Waterdeep

Rhelian · Post by **Rhelian** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:08 am

Kirkus wrote:
Evil is evil - lawful or chaotic doesn't make one more evil than another.
Very interesting Rhelian. So you are saying we don't need that whole lawful-neutral-chaotic part in our alignment. Because there isn't a difference between Lawful good or chaotic good characters. Good is good

I didn't say that it didn't make a difference. I said being lawful or chaotic doesnt mean that you're more or less evil than your counterpart. Law and chaos are independant factors to good or evil. A "detect evil" spell would detect if you're evil or not. Not that you're lawful or chaotic or inbetween.

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:15 am

Kirkus - I think what Rhelian was getting at is that, having a slight difference to give the indication of lawful/chaotic etc. is just giving a evil version of know alignment, and would not benifit RP. A chaotic evil is not neccessarily more or less evil than a lawful evil person is. There is no real way in the mud that we can offer a RP guideline from a spell to how "evil" a person is. The best way is to probably just consider the RP you have with that charecter and then react like someone who has just found out something new, that may or may not be interesting (MHO)

Mele - Just though I would apologise if you thought I was picking on you with the narrow eyes remark. I wasn't. Its just that as a dedicated evil player, you get tired of all the gooides giving you the same reaction, despite the amount of hours of RP you put into the charecter, then they change how they behave and start treating you like everything you say is a lie, or worse, when if you think on the RP you would know it isn't.

Andreas - If you want to see true evil in action, then come to the Keep (er...best not as Andreas

as there are many excellent Rp'er there that weave subtle plots and intrigues.....

Stayne
"I'm so happy, cause today I found my friends...there in my head"

Lukian · Post by **Lukian** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:26 pm

I would like to take this time to thank you all for your absolutely excellent posts on this topic....I have a MUCH better understanding of where the players stand on this subject.

Andreas...as usual, you posted and said EXACTLY what I was hoping for. Also, I have seen a certain char play very well. I cannot say her name, but many of you know her, and she plays a MILLION hours a day. she is the spidomy of evil but good. many of us have been helped by her despite her evils, and even now, I am in a VERY deep plot that she has concoted that would make her a goodie-evil. I bet you know who she is

but I'll hush hush now.

Aran · Post by **Aran** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:25 pm

I came across a lit fire in the square and figured it would be a good topic for discussion.

I think it would seem kind of odd for a watch guard to let a fire in the square go unnoticed, so should lighting a fire within the market ( or anywhere in the city ) be considered a crime?

Tychina · Post by **Tychina** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:38 am

hmm A while ago, before I had to go inactive, I seem to remember this being brought up. I got the impression at the time, that lighting one in the square was forbiddon, and that the guard would stop whomever was attempting such. I do remember seeing atleast one person wanting to light one and having to leave the square first.

As for wether it should be a crime to light one in the city at all.. I think that would depend on the reason for lighting it, and the location you chose. There is plenty of food to be had in the town, and some of it fairly cheap, that you should not have a need to light a fire and cook. On the other hand, if done in the right place, using a fire for cremation purposes I can understand.

Aran · Post by **Aran** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:10 am

I can understand the need for fires in some locations as well. And during role plays it could be utilized. In this case though, the fire was apparently used to melt down some things. I do think the market square guard should arrest those who create fires in the market, because I just don't see any good reason for there being a fire there. You're not going to cremate corpses in the square

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:16 am

Not to be one to set, suggest, and sometimes follow the laws and rules of Waterdeep, I find this an interesting topic. Personally, fires made by characters, in my mind, are small fires about 1 foot or so across. Not a huge blazing inferno (perish the thought). So, fires for PRACTICLE rp uses would seem fair to me. A small fire to warm yourself by while chatting with a few friends in a chilly hail storm or something like that would seem an appropriate use for fires to me. Setting a fire just to melt things down in the middle of a large market square...umm, not very good rp I would think. I mean, fire? Yes, in some cases. Melting hazardous, scolding hot metals in a crowded area? No. Just my two cents on the topic, feel free to agree....or not.

N.R.

Tychina · Post by **Tychina** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:20 pm

mm I dunno, personally, if a character is going to rp actually feeling the cold from a hail storm (meaning they actually take note of the weather and include it into their rp) then would they not retreat to some indoors place to continue their chatting?

I have seen very few people include the games actual weather in their rp. So I cannot see this as a reason for a fire in the town square. Are there fires in cities? Yes, usually in some alley, where beggars and homeless are trying to warm themselves, more often then not, in the worst part of towns. Not in the hub of a town.

I have seen a few people include the weather into their rp, I am not saying no one does, just that I rarely see it. As for those that do rp the weather.. A fire, even a big bonfire, would not warm you in a hail storm. Your hands, face maybe, but not much else. A fire the size of which you speak would be rapidly extinguished if it was not constantly fed. This said, after a little more then a year living in the woods in a tent ^--^

Lathlain · Post by **Lathlain** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:07 am

Try lighting a fire in any kind of condition that isn't incredibly dry... It's not a lot of fun!

The lighting of fires in a town is pretty much out of the question in my eyes. If I saw someone in the town where I personally go to roam aimlessly and they were trying to light a fire, or had lit a fire, I would probably do no more than eye them dubiously and walk past. Others I know would question the individual in person as to their motives.

Why are they lighting a fire?
To burn rubbish? It can be done elsewhere, surely?
To keep warm? Then wear more... Don't go out in T-shirt and shorts if it's the middle of winter! If you simply neglected to prepare for the worst (and it does happen), then get inside before you catch a chill.

As a rule I won't alter the course of roleplay for the timely intervention of rain, but it has been known. Hailstorms and blizzards, I'll nearly always react to by taking cover or by having someone cast a protective spell on my character to take the edge off the weather... The latter is a bit awkward for the sake of RP, understandably.
Going back to the original post about fires in the market square specifically, yes I think it should be a crime. Not an arrestable one, necessarily, but definitely worthy of a warning. Where I live, I'm fairly sure anyone trying to set anything alight, even a few sticks they happen to have been lugging around for whatever reason, is considered to be arson of varying degrees.

You'll always get someone who tries to bend rules, or who simply acts out of ignorance to them, but to make it plainly illegal to create fires in the market square is a little excessive. If you see it happen, act as you deem necessary. Ask them why, marvel at their ability to light a fire in the driving rain... Whatever! It's all a part of the charm that comes with spontaneous roleplay. If there was a generic way of acting in a certain situation, and everyone acted on this, it wouldn't be any fun!

Mingus · Post by **Mingus** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:32 am

How do you extinguish fires, besides burying it? I've tried emptying my skin on it, but that did nothing. I've cooked a waterskin so I know thats not it. So what can be done when your on hard ground?

If there is no command. May I suggest holding a skin of water and typing extinguish. With a little echo that you dump some water on the fire.(using skins of liquor should flare up the fire)

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:31 pm

Fires, though usually ill-rped, can be created through magical means with produce flame spell. Though I have seen no limitations on how large or small, I assume it can rane to a small blaze to a candle flicker. If it is needed for rp It is all well. THough if used just to cook food or somehting else it should be used outside of town.

To extinguish a fire, i believe you can 'empty waterskin fire' or what I do is use a flask of water, drop it, then cook water. That will put out the fire.

Twyrnea · Post by **Twyrnea** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:17 am

The fire in the market square is unsure for me...I've seen it happen and no one usually goes nuts, but now that I think of it, it really doesn't seem like a good idea to me...

But I have to say, fires inside the city but away from the market can be very useful. Recently, there was an rp with the fountain being frozen, and Twyrnea drank some and became 'chilled to the bone'. Several characters were trying to warm her for quite some time, and near the end of the rp they ended up lighting a fire while she sat by it.

Also, I've seen characters light fires to ward off a chill from a cold breeze (I myself try to RP weather as much as possible), and to heat their food.

I mean, how long can a hearty stew possibly stay warm, and who wants to eat a cold stew?

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:55 am

Personally, I think it's very poor RP to light a fire in the market.

Try lighting a fire in a trash can at the mall by the fountain then explain to the police that you were cold. Don't think it'll go over very well...

And as for reheating that stew... what are you carrying it in, hmmm? Since we've already covered the debate about the non-existence of canned food in Faerun, and I DO believe the specific issue of stew was addressed on the old board, reheating stew shouldn't be a concern unless you really ARE pouring it into your backpack and toting the whole soggy mess around...

Tierney · Post by **Tierney** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:21 am

Personally I am glad that my character doesn't have a detect evil ability. That way I can choose to like or dislike people on thier rp, not on some aura. Usually I can tell withen 30 seconds whether a char is 'evil' or not, but unless the 'evil' char does something directly to anger my character, I'll continue to treat them the same as I would a 'good' character.

Tychina · Post by **Tychina** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:39 pm

I agree, I wouldn't want to know. Not that way. For the most part, my character doesn't give a hoot what alignment people are. And it makes things rather interesting when you make friends with someone, and have been traveling around with them, helping each other out, then find out that they are good/evil (whichever you aren't) or say, that their chosen deity is a direct enemy to yours.. then you have a whole new ballgame for RP, how will your character react? Will S/he opt to remain friends, or slip into neutral and just be aquaintences? Or will you go all out and be open enemies? And then you have the other person, and how THEY will react, while your chaarcter may choose to remain friends, perhaps garnering disfavor from their deity, what if the other person decides they just cannot be friends any more? A little suspence and suprise, adds a bit of something I think.

