What do you feel FK is missing?

[Selveem]

This is a dialogue between myself and one of the older players who has since left Forgotten Kingdoms:

Me: What is it that FK lacks?
Me: Even if it's a radical suggestion or completely only self-benefitting.
Ex-Player: Heart

It's a simple, honest answer. I should also mention that the ex-player did NOT mean it in a bad way, but as constructive critique. The more I think about it, the more I feel the player hit the nail on the head as to what I feel FK is lacking. This is not to say that there aren't people putting their blood, sweat, and tears into FK. We have a very dedicated staff of players and administrators who go out of their way to ensure new content and other additions to the game, but I do agree that some of the heart is no longer there.

I don't have the answer for this one, but I do want to know what everyone else feels FK needs. Please don't feel that, just because something is self-benefiting, it is not a worthy answer. Remember, we're all in it for something.

[Aldren]

Define heart.

If by "heart" you mean a living, breathing game where the world changes based on PC events, we've got it.

Of all the MUDs out there that I've experienced, FKMud is the only one that's kept my attention for more than a week or two, based almost entirely upon the fact that every player has a story, every IMM has a story, the world has a story, and the game itself has a story. Personally, I don't see FK as missing "heart", but maybe my definition is different than your's.

Cheers

[Harroghty]

Like anything, what you get out of the Forgotten Kingdoms game is largely moderated by what you put into it. I've come and gone from this game in the past. (When I found out about the game in the first place, I played for about two days straight and was summarily instructed by my lady friend to stop playing.) I quit once because I wasn't happy with all that was going on, but the truth is that if you aren't happy with what is going on then you are completely free to put forth an effort to improve what you feel is lagging or lacking.

I do not say any of this to discourage the discussion; I believe it worthwhile and important to discuss short-comings so that they can be corrected. I just want to remind everyone of the wonderful possibilities for improvement that this game has. I was on staff for a game you all have probably heard of before. It was a popular, text-based MUD and it was free with early AOL (2.0 was the last time it was free, I think). When a few of us had some critiques we were told (very politely) where we could shove them. This game, in contrast, has a very open forum, an applications process, and a very accessible builder's program.

So, in short, critique away, but please consider your critique and what you could do to help that issue.

(And Aldren posted while I was writing. I tend to agree, but I don't want to debate points. I went back and put some statements from my original message in bold to clarify my intent.)

[Selveem]

Again, the person meant it as honest critique and not as a slight. If it's going to be looked upon that way and responded to in that manner, I will remove it.

I asked responses to define what they felt was missing, not to criticize another person's answer.

[Elerian]

What I find missing is History. Not the lore or the setting stuff which there is plenty of and its good but the actually history of the playerbase. Its funny cause I think back to old roleplays, events, and world shaking moments, and I am saddend to know all of those good moments gone except for the memories of a few who still remain. On my main character that I started back in late 2001 (before the great mud crash of '02 that wiped the game out, cause of some damn storm in ireland, for like +3 months, who remembers that btw? ) history wasnt a problem, everyone was new, heck the mud was still pretty new, so it wasnt that big a deal. Now I talk to people and say hey remember when.... and more often than not its blank stares. I know in a ever changing game that is completely dynamic, with characters coming and going and story lines starting and ending, this is inevitable, but if I had to name one flaw that would be it. (So all you damn Ohgmites get to work and start chronicling this stuff for the next generation! )

[Lerytha]

All you damn non-Oghmytes start telling stuff, then! Seriously though, that's a really good suggestion, Elerian. I think Lerytha might suggest that to all the Oghmans, to start chronicling history. So... if you've got any snippets of history, odd stories, sad tales, that have happened over the years on this MUD, get in touch with an Oghman.

*runs to warn fellow Oghmans about the deluge of paperwork*

Also though, remember other people can help! Its not just Oghmans who like history! *sniffs*

[Gwain]

I'd have to agree with Lerytha and Elerian about the potential in documenting historic events of the mud, it sounds like it could a nice addition to the Museum of Knowledge in the game, which could always beneifit with more player documented historic events and exhibitions.

