[Brainstorm] Orc roleplay

[Lerytha]

Oh, and then the drow could actually affect things on the surface. Imagine them bribing the orcs with "shinies" to kidnap a certain foe and bring them down to Skullport through the orcish entrance... or bribing orcs to spread chaos, etc, the possibilities are endless and it can link drow to orc to surface RP.

[Lathander]

Without giving too much away...there is already a way for orcs to get from the orc camp to UM. I think they need to find their own way from UM down to Skullport. An orc expedition in UM to reach Skullport?

[Solaghar]

Going through all the quests to reach Skullport takes RL many hours, more like days, and is restricted to players who can survive the dangerous nature of the journey. That just makes an Orc have little to do but grind until they can survive the trip. Skullport has areas which are good for players from level 15 up, and the Underdark wilderness outside of Menzo is good for about the same levels. Letting Orcs travel freely to these areas through underground tunnels or caravans through the Underdark would be a better solution for introducing some variety to both Drow and Orcish life, opening up more quests for them in the lower levels (when the things they will get might be useful, as opposed to higher levels when a +1 sword or whatever isn't a big deal). I also really like the idea that you could drag a surfacer to the Underdark, getting to Skullport is no great feat, honestly there is no big reward for being there, no great equipment to buy or amazing quests to do, the fun of Undermountain is doing the quests inside of Undermountain itself. Skullport is just a bonus to being there, and the fact that we let people start out there as a hometown should show there's no real benefit to being in the city. So allowing surfacers to be dragged down and handed off to the Drow would be pretty interesting and would give a big benefit to the Drow, who absolutely would pay fortunes to get their hands on a few Elves or the like.

I also like the idea of giving Orcs (and Drow) access to some component they can trade with others, I don't necessarily like the idea of sole access to some component, but much simpler access. Some cave where it's simple to mine out gems, a sulphuric pool where one can get large amounts of sulphur simply or some area where one can easily collect adder stomachs or some other rare components much in demand. This is something I've mentioned numerous times and I still think it's a good idea. I'd just as strongly support something like this for Elves, Halflings, Gnomes, any race, to give them an incentive to trade with or seek out those they wouldn't normally meet with. It would also help a lot in terms of the occasional scarcity of components.

[Dalvyn]

Re: components

Actually, that's what I tried to do with black crystals. Currently, the drow have a rather easy access to it (if I remember well), while it's quite rare on the surface. Hopefully, the whole roleplay can resume, the skills can be spread/taught, and there can be some sort of trade going on between the drow and the surface (via the orcs or not).

Re : buffer/meeting area between orcs and drow

I'm not in favour of allowing the orcs to go down into the drow areas, because this can lead to very unIC things: the areas down there and the programs have been made with only drow in mind. They are old areas and, back then, we used to assume too much; for example, we used to assume that only drow would come there and meet the mobs. Bringing orcs (or anybody else) down there could lead to unIC reactions from the mobs, and I would rather avoid that. (I could postpone opening the areas till after they have been revised, but then this could take a lot of time).

I would be fine with adding one or several "buffer areas" between the orc camp and the drow areas. Or between another orc-based area and the drow areas. These "buffer areas" would need to be restricted to orcs. No "Ah yes, I'm taking my OOC friend down there, but it's all IC, because he's evil and he's said "thank you" to my orc, so now my orc thinks he's a good friend and he's ready to do anything for him" bullshit [woot! I'm talking American English!]. I would also be fine with adding specific components/restricted resources in those areas (move nearly all earth crystals down there for example; add some sort of components for another "trade"; ...) to create opportunities for orcs to interact with others in other ways than just killing. Ah, and, naturally, these buffers areas would also allow drow and orcs to interact.

BUT I seem to remember something that Gruumsh's player once said about orc/drow interaction. What I remember about it (I might misremember) is that orcs are afraid of drow (not that they would really show it, but deep down, they are really scared of them). Would they interact then? I'd like some cannon answer on this point (this doesn't mean that we can't move away from cannon, but I'd like to know what's the "official" stance on it).

Re: shaman herbalism

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I like that it gives "something more" to do. I'm deeply convinced that all those small "somethings to do on the side" really make the mud richer. And I would also like to develop herbalism. That being said, I'm not too keen on giving yet another way to avoid having to group up. If a concoction can increase your strength efficiently, why bother taking a wizard or a priest with you? And if the orc shamans can cast "bull strength", why bother making concoctions to do the same thing? It would be good to find something that would incite people to use BOTH, but I'm not sure what exactly.

Re: in general

Interesting ideas. Thank you all, and keep them coming!

[Selveem]

Re: shaman herbalism
If a concoction can increase your strength efficiently, why bother taking a wizard or a priest with you? And if the orc shamans can cast "bull strength", why bother making concoctions to do the same thing?

Easy answer. But first, I would like to point out that Orc, like Dwarves, are not too fond of Wizards.

The answer to this question is the same reason why Selveem or any other fighter 'bothers taking a wizard or priest with' him: Bulls strength, trollish vigor, and pretty much all the rest of the buff spells don't last very long. To rely solely on potions, not only would it be impossibly expensive, but also would require a good (very high) number of them.