As for Waterdeep, and people saying there isn't enough places to go to find people to RP with outside waterdeeps square.. eh personally, I dislike waterdeep, it's too active, to busy. It gets mildly annoying when everytime my character meets someone and starts having a conversation, they try and drag her off to waterdeep to sit and chat. If we are near waterdeep I can see, but in Berdusk? Why go to waterdeep? My character is a bit like me, ok, a lot like me, she does not like or do well in crowds. I go to Waterdeep to shop, or for errands, or to sit in the font and read while waiting on a newbie to apear from below so I can.. well rp hehe but very rarely will I go to the square, unless I need something. There are people to be found to RP with outside of Waterdeep, it just takes a bit of time and effort to find us

Sparlow · Post by **Sparlow** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:55 pm

Hmm...some interesting points being made here.

Okay, first off, Waterdeep is NOT a purely 'good' city. Although it is officially designated Lawful Good, in every major city worldwide, even IRL, there is a small element of crime. Whether this is a syndicate with vast shadowy influences in the underworld to a small band of roving thugs, crime is going to be more or less unstoppable.

The same applies for Evil people in Waterdeep. Evil's going to be present no matter WHAT you do to try and stop it. Even in a goodly city, evil people will crop up once in a while, especially in a city like Waterdeep where you have a thriving underground criminal force (Skullport). So you can expect to meet anyone from Elaith Craulnober, an infamous underground arms and contrabadn smuggler, to the insane Halastar, to even just simple thugs and kneecappers.

Now, regarding Detect Evil. Let's be honest, this is a game where alignment really means so little other than a guideline to RP. And this is true even IRL, what is evil in one land is normal and socially accepted elsewhere. Case in point: In Africa, it is customary to drink the blood of a freshly slain lion. In England or the Americas in the 1600s, that would have been considered the height of witchcraft and been termed evil. The same applies to major religions, some consider failing to wash hands a major sin, and entire holy wars have been launched simply because a member of another religion has been dubbed 'evil'.

That said, Detect Evil is not a true/false thing. There are many shades of evil, and it is dependant on your society. I know that on some of my characters I've done or said things that would be strongly considered to be very evil if anyone else said them, but he would still fail to register as an evil character.

For paladins, who have a very black and white view of the world, I suppose that Detect Evil is a reasonable approach to take. There are no shades of grey for them. Myself, however, I find that it is much more entertaining and challenging to try and find someone's alignment out through their actions, rather than with magic. After all, IRL, you can't just cast such a spell on a person. We all have a little dark side to us. If I'm in a bad mood that day, am I going to show up more evil than otherwise? And there are degrees of 'evil', if you like. Which is worse, an assassin with a code of conduct or a murderous orc? A society that ritually kills those too weak to fight is considered 'evil', but is that more evil than one that simply lets internal attrition wear down it's members, like the orcs?

Some things to think about when you are looking at alignment. Honestly, can you really quantify evil except as someone who has a set of view different from your own?

Satine · Post by **Satine** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:34 am

Hello friends, i´m a newbie player and i have tried mapping Waterdeep with the Zmud automapper but...it´s impossible, the rooms are linked in a crazy sequence. I have desisted to make maps, well it has to be said that the mud is more realistic isn´t it?... but i´m lost all time. I can´t go out from the temple of Oghma without be lost in a few seconds.

Please need advices from experienced players to play without maps. Some tricks to explore Waterdeep without be lost in a few seconds.
I´ll take any suggestion!

Thank you all, friends.

Granel · Post by **Granel** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:45 am

There are maps on the website and ways you can rp ic to find your wat around by using the map.
I know it can be hard at first but streets become so familliare in name and form after a while that you snap right to it

Also...
Make sure if you can use it that if you have trouble going round that your Vt interface is up and running so that you can see what you're doing a bit better.

the url to the maps is http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/maps/maps.html
Please make sure to rp using the map icly and not oocly

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:47 am

I would say the easiest way to learn the city is to walk it. Don't go to far from the temple just far enough that you can retrace your steps. Start by going to the square and back. Notice what shops are on that path. then branch out from there. Make sure to learn well and remember important things like how to get to the gates of the city and other places important to you.

Rhelian · Post by **Rhelian** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:01 am

Blythe would probably have to confirm this, but from what I've gathered Waterdeep was set out on a grid, and then the shops were added, making it fairly unmappable

Also, try purchasing a map of Waterdeep and refering to that, it really does help.

As for tips and tricks, try finding a few major north-south or east-west roads, then try to place everything in relation to those. That way if you get lost you can head in a direction till you find one of your selected roads, and get a basic idea of where things are.

Waterdeep

Lighting fires in the Square

On a side note...

RE: Lighting Fires in the Market

Problem with THE HUGE CITY OF WATERDEEP