As for the comment about the game lacking heart from 'an ex player' I tend to dismiss things like that because they lack clear examples and reasonings. Especially when we have a very dedicated staff of players and administrators who go out of their way to ensure new content and other additions to the game. That sounds like heart to me. I would love to know specifically where exactly the current heart is lacking from the outset, otherwise it can be dismissed as a sensationalist Point-of-View critique from a semi-active participant in the mud.

Edit: Found a heart. Or at least a plastic one.

[Selveem]

As for the comment about the game lacking heart from 'an ex player' I tend to dismiss things like that because they lack clear examples and reasonings.

I appreciate the response, Gwain, but again I ask once more you not critique what the original person told me. Ultimately, that was their thoughts on the matter and your opinions don't change it. If, however, you have something that you'd like to contribute that the game is missing, I urge you to bring it here.

Thanks.

[Aldren]

Could you please expand on what you mean by "FK is missing heart"? I still don't understand what you're getting at.

[Selveem]

Edited out my own response. I already stated this thread is not for dissecting other's ideas.

[Aldren]

Sorry if this appears blunt, but I think it's the only way I can get it across properly.
What exactly is the point of this thread? If it's to suggest things that can change, we already have a game suggestions forum, and individual topics are quite frequently posted there so they can be expanded on/introduced to the game. This thread just seems redundant to me.

[Belose]

It seems to me, Selveem, that every once in a while you DO miss the point. Aldren, for instance, in asking you to define heart, meant probably as in how your friend meant heart. Aldren gave a very good response to it. I myself was wondering how to interpret heart, too. I like the living, breathing game he mentioned. I think myself your friend meant the passion the players put INTO their roleplaying in making characters come alive!!! Thing is, whatever interpretation given, I DO think this game has HEART! Lots of it.. and that is why so many people get addicted to playing it. For hours at a time. That irritates significant others... <wishes for an innocent looking smiley to insert here that whistles>

[Horace]

I'd say a team atmosphere. And mind you this is a very minor critique, but the one that bothers me the most.

Whether it's players or immortals it seems like people walk on eggshells to not remove a person's responsibilities - and to be fair, this is just a product of the courtesy of the men and women behind the screens and less of the desire to grasp a hold of power...which is why I don't thump it often in public, because of that realization.

But whether it's FM's absent from play for something as petty as not liking their hopefuls, or for something as meaningful and heart wrenching as their child being kidnapped (knock on wood) - at some point the realization of this community being a team needs to come through for the game. It's a simple matter to delegate that position, and when it does get done at all, we often wait far too long for it to happen.

We have a dedicated player and staff base who can pick up slack instantly. But we get wind up playing catch up because of the enormous length of time that is allowed to pass before we treat the infection.

Again, the only thing that really bothers me. It should be less about worrying about stepping on other people's toes, and more about doing what is best for the game community...I promise the person behind the screen who gets the position delegated a way for a bit, won't mind.

And if they do mind, they're not a team player - and not the person with the appropriate emotional character to be in a position like that. Less feelings, more results. No hard feelings, no judgment passed - you're not here to do it, someone else will. And if you come back you can still have a large part in the process of whatever it is...if you don't come back, the game doesn't skip a beat. Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. We're horrible at adapting to a change in player or imm activity, and it shows immensely. I know for a fact we can minimize that damage - but ego's need to be checked at the door so others aren't hesitant to act.

But I'm an industrious little monster who can separate that kind of stuff and believes everyone else should be able to as well. That won't ever change.

Love & Respect
Tyson

[Aldren]

I wholeheartedly agree with Horace. It seems like folks tend to skirt the issues while trying to preserve the feelings and opinions of others, when all I think we should worry about is ourselves. In the end, this will bring more fruit as a whole for the team. If everyone gets comfortable RPing their style, without making attempts to step on eggshells, we'll all gain a bit more respect for one another, and expand the way we see playing as a team here on FK.

[Skye]

I'd say a team feeling. And mind you this is a very minor critique, but the one that bothers me the most.