[Lathander]

Going through all the quests to reach Skullport takes RL many hours, more like days, and is restricted to players who can survive the dangerous nature of the journey. That just makes an Orc have little to do but grind until they can survive the trip.

Isn't this true of all PCs? Orc and non-orc alike? If I'm misunderstanding your point, please clarify.

...getting to Skullport is no great feat, honestly there is no big reward for being there, no great equipment to buy or amazing quests to do, the fun of Undermountain is doing the quests inside of Undermountain itself. Skullport is just a bonus to being there, and the fact that we let people start out there as a hometown should show there's no real benefit to being in the city.

Two points here. First, and again I might be misunderstanding, I don't see how the first line of the quote above reconciles with the initial statement quoted in my post. Second, rather than claim (even if correct) that Skullport hold no special interests, why not recruit some interested builder to create those special interests?

[Duranamir]

BUT I seem to remember something that Gruumsh's player once said about orc/drow interaction. What I remember about it (I might misremember) is that orcs are afraid of drow (not that they would really show it, but deep down, they are really scared of them). Would they interact then? I'd like some cannon answer on this point (this doesn't mean that we can't move away from cannon, but I'd like to know what's the "official" stance on it).

Off the top of my head from work, so any corrections or additions appreciated...

Canon references to Drow Orc interaction

In the Hunters blade Trilogy where a group of 4 Drow including at least one priestess of Lloth work with Obould many arrow's and even act as go betweens to the giants on his behalf. Neither side trusts the other but there common goals of causing devastation and chaos on the surface allow them to work together. The Drow in this case work from the shadows providing advice and intelligence which Obould at leasts listens to though he does not always follow it, he tends to listen to his tribal shamans which creates an interesting conflict in the story with the Drow wanting to get rid off or discredit the shamans without the blame falling on them. Both sides are looking for there own advantage in the relationship and the Drow do in the end betray Obould at a critical point. But this is well into book 3, so a fair degree of RP has occcured in our terms.

Drow and Orogs

From the underdark sourcebook, the Drow respect the Orogs, and the Orogs respect the Drow as each is a race powerful enough to maintain cities in the underdark. Does not stop them fighting, but they do trade as they do with the Duregar. Drow and orcs may may hate just about everyone but to survive they both have to trade and deal with other races.

Opinion stuff

In my opinion the Drows attitude is that of a bully, they will oppress those weaker than themselves but when someone can stand up to them they will grudgeingly deal with them though always looking to get one up or some advantage. So a strong Orc tribe would be dealt with on that basis, grudgeingly and with an eye to the Drows advantage but not immediaelty as enemies, more as an oppurtunity to be manipulated to there own ends.

For the Orcs the Drow are something to fear as they do enslave Orcs in great numbers, but when a tribe is strong then they can deal with the Drow from that position of strength to get what they want, money, weapons, information and magical aid against there enemies for example. And if the Drow want to kill elves why not help them, it is fun as long as you watch your back. Orcs are not a race that cares much for other creatures so for example selling orcs or goblins from another tribe to the Drow is not an un Orcy thing to do.

All these idea work on an individual level as well, so a strong Orc might well be helped by a Drow to rise within his tribe, given gifts and aid on the understanding that he will do something for the Drow later. Neither side are going to trust each other over much, but the possible immediate gains are too much for either side to ignore. Both Orcs and Drow are greedy races and want power within there own society the other race can help with that without being as much as a threat as one of your own race.

Duranamir

[Selveem]

Wow, Dura.

Learned a lot from that, actually. Thank you!

I know Orogs are a very powerful race, but I didn't know the Drow would begrudgingly (or otherwise, for that matter) treat anyone as an equal.

[Liandria]

On the point of Orcs not liking Magic:

Gray Orc: (page 66 of Races of Faerun)
"Arcane spellcasters while not unknown among gray orcs, are quite rare. In a society dominated by brutality and strength, there isn't much room for more academic study. Those orcs who do become arcane spellcasters are invariably loners or outcasts."

Mountain orcs: (page 70 Races of Faerun)
"The mountain orcs are more interested in physical combat than magic. Nonetheless, they understand and appreciate the tactical value of having magical support in a war. Their spellcasters focus on magic that can be directly applied to combats, especially spells like haste, keen edge, bless, prayer, and others that support the fighting troops. Despite this, many tribes of orcs think of magic as the coward's route, something used by their hated enemy (especially the elves). To embrace the use of magic is to concede that one's enemies are to be respected - a concept that doesn't sit well with many orcs."


Seems to me orcs will tolerate working with anyone/anything that will aid them in their current battle, even hated foes if it brings down another hated foe. I've not been in the orc "Kamp" though, so perhaps the orc tribe in game is one that dislikes magic.

