw that question raised in the posters original comments

A GM is a GM. Should rarely, if ever, be falling off of a mount (flying or non-).

Being a grandmaster in a skill is not a 'never fails' scenario and I don't feel it should be.

I'm no expert on the history of horse-riding, but I couldn't find any references to cultures which did not use a blanket, saddle, halter or bridle in some form or another.

If those real-life grandmasters used these devices, I see no inconsistency in the game making riding easier with and harder without.

Most Rangers or Druids would be loathe wear a saddle just to ensure (at GM) they do not fall off a mount.

I understand what you're saying here, but most characters who go beyond the idea of an animal as a companion and on to the concept of harnessing the animal as a mount or pack animal have already left behind the nature-focused element of the RP in my opinion.

Echoing what Oghma said, several builders have taken steps to create more suitable riding equipment for those who want to reflect the nature focus.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:56 pm

Kelemvor, you're right. It wasn't the original concern but very closely resembles the concerns found in another thread:

http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtop ... highlight=

Now, I'm about to upset a good number of people, I'm sure, but I feel it needs to be said.

First, let me preface what I'm about to say with this: I applaud the builders creating special items that can be used 'as saddles' that actually aren't. That's great!

However, (and here's the part where I'll likely draw a lot of fire from), I consider this a patch. It's a bandaid. Any way you look at it, it's a "fix" for an issue seen elsewhere (elsewhere meaning the way the code currently works).

Most like to compare FK to table top, so I'll do just that:

GM mount's D&D equivelent would be at least 23: 4 skill points to be placed in ride for the first, level, +19 more points (1 per each level up to 19).

With 23 ride, it _is_ possible to fall off, but preeeetty unlikely. Especially when you include stats and the like. In D&D, you don't do a ride check for every couple of feet your horse moves. Well, maybe, if your GM is rather nasty.. But not generally speaking.

In the MUD, there is no 'set amount' of distance within rooms from what I understand. Especially not within towns (feel free to correct me on either, but I can't find a correlation).

Sure, it may be funny once in a while but to trust your fate wholely on whether or not you have a saddle or not seems rather unfair.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:27 pm

To be honest, it sometimes is just plain luck wether or not you fall off even with the saddle and bridles.
I have one character who literally fell off her horse every five seconds when she was learning.
I have another one who never fell off her horse more than once the entire time and she didn't HAVE any on the horse besides her butt.

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:06 pm

Requiring a saddle, even for GMs, is not a bug. Which means that builders creating suitable items for nature-types to use as a saddle is not a patch or a band-aid.

If those items did not exist, then players would fall into two camps: those who used an obvious saddle to save them falling and those who stuck with a hard RP of not treating their companions as minions and took the bruises.

Myself, I have no problem with either choice. I also have no problem with how the skill and skill-fail is currently coded. But that doesnt prevent those who feel otherwise from offering alternative suggestions in the noted post in the skills forum.
I've only seen one suggestion in that other thread thus far, so to say here that this isn't how it should be and the need for a saddle is thus unfair is a little premature.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:22 pm

Moving this to the skills section since it is now a skill discussion and not a bug report.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:58 pm

Sorry, I missed your response, but I would like to comment about this here:

Kelemvor wrote:If those items did not exist, then players would fall into two camps: those who used an obvious saddle to save them falling and those who stuck with a hard RP of not treating their companions as minions and took the bruises.

I think this is kind of my point as to why I'm calling this a bandaid. FK prides itself on "RP First!" kind of belief. Well, having spoken to another well-known Ranger who is seen as a very good RPer, the player admitted that they were forced to make a decision to give their horse a saddle even though their Ranger (if they imagined them as real) wouldn't wear one.

A Ranger (or anyone else) who puts all their points into Ride skill in D&D wouldn't be falling off a horse like they do in FK if they didn't put a saddle on. I don't understand why there is such resistence here. I will quote Nedylene:

I am an equestrian. While wildly out of practice now in my prime (Oh say.... seven years ago) I was eventing training level and training prelim (anyone here know what that means?) .... Out of fun we used to hop on our horses bareback and go train in the cross country field going over 4' jumps, down ditches, galloping up hills etc and of the group of four of us MAYBE 1 of us fell off bareback a MONTH.

No offense to Nedylene or her friends, but none of them can hardly be considered GM in FK terms or base 23 skill in FK terms. If they can do it, a GM damn well better be able to.

Nedylene · Post by **Nedylene** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:16 pm

My problem with being a GM mount and riding bareback is not that you fall off but the frequency of falling off. On average as a GM you fall off every 4-5 rooms. VERY occassionally you will get lucky and stay on for 10-12 rooms but that is the RARITY. You should rarely fall off as GM but it does happen. Top dressage riders like Anky has olympic gold metals and she still falls off WITH a saddle. But the frequency that she falls off is NOT as frequent as riding here in FK with a GM mount rank.

Rhianon · Post by **Rhianon** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:59 pm

Please look at this and then tell me you can't ride a horse when they are flying.........without a saddle and bridle.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... d=27197001

Dranso · Post by **Dranso** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:22 pm

Do you stats affect how well you do at mount more than if you had a saddle?

Mouat · Post by **Mouat** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:31 pm

What if you are wearing a cloak or cape, I think I could glide down safely, something to do with that force of drag = force of gravity thing...

My flying mounts are pretty smart, I trained them for years. They are so skilled that even if I fall off at great heights, they will come down and catch me before falling...

On the serious side, I was thinking of a safety tether as well, so if I do fall of, i'm only dangling upside down while my mount is still flying... which would sound reasonable. I mean who would go flying on a mount without one? Perhaps mouat will start making them and selling them to flyers...