Alignment

Tierney · Post by **Tierney** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:30 am

Just want to get everyone's opinion on this. In my mind, the lawful and chaotic part of the alignment is more important then the good and evil. I mean, there are (not in this mud, but in D&D) paladins that are evil (anti-paladins) and thieves that are good, but there can not be a lawful thief or a chaotic paladin. Does anyone else think that these are the more important part of alignment to rp?

Tierney Everlost
I like the Waterdeep dungeon. You meet the nicest people there.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:29 am

Law and Chaos can be a thin line to walk. Chaotic Good people generally break less laws than Chaotic evil, and Lawful Evil people break even less laws than Chaotic Good. A chaotic good person might believe they are doing good and ultimately creating more evil from their chaos, but at the same time a Lawful Evil politician may do good deeds just to get a popular vote.

Summary of my opinion: All four are equally important, only some parts work with certain classes for good reasons.

Cyric · Post by **Cyric** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:09 am

I agree with Isaldur, however, I view each and every alignment differntly. If someone were to be Chaotic Good, it defines how they would go about fixxing a problem. They are the vigilante, the defender of good at all costs. The will break the laws to get the results they want, but ultimatly work towards the good of all people. That differs GREATLY from lawful good. Lawful good will follow all laws to a tee, continuing to work towards good of all.

Each alignment has a specific outlook on how to handle situations and I encourage you to go to the FK link's website and look up Valcrads (sp?) guide to alignments.

--Cyric

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:22 am

Just a partial answer, related to the comment that "There can be no lawful thief". I think that, on the contrary, in several situations, you can find lawful thieves, that is, thieves that respect a "code of honor" / "set of laws" they promised to respect.

A militaristic organization of spies would consists mostly of lawful thieves: it is quite likely that they have to swear to respect some rules (mostly about keeping members' identity secret and obeying their superiors' orders about what missions to complete).

The members of an assassin guild would most likely be lawful (evil): in this case, you can think of rules of secrecy and rules related to how to properly complete a "job".

In the two examples above, the (chaotic) members who have a hard time respecting the rules will often be removed (in one way or another) from the organization.

Actually, I think that most thief organizations (city thief guilds, assassin guilds, mafia-like organizations, ...) would have several lawful members. On the other side of the alignment scale, chaotic thieves would rather tend not to work very well in large groups because they are individualists(thugs, small, unorganized, groups of bandits, ...).

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:54 pm

Agreed Dalvyn, unless there's some huge very evil Chaotic/Neutral Evil guy at the top of the chain who's word is law and all the chaotics follow it out of fear of being put in alot of pain. As for vigilantism, not all Chaotic Good characters will be against every single law, while a vigilante is a good choice just look at all those other shows and movies with the prime example....the Police Officer/Detective who is always in trouble with the Chief. They do their job, they are good people, yet they constantly go over the "Line" of the law in their zeal for punishing or catching the bad guys.

And not to hijack the thread to another topic but in AD&D your alignment doesn't define you, you define your alignment. Alignment is supposed to change with character development. If you lean more towards lawful towards your older years then that's that, Alignment is not meant to stifle character development.

Granel · Post by **Granel** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:16 pm

Personally, I chose my alignment so that I could have my char cope and ineract with most people without others thinking he has gone insane.

The way I see things is that most in general make choices that followq their alighnment, but some have hiccups when they are left with no choice but to go agains what they would usually do, or for that matter, do things that one of their type would not do. mortals have flaws and often or not show those flaws. the only thing you have to think about is, what will happen when you do something out of type? Will a guard boot you out of the city? will a boulder fall from the sky and land on you? or will your god or godess come down and express his or her ire at what you have done. It is not a chore o follow a way of morals or anti-morals but it pays to try and follow them, but most importantly to never assume that an alighnment is determinable (which was probably already said) sometimes what served well in the past often means as much as a hill of beans in the present set of mind of a char.

That to some the good are ruly evil and to others the evils of this world are all the goodness ever needed. Either way, everything is interpreted differently.

or you just can be neutral

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:47 am

I have to disagree with you Isaldur. I think that the leader of an evil organization is definately going to be Lawful evil. They set the rules, evil as those rules may be, but they want them followed.

Granel · Post by **Granel** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:41 am

What about the leadership of the Ebon Spur? They seem terribly unorganized and contrary. They are more likely to kill one another than do anything relevant to a successful undertaking, Of course they wouldn't exist if they were not successful on some ocassions.

Cherishinar · Post by **Cherishinar** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:59 am

Leadership of evil organisations is as likely to be Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil as it is Lawful Evil. The reason is fear and strength. Even a Lawful Evil rules by a certain degree of fear and strength. You cross a Lawful Evil they will, within laws of land, (usually made by themselves) find a way to remove you. Cross one of the other evil aligns and you will be hunted and killed or worse. Chaotic an Neutral Evil alignments would follow the rules of an organization at their whim or out of fear knowing that to break them has usually fatal consequence. They would join the organization to further their own ends and gain protection, strength, wealth whatever it is.
A Lawful Evil would be very unlikely to break the rules and they would build a powerbase to supplant the current leader and even then would use the structure of the organization against the old leader in order to replace them if at all possible.

A Lawful Evil is a 'lawyer', they follow their word of honor to the letter, not to the spirit of the agreement. They will look for loopholes to exploit for their benefit. Lawful Evil is often the more insidious kind of evil in most instances. A Lawful Evil being example would be the various Devils. You can make your pact with them but do not expect the results you were hoping for even when they give their word or are forced by spell to do your bidding. You have to be very precise in your wording. They are a rigid caste system where authority is from power and ranking but use of treachery is common means of advancement.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:30 pm

See, the thing is Lawful Evil people make rules and laws to help protect their station and everything that Cherishinar described almost perfectly. Chaotic Evils rule by fear and strength alone, their only law is that they have no laws but for the basic few.

Survival of the Fittest
Stay alive
Do whatever your hearts content

Now these aren't laws persay but more whims. Will a Chaotic Evil just go off and attack anyone and everyone no matter whom they are? Well that's up to their intelligence level and wisdom's common sense. Orcs tend to be a good example of Chaotic Evil leadership, or the infighting faith of Cyric (Even after he's cured of insanity). Does this mean a Chaotic Evil person is just a crazy brute however? No way. A Chaotic Evil person might be a serial killer who hides behind the sophisticated mask of a fine music appreciating intellectual, aka Hannibal Lecter anyone? Being Chaotic doesn't mean you break the laws when it means your life in jeoparidy. Just like Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid, Chaotic Evil is not Chaotic Stupid.

Beshaba · Post by **Beshaba** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:02 pm

The only problem I see with any chaotic leadership is the hint of randomness there. Once upon a time a friend of mine ran a game where all of the PCs were of some fey variety, pixies, sprites, ect. In this particular game system the fey never really took anything seriously, and my friend stressed this again and again through character creation.

We started the campaign and my friend found that this concept was a rather bad one, because her storyline required some very serious thinking and actions, yet all of us refused to take anything seriously...

CN is what I have always considered a sociopathic level of thinking, a person who knows the difference between right and wrong but does not think those rules apply to them. CE knows the difference and just doesn't care, they work off of whim and personal desire. CG sees personal freedoms as more important than the 'rules' that other people make up, but they will follow rules that maintain the greater good. All of these alignments are chaotic, but the good/neutral/evil defines just how far someone is willing to go to.

Would a chaotic evil person kill someone who stole from them. Most likely yes. Would a chaotic neutral? Maybe, it would depend on the circumstances and the situation. Would a chaotic good? Most likely not.

Many would claim that the chaotics believe in some form of anarchy, but true anarchist thinking assumes that all people are good by nature. You do not need rules or laws, because people on their own will manage to find the proper course of action to handle the situation. This is not true and why anarchism doesn't work.

Tierney · Post by **Tierney** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:22 pm

Most definately. If you break the law you go to jail, no matter what your alignment. Its just that a chaotic will most likely spend more time in jail than a lawful. And spend way more time complaining about being in jail. I've also found that, being chaotic, my character gets along better with other chaotics, good or evil, and tends to get argumentitive around lawfuls, good or evil. Which is why I asked the question in the first place.

I can't help but feel that last post was directed at me because my character did attack a thief in waterdeep and was arrested for it. Let me just say that while IC I complain about it every chance I get, OOC I agree that I needed to go to jail for the action. And IC I complain about Lady Honoria throwing back in for rudeness, while OOC I loved every second of it. Whichever Imm was controlling Honoria, thanks, it was great!

Cavalcante · Post by **Cavalcante** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:37 pm

I've read everything I could find in-game and on the new and old boards about alignment and alignment changes (which isn't to say I've read everything there *is* on the subject, just what I could find). I still have one question, though, that I was hoping someone could help me out with.

Is any alignment change considered flat-out impossible? I mean, I'm not suggesting anything like a murderous orc who's never RPed at all being overcome by the beauty of the sunset and changing from CE to LG... I'm just curious if any alignment change is technically possible, given that the character invests enough RP and has legitimate reason for it to happen.

Thanks...

~Cavalcante

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:40 pm

Applications are the greatest things in the world.

Pakur · Post by **Pakur** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:59 pm

Lately i've noticed that there aren't many evil aligned characters on. It gets boring when there aren't evil aligned people on, the few who play evil characters have no one to speak to, and those of good align have no antagonists to scapegoat. With the lack of evil characters online, I believe both good aligned and evil aligned characters suffer in roleplay. So I urge you to consider playing an evil aligned character, in my opinion, they can be heaps of fun.
- R

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:50 pm

Actually, I play my evil character quite often lately, and the RP between him and um...a mob of goodies has been quite good, even an imm stepped in and had fun one time. I agree though, play more evils people, I know I love all six of my evil characters and they probably are some of my most complex characters I have on this mud. I love the people who do play evils, even against the lack of RP, for I rarely see an imm come down and RP with evils as much as they do with goods, and events? Dont even think about. Hey, if you wanna see alot more evils, come up with an event and send it in, im sure everyone will get on their evil and have great fun. Im not saying goodies are bad, but they can be boring sometimes.

Tazmin · Post by **Tazmin** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:59 am

Perhaps the reason people do not play evils is because it is very hard to play, or it is to contrary to there own nature. The latter is why I do not play them and believe me I tried. =)

There is a big diffrence in evil types to. A lot of people who want to go the evil route turn into the jerk evil type. Those kinds of evils are generally worse then no evils at all. Not all evils are kill rob and maim types. Sometimes a good scheme that takes months real time to work is better then the quick draw. =)

Tandria · Post by **Tandria** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:42 am

I have an evil I rarely play, but it's only because I get too scared of offending people and being mean.

I'm too soft, it's my nature.

Anyone recommend a good mode of RP for being mean. . . ?

Delamen · Post by **Delamen** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:09 am

I can recommend hundreds Tandria, and if it's against your nature to be nasty, this could be a good outlet for exploring that side of your personality, if it exists.

Unfortunatly, it seems the main reason people don't play evils is the lack of RP possibilities in Zhentil Keep. There aren't usually many people sitting in Zhent Square to RP with at most times of the day. And, also unfortunatly, it seems to be self-perpetuating. The more people feel this way, the more it will remain the same.

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:55 am

Delamen wrote:Unfortunatly, it seems the main reason people don't play evils is the lack of RP possibilities in Zhentil Keep. There aren't usually many people sitting in Zhent Square to RP with at most times of the day. And, also unfortunatly, it seems to be self-perpetuating. The more people feel this way, the more it will remain the same.

Not all of being evil is sitting in a square discussing the finer points of religion, or sipping tea, or starring at a fountain. *looks at Waterdeep*

Not all evils like Zhentil keep, Cyricans are just to uptight when it comes to THIER religion. *points to several I know*

And if you know a few your bound to know the rest eventually. I recommend getting out of ZK and exploring and enchancing your 'evillyness-essicus' with the 'goodies' that way they know your there, or better yet.. Make them inclined to think your one of them then rip out their heart, dance, sing drink.. Lather, rince, repete

Alignment

Law and Chaos, more important than Good and Evil?

Alignment Changes

Playing Evil Aligned Characters