[Nysan]

Quick insert: For whatever ideas are moved forward, please keep in mind similar races as well. Goblins for example, start out in the Orc Camp and are tied to alot of the orc content already. I don't see any reason to exlude them any of the ideas mentioned here so far. *shrug*

[Julthain]

If this is about developing Skullport then the easiest way I see to do it would be for more people to create characters with hometowns set in Skullport. Said (non-drow) characters could then easily travel to the surface via the ship (I think it costs only 5 platinum for Skullport residents) then to get back you could either buy a scroll of recall, get a wizard friend of yours to scribe you some, or if you are a priest or wizard you can cast it yourself. I've heard that teleportation doesn't work in the UD, but recall most likely would (not entirely sure). More people playing in Skullport would lead to more interaction. All in all, if this would work, then it would cost you around 30 platinum for a trip to the surface and back. I'm sure a mere 30pc would be a lot more preferable than running through UM and hoping you don't die.

Non-drow in SP that can access the surface could then trade with the Drow for items that are hard to come by in the Underdark and the Drow could trade items from places only they have access to, like Ched Nasad and Menzoberranzan. Plus, if you do something shady on the surface, you can always flee back to SP and force the ones after you to have to go through undermountain to get you.

It possibly would also lead to a better chance of any revisions being made to SP. From what I gather there are a lot of other projects going on, and the builders don't really have much spare time to go and revamp an area that would only benefit the 2-3 PC's actually using it.

[Lathander]

I'm not deleting the post, but please refrain from revealing too much IC info in the forums. Some players actually enjoy finding out how much things cost and discovering the obstacles to particular adventures during the course of their in-game play.

[Ooma]

BUT I seem to remember something that Gruumsh's player once said about orc/drow interaction. What I remember about it (I might misremember) is that orcs are afraid of drow (not that they would really show it, but deep down, they are really scared of them). Would they interact then? I'd like some cannon answer on this point (this doesn't mean that we can't move away from cannon, but I'd like to know what's the "official" stance on it).

There is something Canon.... LLoth and Gruumsh are FAITH ENEMIES... ( which I have noted ICLY.. that many orcs do not seem to understand...But usually get... by the time they are faithed

Here is some quoted stuff... in case you dont believe me

"Gruumsh once had an alliance with the conniving drow goddess Araushnee to bring down the gods of the elves once and for all. His plan failed, despite a divine force brought against the elven gods consisting of the Seldarine's enemies in all the goblinoid and elf-hating pantheons and Araushnee was transformed into Lolth. The two deities have been great foes ever since, though Gruumsh's alliance with another assisting deity, Malar, has not been so badly corrupted."


Thank you wiki... I could not have said it bettah myself!!!

Sorry for the very slow response on this.

Ooma

[Hrosskell]

This post intrigues me. From someone who has played an orc and bantered around with orcs IC, I would hate to see them leave this game. They have an interesting culture that has been worked on (most often as side projects for both the builders and players), and to just scrap that would be a disservice to the hours put in by these people. Also, another issue I'd like to get out of the way is orcish "aggression". I think PvP RP is an entire issue that should be discussed seperately, including orcs as possible motivators, but I do not think it should be addressed as orc specific. Now, for suggestions.

More area support would be the first issue. Orcs, as a race, have the least area support, second maybe only to halflings. Elves have massive temples, cities, camps. Dwarves have the sweetest city ever, complete with awesome armor, trades, and entertaining inns (god I love dwarf-land). While gnomes and halflings also have little resource to them, they are generally accepted in human culture, where-as orcs are not. I think that any manner of side areas would help the orcs--be it new temples, new raiding grounds, or quest areas. My initial idea (and I'm not a builder, so I know that I'm doing little to help right now) was to design medium-to-large sized area that had a check for a full-orc group (don't know the code stipulations on this) that served as both a raiding place and perhaps played into orc religion a bit. A few orcish outposts across the Spine, a few tie-ins in neutral quest areas, and this large area could make something interesting and challenging for orcs as a group and whole.

Second, is imm support. If there was any way to organize RPs with imm support, it would certainly help out the race as a whole. The increase and revival of drow RP was astounding when the imms decided to devote time to it, and I think the same scene can appear with orcs. I know that builders and imms are stretched thin, and currently devoted to projects seen as "more worthy", but I think the only thing holding the orcs back is lack of devotion.

It'll take time. It'll take work. But I definitely think that the thought of losing this race is enough motivation to do something about it. And I know we can't judge an entire situation off of brief periods, but there is often a resurgence of orcs from time to time. Coming with it is usually an array of complaints, PK issues, and whatnot, but I think that can all be effectively remedied with stronger enforcement and enlightenment of the rules. But again, an entirely different discussion lies in PvP/PK.

[Vibius]

While pure orc RP (orc roleplays with another orc) can be an enjoyable experience, limiting to themselves could get quite boring (although of late I manage to see two-three orcs in the who list most of time)

I think that something very interesting would inputing reasons why members of other races would seek interaction with orcs that wouldn't have directly attacking them or violence as an objective.

I give here a few:

-Trade (lorewise evil organizations such as the Zhentarim as been known to not be shy in selling them weapons/armor in exchange for slaves/gold)

-Slaving (Yes, some evil organizations have been known for slaving orcs and using them as minions, although I'm not sure if an orc would like to roleplay such)

But I'm sure that we can get any others interesting realistic reasons on how orcs could interact with other races.