...

We have a dedicated player and staff base who can pick up slack very quickly. I think we let that slack run far too long before we start picking it up.

Again, the only thing that really bothers me. It should be less about worrying about stepping on other people's toes, and more about doing what is best for the game community...I promise the person behind the screen who gets the position delegated a way for a bit, won't mind.

This is a really excellent point--I know Ty's hit on something here that's troubled me for a long time. Why aren't FM responsibilities delegated more often? It seems like a far better thing to let someone else high-up in the faith step in and assist than to let the faith grow stagnant and the faithful, frustrated.

I've seen a couple of different faiths (Tymora and Ilmater, specifically) do this recently, and I think it's been great. Certainly no one seems to have suffered as a result, and the playerbase has benefited. Seems like an all-around win.

Does anyone have any further insights on this one? Thanks!

Love,

Skye

[Lerytha]

To be honest, the FM discussion has been done to death. However, since it is something people feel is missing, I'd like to add my thoughts.

All FMs have real-life issues. There has to be some balance between Horace's idea that we should delegate if anyone is inactive, and the case sometimes that an inactive FM remains in their position for ages.

I will speak on a personal level here, as the player of Lerytha. When she was originally raised as joint FM with Mirabai, I personally worked hard with Mira to re-awaken the players and encourage new faithful. When Mira decided to withdraw, I did that alone for a short while. Alas, then real life hit in a big way, with constant infections in my leg, a serious hospitalisation, as well as struggling through a job to save some money for university. Whenever I could log on, I admit I focused on another character. To the detriment (I freely admit) of Oghma's faith. During this time, I think I approached Oghma three times to offer to resign, but he offered me nothing but support during my difficulties.

So Ynaura then (or actually, a little before, because she was so damn good ) was raised as joint FM. And I must admit, has shouldered most of the responsibility of the faithing process, owing to my constant RL issues.

Why do I say all that, in such a frank way? Because sometimes actually, it is vital that we take into account the feelings of the players behind the screen. I know I worked extremely hard to try to wake Oghma's faith up. There were many new players raised quickly (but with well-thought out and individualised quests, to make them feel really engaged - a process I am glad Ynaura and I continue to this day), and I felt a real buzz working.

Now, obviously when "the problems" hit, I approached Oghma, which makes my case slightly different from those who might not approach with an offer of resignation. However, had I not, and I logged on one day to find myself demoted, after having struggled through an extremely hard patch of my life, I would not feel particularly supported, helped or even, frankly, cared about.

Where do we draw the line? <- that is my first question. At what stage does it become reasonable for "staff" to decide that FM hasn't contributed recently, lets raise someone else?

Onto a second point.

Sometimes, FMs are not demoted and another FM raised, because either a) there are not the players in the faith or even b) the players that are there, do not completely espouse the views of those gods.

It is very easy sometimes, to see an active character in a faith, and an inactive FM, and decide, "That player should be FM." Alas again, it isn't that easy. I almost all ways, an FM rarely has too much individuality. They take their own player spin on a god, true. But these are players who interpret the dogma of their god. Other players and characters can decide, "Ah, my character's RP says different, I'm sure my FM will understand." A FM cannot. A FM has to be a character who has consistently roleplayed an unshakeable loyalty to their chosen god.

Sometimes, the people we think should be promoted, are not actually ICly the right sort of character. That is not making any OOC judgements there, that is just saying that some characters actually do not follow the dogma strictly. That is not the sort of FM any faith needs or should want. When I see a FM in-game, I WANT to know they KNOW and UNDERSTAND their faith. They should be people (with or without coded abilities to enforce it), who are closer to their god than any other player. They should be people who can say, (in my and Ynaura's example) "Oghma believes this".

The point to this second part of my response. Sometimes FMs are not automatically demoted because there are not always candidates below them to make that demotion worthwhile.

The issue of FMs is a very delicate one. I do not actually feel removing more inactive FMs will help much. Unless they NEVER log, and haven't logged in a year, I see no reason to remove them. Everyone has problems. Everyone has issues they really, absolutely, positively cannot change. Ever. Period. Full-stop. Although it is "only a game", one real contribution to a great stress during my multiple operations a year and a bit ago, was that I couldn't continue contributing to a MUD I love - or rather, a COMMUNITY that I love. To have the support of the imm I have worked closely with in the faith, during that time, was an immense help.

I know Selveem does not want the "heart" comment analysed. But I honestly feel, if we ever went the way where you HAVE to log a certain amount OR GET DEMOTED, there would be less heart, and more cold-blooded office-work. And that is not why any of us are playing on this MUD.

I'm sorry I posted so much about this. It may have seemed very self-focused, in which case I'm sorry. But I know that if I have had issues, other people have. And its partly also for their enjoyment and support I post this in such detail.

All the same, you do raise a valuable point, Horace, and it is a question that should be addressed. So long as we all bear in mind the complexities of life that actually surround every player's circumstances.

Lots of love, over and out.
~Ol

[Horace]

It's a position that isn't for the player to enjoy. It's a position to serve other players, and a responsibility that is passed on from imm/admins to non imm players.

I'm sorry for any hurt feelings, but it's not about that. It's about what is best for the game, and if you can't do it - delegate someone else. It's just a maturity thing. You don't have to be entirely out of the picture, that'd be crazy. But delegation of power is the ultimate sign of trust and respect, and if you respect someone to make sound decisions in your leave - it should be done. Without guilt trips on why you can't do whatever it is you agreed to do.

No hard feelings, I'd never hold it against anyone for not playing for any reason. It's a game. And as that someone needs to take over when positions aren't filled. It's not a career position where you make your livelihood on it in real life. It's entirely for the service of the game.

And when the said player comes back, they can resume the role. No harm no foul.

[Lerytha]

You don't just "resume the role", Horace.

Faiths change, organically, with different FMs. What one FM might "interpret" as dogma, another FM will dismiss as heresy. I don't quite support the full "If you're not logging, you're gone" approach. I understand fully where you're coming from, I just think there has to be a balance between the two points.

As to my other point, though. In many faiths, there just aren't the characters that could realistically take over. I don't want just any old character taking over a faith. I want characters that have proved their worth to their faith, and actually understand what the faith is about.

[Horace]

The only reason you can't resume the role is because people take it as a power position instead of a service position. In game there are tons of fm's who are NPC's with the rank of a faith manager. The precedent is there. They aren't popes, they're religious leaders. And a religious schism is just as interesting in character as a faith in perfect harmony.

As to my other point, though. In many faiths, there just aren't the characters that could realistically take over. I don't want just any old character taking over a faith. I want characters that have proved their worth to their faith, and actually understand what the faith is about.

Agreed. But this exists because players stop trying to join a faith when it's dead or dying. It doesn't have to be permanent, it can be a steward. A solution now that isn't ideal is better than a perfect solution down the road. Sick is better than dead, etc etc etc.

[Harroghty]

I like Tyson's point in the general sense about a team, results-focused mentality.

Specific to the discussion of a role (any role): almost every effective, real world organization has a number one and a number two. President and Vice President, Manager and Assistant Manager, Commander and Executive Officer, Pastor and Assistant Pastor, Head Coach and Assistant Coach, etc...

If the goal is to support the success and happiness of players and the success of the game, then anyone in a position of authority (and responsibility) should have a number two to ensure that someone can help other players out if the designated person is unable to complete their responsibilities.

No one needs to lose something in this scenario. A second person allows for some redundancy, not replacement. Ultimately though, while everyone's feelings should be considered, the goal should be to support the fun of the general player base. No one is forced into responsibility in this game. They accept it or volunteer for it.

So, to summarize and clarify: I like Ty's point, but I will expand or maybe rephrase and say that I would love to see people focus more on the responsibility of their roles. The responsibility to help others have fun. That sounds arrogant, but I don't do this all the time either. This isn't a finger-pointing or an indictment of anyone. If the shoe fits, wear it. I ask myself this a lot and sometimes the shoes fits me too.