Possessed Undead

[Raona]

Raona is quite dedicated to the teachings of Kelemvor, though a follower of Tyr. Of late, she has encountered several possessed undead creatures. She has an idea of how to deal with this IC, though will be seeking out IC confirmation of her beliefs on the matter, but this is OOC:

These creatures require a MURDER command to kill/lay to rest. If one can not find their possessor/creator and/or doesn't have time for an extended RP, should they be left alone, whatever the PC's IC feelings on undead?

Thanks everyone!

[Lerytha]

Hmm... interesting one. If it was a mount, definitely not. A pet, certainly not. But if a necromancer (or any other mage who is into that sort of thing) is silly enough to leave such a creature you know, just standing around in areas where some dastardly goody-two-shoes would just go strolling by... I say they deserve to get their little undead minion "put to rest" by any passing vigilante of Kelemvor.

But... you could also say that if a goody-two-shoes leaves their pet in a place with some evil-doer could just go strolling by, they deserve to get their pet "put to rest". That's just to anticipate possible arguments, rather than expressiong any particular opinion.

I think, perhaps use your judgement. If it is an animated orc, just kill it. The PC is hardly going to miss it. There are plenty-plenty of them left. However, if it is an "animated umber hulk" or, "animated half-dragon knight" (or whatever), maybe leave it be? That way the kill without RP of their minion might hurt them more. Maybe look at it, and see if the PC has given the undead dude (or dudess) special weapons. If so, back off a bit? It can always be RPed out that you are wary of angering some uber necromancer of doom like Manshoon or Gwain (;)).

Other than just general consideration and common sense, I'm not sure what the general ruling is on this. I would be very interested in hearing the other arguments on either side.

Good question.

~Ol

[Scylere]

I left an animated corpse of Mistress Thann in a swamp. Someone passed by, saw it, and killed it. I was sad cause it was supposed to be a sacrifice to my goddess...bless her soul:D

[Mele]

Depends on the undead, IMO. :3

If you know it's something relatively harder to roleplay killing and animating, as well as kill code wise, you should be a -little- bit kinder.


Painbear Hunn was Daunyelle's good friend. :( May his gurgling dead little dead body rest in dead undead peace. :( But no, he wasn't killed from sitting alone on the road. Like Ollie said, you probably shouldn't leave em alone. But if they are, my first point again.

>:)

[Gwain]

My rules for dealing with undead range from ooc to ic. Ooc if I can murder it only that means it belongs to a pc, if the pc is not around to rp with it or no one is around I will sometimes question to see if it is alright to kill it. I would also look at the creature and consider the following: Does it look like a undead mount or pet? Should I attempt to kill something when the owner is not around? I am not a slave to my rp, I work with it but I keep fairness in mind oocly. It never hurts to ask if somethign is alright and if you are unsure you can always wait til later. If there is a backlash icly for not stopping every undead that you come by then at least you will be alright oocly for being patient. Non owned undead though...I see that they rest in peace

I'm a little more thoughtful then some, but it varies from case to case. Patience is a great thing. Like finding undead sitting in Waterdeep would be a difficult thing to deal with, but careful thinking and perspective planning will aid.

[Reiya]

On this topic I still feel like I need some clarification because there are differing opinions.

Say I'm on my ranger of Lathander and just outside the gates of Waterdeep I spot the "animated corpse of a ranger". Such an abomination not only assaults the tenets of my faith but also raises the need, so to speak, of putting a fallen comrade to his/her rightful rest. In instances like this, where I have a strong IC reason to kill the thing, is it alright to do so? Or is it similar to mounts and pets where killing them is frowned upon?

I checked the help file for "animate dead" but it didn't offer a solution except to say that they will remain animated until destroyed.

Any further insight into this would be greatly appreciated.

Reiya

[Harroghty]

I believe there is a strong reason to kill those animated creatures. Harroghty has killed the animated corpses of halfling children and any number of other mobiles he would never think of harming in their natural life. I believe that if you approach the attack with an appropriately in-character response (Harroghty, for example, is solemn about it with a brief prayer perhaps) and bury (or burn, or whatever you feel is appropriate) the corpse then you are role-playing your character and I do not see why there should be a problem with that.

