PC feat/stat reset

[Horace]

It seems to me this has been either been put on inevitable hold or the decision to go through with it was reconsidered. I understand, things happen that can't be accounted for during the planning stages. But I find it important to recognize such issues and deal with them as quickly and ably as possible to minimize any unintended changes that negatively affect PC's.

The problem, and my proposal.

Problem: New feats being added into the game that are effective level adjusters - things that affect hit bonus/damage/AC core mechanics of combat. This is not the problem, this is good and a step forward in the game to make melee PC's more appropriately represent DnD. The problem is that these advantages are being put in without PC's, who previously matured, being able to learn them. Feats that would have been staple feats for any warrior class, now only being learned by new characters. This problem is accentuated by the aspect that we are no longer allowed to spend glory to learn feats (which I assume was part of the allure of allowing glory exchanges in the first place).

Proposals, prioritized by my personal desired change:
1) Follow through with initial proposal, and continue with a full PC reset of stats/feats. If necessary, on a volunteer basis.

2) Kismet cost for feat expenditure reset - if this is relatively easy to accomplish, I feel this is the best option that is a compromise. It fulfills the nature of the initial reset, where a person's glory purchased feats would be lost in the wipe...but it would be done so at the player's behest, instead of forced on them.

3) Remove the convert glory lock - if the new system is stalled or no longer proceeding as planned, there is no reason for the lock anymore...which would also remove the strain on older pc's to at least be able to "buy" some feats to make up for the discrepancy and on the flip side allow new PC's to buy their stats/feats up just like older PC's were allowed to. This option does nothing but stop the bleeding of the problem, but that's better than nothing.

This is what I propose for the problem. All three I see as reasonably halting the issue, to varying degrees, and well within our ability as a player base for expectations. I welcome all discussion on the topic, as long as the tone is focused on solving an issue.

[Jaenoic]

Just throwing in my support here. Especially on the point of the glory conversion freeze. If we're going through with the reset, great, let's do it. If not, why have we frozen the glory conversion? I understand that things get hung up, put on hold, etc. but a problem arises when temporary hold-overs used become permanent(like the glory convert freeze, or a while back when track was removed from thieves because the new scout class was coming in - but never did).

[Caelnai]

The problem is that these advantages are being put in without PC's, who previously matured, being able to learn them.

Glory conversions to feat and stat points is one of the most brilliant ideas I've ever heard of to help and reward players who boost the RP environment of the game by committing to playing a PC long-term. It helped equalize older players to new changes (as Horace refers to) which is always a tricky problem on any mud. And there was a built-in check because it isn't that easy to get glory, and the conversion cost could always be dialed up. (Show me the drow who has 20 glory points.)

I liked the idea so much I implemented something similar on a mud I co-own, and I'm helping a friend add it to his mud. Sorry if this pushes a bit off the topic, but I can't resist an opportunity to say how completely floored I am that it was removed.

[Lathander]

The reset is still being considered.

[Horace]

Considered? Last I heard it was going through January 1st. Seems like a pretty serious stall for the first time any of us hearing about it.

[Gwain]

Just because you don't hear anything, it does not mean that nothing is being worked on, being tested, being rationalized etc, etc.

The game is run by volunteer staff and runs on a volunteer time frame, So some things take longer than others. Patience is key and if and when the changes are ready I am sure we will be informed. Until then there is nothing wrong with the game, I'd recommend just playing and enjoying it.

[Horace]

I understand that, and understand delays. But 4 months without a single post seems excessive. Why not unlock the glory conversion til something is actually in motion then?

Surely that's a very simple compromise that takes nearly no time to perform.

[Elenthis]

I think what Horace is trying to get to (correct me if I'm wrong) is this:

We are aware the imm-staff is entirely volunteers. No one intends for any part of this thread to seem pressing or impatient. All that's being asked for is two things (that I see)

1. Removing parts of the game without having a replacement ready is difficult to cope with without warning.

2. If things are being "discussed", which I'm willing to bet more than 90% of the player base is willing to accept, just keep us informed. ex. "Hey, we're tearing out the glory-stat system because even if we dont go on with the reset, we dont feel it is a positive part of the reward system. We're still discussing the reset, and we'll keep you posted"

I hope that helps

[Horace]

I do intend to sound pressing.