An animated pet is perhaps best to leave alone in many cases (it may be part of someone's story-line) but you could defend your involvement in many cases as long as you preserve the opportunity for them to reclaim their things.

I'm not an adminstrator of course, but that's how I feel about it.

[Selveem]

I ran into a similar problem on my CG Fighter of Selune.

Knowing full well he'd not tolerate undead, I quickly found out I couldn't kill it without the murder command. I used ask channel and was provided some guidance. Ultimately, I did kill it but it was nothing unique or hard to obtain.

It all depends on the IC resolve of your character and the OOC fairness, just like Gwain said. I agree, though, that the exact opposite could be said about killing regular mounts/minions. Where do you draw the line? An Orc would have no problem eating some horse meat, but does that make it right? What if that mob that was animated was carrying some packs of stuff for the one who animated it? Now their pack is at risk until they can speed over (after noticing, finally, that it's been killed) to a crash.

In all reality, if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't. It would just be one of those things that you say OOCly to yourself: "My character didn't see it!" If that mob had've been carrying anything and the game crashed, I'd feel like a total prick.

[Horace]

if it doesn't have fancy stuff on it, just kill it. if it has fancy stuff, or you think it may have fancy stuff on it (mount), i'd gloss over it's existence and move on.

you don't want to cause someone losing a ton of equipment that's potentially irreplaceable.

[Nysan]

I try to consider three things, OOC reasoning mostly, but they come from having characters that raise things and characters that kill the raised.

Where is it? If it is in some random plains I would be more incline to kill it then if it was sitting in a gathering spot of the Keep.

Whats on it? Granted, most folks cannot see inventory. But if the lil fella does have something visibly worn, then it likely is more than a random "I'm bored" prayer/spell moment.

What is it? I put a value on what the mob animated is. Animated bandit? Wack away. Animated red dragon? Someone put a bit of effort into that.

If I can roll through those three OOC considerations and don't see much conflict, I would likely wack away. Of course, pass the 3 points or not, I try to find a nearby owner before taking a swing (or chant) at anything coded with a "murder" command.

[Keltorn]

Whats on it? Granted, most folks cannot see inventory. But if the lil fella does have something visibly worn, then it likely is more than a random "I'm bored" prayer/spell moment.

If you decide that the IC and OOC reasons for attacking such a creature are good, you could be on the safe side by going killmode stun and beating the thing senseless, then looking at it. Anyone can peek into a creature's inventory if the creature in question is stunned, so you could make sure there's not a pack of goodies or anything of real value on it before enacting the killing blow.

Or, erm... Rekilling blow? Stupid confusing undead.

[Reiya]

Hmm, that certainly clears up any confusion I had on the matter.
Thanks for everyone's input.

[Glim]

Awesome. Will start treating mounts the same as everyone treats undead here If you justify killing someone's minion just because your character hates them then possibly everyone here would be out of a horse/griffon/etc right now.

Mounts are pets are undead are minions. They all require actual PK RP to undergo with the owner of said mobile. I really don't care how much your character hates undead, or horses, or minions, if you happen to find one alone without it's owner, it would be best to pass it up or include some RP with the owner before it is dead.

[Enig]

I sort of see where you're coming from, Glim, but I do think that the location of the undead in particular ought to be taken into account. If you've got an undead thingamajig out in a field minding it's own business that's fair enough, but if you have your undead sitting in the market square or clogging up the entrance to a lathanderite temple, or some other equally implausible location, I honestly think that's bordering on 'cheating', exploiting the fact that NPCs don't have free will and cannot respond in a logical fashion. Based on the fact that the undead would be quite probably dispatched by the local guard/adventurers/priests/etc., I think the owners give up the rights to have their mounts protected by leaving them sitting about by themselves in a highly dangerous (to them) environment.

Just to put it up here I think the reverse is true, too, and if a goodly human paladin leaves their gallant steed standing idle inside an orcish encampment it should logically turn into horse jerky at some point.

[Harroghty]

I agree with Enig on this. Yes, it is conceivable that a PC could get away with murdering a NPC in their own house but it is pretty unbelievable that you could kill Mistress Thann (for example) and walk her shambling dead body towards the market without remark. Yes, Faerun has some odd sights and a powerful evil PC would be avoided like the plague by the citizens but, after people would dart inside and close the shutters, they would run as soon as you passed and soon you'd have the watch chasing after. What's more: if the act was horrible enough the people might overcome their fear in outrage and numbers and you'd be dragged off by a group of terrified and angry people.
Naturally risk is also incurred by leaving your horse on the streets of Westgate unattended (robbery) or a paladin going for a stroll through Zhentil Keep(arrest, torture). I don't care how powerful you are; a city can aim a lot of muscle and magic at one person if aroused to anger and there are a myriad of other risks.
There should be some care taken with killing minions of other PCs but, at the same time, a little common sense has to balance the willing suspension of disbelief involved in a fantasy game in order to really remain in character.

[Selveem]

If I remember correctly, the overlying rule was courtesy prevails in such instances.

Having killed an undead (with no consequences to the owner), upon reflection, I don't feel I should have done it even though it was a mundane mob.

How fair was that to the owner? Was there any roleplay with a PC before killing the PC's mob? The mob, in essence belongs to the PC. If I'm not mistaken, it's also tied to their PFile? So if that were the case, in essence, it _is_ the character. To bolster this arguement:

Before typing MURDER, all characters are expected to engage in some sort of role play with their target, even if this only includes a taunt or threat. This gives a target the chance to avoid engaging in pkill if they so desire and if it is within their characters persona to do so.

*Note: This help file says before typing "Murder;" not before murdering a PC specifically.

As the second portion is not valid because the NPC _can't_ respond to taunts, threats, or avoid PK in any way, I would consider this to fall under the same sportsmanship as killing someone while they're link dead or flagged AFK.

[Gwain]

Under no circumstances should you kill any pet that is still possessed by an owner under any condition without the owner present to rp with you. This goes for undead as well. The only time it is permissible to kill an unattended undead minion is when it has been abandoned. This is fine because oocly you are not allowed to kill unattended pets that are still owned by a player character unless they are there to rp with you. So you should not get into ic trouble because of the ooc rule if you choose to ignore the pet because when you type kill, you see the line asking you to type murder.

The only times this can be waived would be by the direction of an imm through an incredibly unlikely and rare rp or by mistaken death such as an aoe spell (accidents happen). All events of murder and attempted murder are logged ingame.

These are the rules I understand to be standard, that I myself follow.

Theft from pets is of course different. You are free to steal at least one thing from an improperly stored pet (Outside of stables, not in a city stable in a city with no coded stable) As long as you take the time to rp with the owner giving them the chance to regain the items. A bit of track but good to mention in retrospect to the above.

[Mouat]

Hmmmm, I see killing an undead compared to killing a pet very different than killing things like griffons and eagles...

Some pets are unique and you can never obtain another one. As far as a I know griffons and eagles are like that. Evils get griffons and so do goodies and my understanding is you can only ever get one, if that eagle/griffon dies, you cannot purchase another or quest for another.

I would never knowingly kill a pet, but something undead? I realize some undead creatures are much more difficult to get than others, but can't they be obtained again and again?

I know I once saw a HUGE spider in UM and some of the people with me wanted to kill it, but I could tell it had some items on it and so I did a who and noticed a certain PC on and asked them OOCly if it was theirs or if they know anything about it. It turned out it was their pet/mount so, I convinced the group to keep going and leave the spider alone.

Hmmm, I guess what I am trying to get at is, how do you know if something is a pet or not?

As far as my own pets go, I always try to leave them outside of an area, resting or sleeping and hope that players are respectful of not killing it. I am not sure what else to do with a pet when you are way off in the middle of nowhere? And the pets I have on my ranger are both unique, if they die, they cannot be bought again or quested for again.

Anyway, just my two cents. I really appreciate the dialogue going on here with regards to this topic, because I always felt, that undead should be creamed like corn then buried.

[Gwain]

Hmmm, I guess what I am trying to get at is, how do you know if something is a pet or not?

As I said you will know when you type kill 'target' and you see a message that says You have to murder 'target' that is how you know it is a pet.