We wait for 4 months without hearing anything at all for a single post. And the response is "patience is a virtue". We waited four months. An entire season has passed by. I don't think the problem on this particular instance is the patience of the playerbase. Let's not take criticism so personal and just solve the problem with the obvious quick fix, for the betterment of the game.

Remove the glory conversion lock until there is a replacement that is viable.

[Lerytha]

Just to offer an alternative view here, Horace...

If the system is going to be changed, why would we not lock the system that might be removed?

It will make more work in the long run, and concern more players in the long run, if we go on using glory conversion. Even if it takes a whole year, until whatever changes are made, are made... well, then you've got a whole year of glory conversion that someone in the staff has to manually fix and change, to fit in with the newer system.

By freezing it, that kind of work is stopped. That's my view anyway, and is probably not the view of the staff! But it seems sensible and logical not to let people deceive themselves into using a flawed system that will just disadvantage them in the long term.

I'd rather they didn't unlock the glory conversion, to be honest. It will stop newer players from basing their characters on that, only to have everything changed on them in a few months.

Also, as much as your suggestions are suggestions, they do come across as if they're orders, sometimes! I doubt that's what you intended. but a few times in this thread you've come across quite curt. No offence meant by that, just a friendly comment about the tone at the end of your last post in particular.

Unless its just me being hypersensitive today, in which case, feel free to ignore me! (About the warning at least, not the main argument of the thread which has some merit, hypersensitivity or not)

Interesting top, though.

[Horace]

Fair enough.

I hate hearing "patience is a virtue" and "volunteer timeframe", when there is no communication. And if it really was a volunteer situation, like a soup kitchen, anyone could walk in and do it. Fact of the matter is it's a position taken to serve the game and playerbase, I often feel that focus is lost sometimes because of hurt feelings - or a feeling of animosity for this reason or that.

I'm not criticizing anyone. We can fix it right now. We can get results, while the discussions are still going on. I'm sure the glory conversion wouldn't have been locked when it was, if the timeframe for it was July 09, as opposed to January 1st 09.

Things get put in the oven, and then taken out. I understand that. But let's put it in the fridge til we're ready to cook again, yeah?

---------------

I'd rather they didn't unlock the glory conversion, to be honest. It will stop newer players from basing their characters on that, only to have everything changed on them in a few months.

How long? What is your kill frame there? You can't just say indefinitely, at what point do you flip? Obviously, mine is about 4 months. If it lasts 2 years, is that long enough? We need to set parameters to work within. It isn't good for the game as is, unless the change is imminent.

[Lathander]

I do intend to sound pressing.

You've succeeded in your intent.

We wait for 4 months without hearing anything at all for a single post. And the response is "patience is a virtue". We waited four months. An entire season has passed by. I don't think the problem on this particular instance is the patience of the playerbase. Let's not take criticism so personal and just solve the problem with the obvious quick fix, for the betterment of the game.

Imms have not claimed the "problem" to be the patience of the playerbase. We do not agree that there is a problem, let alone a cause. The criticism is taken personally because care has not been taken in the wording of the criticism. There is not an "obvious quick fix" because there is not a problem. There is the ISSUE of a reset under consideration/discussion. There is also the ISSUE of completely revamping the glory/kismet/reward system. There are also other issues that we imms are discussing, and one has moved up the chain to take precedence over the two mentioned above.

Remove the glory conversion lock until there is a replacement that is viable.

While many game improvements have been implemented based on players' suggestions, I cannot recall any that came from an individual player's demand.


Why not remove the freeze?
Let me begin by clearly stating that I am not entering into debate here - I am explaining my reasoning. There has already been much debate about whether or not the stat reset will take place, and much of that centered on the likelihood of all glory/stat increases being removed. It makes no sense to continue the glory/stat practice only to have any converted stat points wiped out. It would, however, allow PCs to benefit from the training/eq gains associated with increased stats while denying the same opportunity to future players. Using a glory/stat increase to access a quest with a stat minimum is another concern. It isn't particularly fair for today's PC to be able to do that if tomorrow's PC cannot. The perceived inequalities between the current crop of "older" and "newer" PCs already causes some conflict. There is no need to widen the gap or create yet another group to add to the mix. In addition, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, allowing any conversions will create unnecessary work later, should the reset go through.

[Jaenoic]

I think what is most frustrating to perceive is that the reset is still being considered. If it's not definite yet that the reset will go through, it doesn't seem right to freeze the glory convert now. What if the reset is decided against and we return to the way things were? Then the glory convert was frozen for a few months needlessly. I think that is a big source of the frustration here. Just a perception on my part.

[Horace]

Don't be so passive aggressive. I'm not blaming you Lathander, or any IMM/Admin who has taken time off. It's a game, you should be able to walk away, but that doesn't mean everything should stop.

There is obviously a problem with it. It creates a huge gap, on both sides. If the reset or glory conversion isn't imminent, what could possibly be the point of leaving the lock?

Leaving that lock denies new players of potentially 10 stat points that other characters have. That is effectively 20 levels of stat raises. As far as we've been told, the lock was put in because the switch was coming in January - understandable, less people to fix stat/feat wise. But if the time frame moves from 2 weeks, to undetermined moving on 4 months...clearly, priorities of the doing less feat/stat fixes need to be evaluated over the imbalances the system creates.

What is the immortal consensus on how long the discussion has to last before we just go back what was working, albeit not as good as a stat/feat reset, before?

[Caelnai]

Wow that was totally uncalled for, Horace.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very against the lock and see nothing wrong with players who have put years into a character being stronger than someone new. (Why not just put in a overall stat cap or something?) If there's a reset.....well, let's not even go there.

But you know, it's not our call to make...and what does being rude accomplish but make everyone upset and less inclined to listen to you?

[Horace]

It's only rude if you don't believe my sincerity of not putting blame on anyone. We're a team, and to move forward you have to have that mentality for the good of the team.

Right now there is a huge problem in mechanics because of this delay. How long does this delay have to last before it goes back to what it was before, or the stat/feat wipe proceeds?

It's an incredibly simple question, with a very easy out right now - if the the discussions of what would happen in Oct/Nov are not going to go through.

[Oghma]

Alright, everyone settle and relax. I'll say this: Once you have made your point there is really no need to repeat yourself unless you are answering a question. Don't spar back and forth. Nothing constructive comes of it.

[Skeas]

Just to set my opinion on the table, I don't think that halting a system in working order only to discuss another system is very effective.

In very simplified terms, it's like this;

Manager: Hey, we are going to stop making double decker hotdogs for two weeks while we think about coming out with a triple decker hotdog

Customers: Okay, you could still serve the double while you discuss it but I can live with that

4 months later:

Manager: We are still thinking about the triple decker hotdog; sorry but we still won't serve the old one.

Customers: WHY MUST WE SUFFFERRR )))))))'= *CRY FACE* QQ AMG QQ AMG QQ BRING BACK MY DELICIOUS HOTDOG

Manager: no wai. wait another year plz. we will have decision then perhaps.

Which inevitably leads to:

Customer #1: Hey sup bro
Customer #2: Not much just slitting my wrists due to lack of hotdog
Customer #1: Don't you know that Mickey McFly's sells double decker hotdogs you narb?
Customer #2: Oh eff yeah, I'm ditching out on Forgotten Dogs 4 lyyfe so I can get my dog on.


|:

okay so my opinion turned into this whole big dumb assed scene that isn't even directly relevant, but metaphorically could be wise in some far-fetch'd way.

[Lerytha]

Your example works, Skeas. Let me put it a different way, however.

You can only have ten hotdogs, of any kind.

Either you can have ten double hotdogs, or ten superduperwuper hotdogs. But when you've had the ten double hotdogs, you're stuck with them and can never sample the ten superduperwuper hotdogs, not without the manager shoving his fingers down your throat and making you throw them back up.

What does that equate to?

1. Proposal is being worked on.
2. Proposed proposal might disadvantage those who have previously used the glory conversion.
3. Glory conversion is frozen as proposal is worked on, to stop people going with a redundant feature when it will in the long run harm their character.
4. Had the imms not frozen it, and the proposal is initiated, I guarantee similar people would also be complaining, that they were not warned this feature is being removed.
5. It is not perfect. Maybe the discussions on it are delayed, I don't know. But the imms obviously tried to protect people here, not inconvenience. And on this (maybe not all things) I say give the benefit of the doubt.

[Skeas]

I'm not tryna be rude, because I'm so new that I have been largely unaffected by this whole process, but for some of the older players, the benefit of the doubt probably wore off a month or two after the release date wasn't met, or even brought up until one of the aforementioned older players had to step up himself and put it back on the table.

As for me... As long as no one tells me how much of a supremely better twink I could be, were at least one of these systems enacted, I'll be content. d: