PC feat/stat reset

[Lerytha]

With all due respect, its got nothing to do with "older players" "stepping forward". Its not our responsibility. Whether it is coded, done, completed, is down to the imms. All I've tried to do is give the reasons why it was frozen in a relatively reasonable way. Basically.

[Horace]

You have it backwards.

Staff serves the players. Players do not serve the staff. Both need to work together in different aspects and levels of responsibility to make the game as good as it can possibly be. To do so requires directness to point, and the removal of intimidation of players to feel their opinion on perceived problems don't matter.

I've spoken to 6+ players about this issue before posting it. While many agree with me in varying degrees, and obviously with my choice of presentation of the matter - all have refused to post their opinions on it besides Jaenoic. And this is due to the nature of the post you just made. At worst people feel their posts will cause discrimination against them, and at best their opinions benign. I would not have made these posts under previous administrations, I hope that shows the trust I feel with the current staff.

If you want the game to be great. There needs to be communication. Ideally, both up and down the ladder. But if nothing gets sent down, it's our responsibility as players to send it up. This issue clearly could have been handled better, on both ends. Egos need to be removed and problems need to be solved in productive fashion.

Communication & Delegation is the foundation of Teamwork & Success.

[Lerytha]

I hope nobody's intimidating you, Horace. I also hope nothing I have said has been "intimidating". Direct words to point out that the post might come across as antagonistic is acceptable, yes? I don't think people are saying "Don't post this!", but:

a) Reasons have been given as to why it is still frozen, I think? You make a fair point about "When", but I'd still rather not have it unfrozen unless it is CLEAR that we're not doing anything different. Until that point, it is better for it to be frozen.
b) The way your posts have come across have been demanding. It is a give and take, in this. Nobody's saying that the players serve the staff. I don't think that's what I said, at least, in my post just above yours?

[Horace]

Persuasive writing/speaking is based on the foundation that your proposal is correct. You don't pitch without absolutes. You make concessions after the pitch, not before.

As someone already pointed out, I've successfully made my point. As I believe you have as well, about our intrinsically differing views on the responsibilities of players and staff.

I'll leave it lie.

[Skeas]

it is CLEAR that we're not doing anything different.

at least not yet, eh?

oh, how clever i am.

[Lerytha]

I didn't say "it is clear we're not doing anything different."

I said "it shouldn't be unfrozen until we know it is clear... (etc)".

Just wanted to clear there.

Happy to agree to disagree with you, Horace. Thanks for the interesting topic. You can always be relied on for topics that at least make us all think.

[Skeas]

I know, I was just being a jerk XP

sorry, the tone of this conversation is way too hostile and serious and I thought some dumb-assedness would help.. It didn't.

[Lerytha]

AH! No, in that case, I'M sorry for being a jerk!

Seriously, I just should stay away from forums when I'm overloaded in University. In all seriousness, sorry, Skeas. I totally misread your comment and shouldn' have done.

[Larethiel]

Where is the benefit of this discussion?

[Skeas]

Where is the benefit of this discussion?

|:< You can't ask that kind of question without even making an attempt to create one yourself mister.

Ty is trying to make it beneficial [though maybe only in the short run] for players with 3250235 glory to max their characters [even if only temporarily] because he feels nothing is being done, which, we've not been given reason to believe is untrue.

The only mistake I find with the staff's decisions in this particular case is this;

Giving a two week estimated time while still in discussion of a feature with no adamant intent of implementation.

[Briek]

I think if we look back at the thread which suggested the reset you will find the rather key word 'possible' I am sure the staff have already considered a great deal about this and so what if our characters are a tad weaker for a short time? does it really make that much of a difference that a fuss is kicked up about it?

[Horace]

edited: I made a promise to let it die, so i deleted my last post

[Brodnur]

Hm, lots of interesting opinions posted here, so I thought I'd drop my own two coppers worth in the hat. While I can see how a lack of current information is disheartening, moreso when it is on a topic that has seen such heated debate on both sides, I have to agree that, as much as I myself would love to be able to convert stat/feat points again, if the new system goes into affect, it would be a looooot of wasted time, effort, and money. However, if the new, proposed system does not go into affect, I feel certain that the staff members responsible for locking/unlocking the glory system, will do so at their earliest available convenience. And if we, as players, have missed out on a bit of time spending glory points on whatever, think how much we will have saved up by not blowing them at the first opportunity! The issue, which I was told is still in discussion when I used the ask channel to find out about the lock on the convert command just a week or two ago, has no easy fixes, simple solutions, etc, etc. The concept of a global reset, over all characters, both new as well as several IRL years old, is one that is full of potential pitfalls, coding difficulties, differences of opinion amongst the staff members involved (I'm assuming the last, since it is still being debated ). There are just too many possible positive, as well as negative, ramifications involved for there to be anything simple about it.
Well, thats about all I wanted to say, well, that I'll let myself say, to avoid becoming obnoxious about it all.

[Skeas]

We just want to see SOMETHING happen, I think. One system or the other, as long as there's a system in place. Preferably one that doesn't rely on our fairly low staff base, but I'd be able to deal with anything [rather than nothing at all]

It's not really a huge deal though.

I just wana spend my glory on restrings |:

also;

The game is run by volunteer staff and runs on a volunteer time frame

If our staff doesn't do what they volunteered to do, maybe new volunteers who care more should be auditioned to help out.

Not trying to be rude - Sorry if it seems that way. But I can only think of 4 immortals who I've actually seen active [don't say there are 30 of them online all day in wizinvis, either.] since I joined months ago.

[Aveline]

The game is run by volunteer staff and runs on a volunteer time frame

If our staff doesn't do what they volunteered to do, maybe new volunteers who care more should be auditioned to help out.

Not trying to be rude - Sorry if it seems that way. But I can only think of 4 immortals who I've actually seen active [don't say there are 30 of them online all day in wizinvis, either.] since I joined months ago.

I've been debating about whether or not to reply to this thread..but I did want to respond to this. And Skeas this isn't aimed at you, I've just heard of a lot of people echoing similar feelings lately. I agree that with such active topics where so many people have concerns.. everyone should be kept up to date about what is going on when possible. However, just because you don't see immediate results with something does not mean it is not being worked on, and doesn't mean a LOT of work has not been put into it. This particular thing..a reset has soooo many different things that need to be worked out. Each of those things has to be discussed unless you would rather one single person just changing everything how they think it should be without taking other opinions into consideration. That might be quicker, but I imagine it would leave many people very unhappy and unsatisfied with the results. These things just naturally take time, and we don't always know how long they are going to take. And also, this is not the only thing that is being worked on. Several things are being worked on at a time.

I'd also like to say that my eyes have been opened recently as to just how much is being worked on when a lot of us think nothing is really going on. At any given time there are almost always quite a few staff members online and they are always working on something or another. Usually something I have no comprehension of. I know that these people care a great deal with everything that goes on in the game. Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there doing something to contribute to the game and make it better. And I know a lot more is going on behind the scenes than what I can see. The staff IS there doing what they volunteered to do. It just takes time, and as much as we'd like to set deadlines and say something is going to happen by this date, it just doesn't always happen. Sometimes unexpected issues come up, or one of the players suggests something that makes the idea even better and the idea has to be reworked to incorporate it. When that happens, maybe everyone involved can just try to be more patient and let everyone be a little more informed about how things stand at the moment. It is 5 in the morning and I haven't slept, so I don't know if any of this makes sense..but there it is.

[Larethiel]

Preferably one that doesn't rely on our fairly low staff base, but I'd be able to deal with anything [rather than nothing at all]

I must admit, I'd rather have a result that is thought through and worked out with care and deliberation than something that came through quick and is just anything

[Gwain]

Just a little background history.

The glory/feat exchange once functioned as a part of the Auroa's Catalog. Basically you held the catalog and initiated the feat/stat change. The difference back then was a very high ic monetary charge. This kept demand low, since only a small percentage of players were willing to exchange there glory, and coin for a feat or stat point. This went on for three years with little fanfare.

Eventually the system was changed to remove the ic aspects. Making it more lucrative for all kinds of players. The problem was that it unbalanced gameplay, whereas without you were limited to around 10 - 11 stat points, it could now be significantly increased.

I'm pleased that the system was frozen, I have no qualms about eventually losing the extra stat points and reorganizing my feat points. This way I will be able to use my glory for other pursuits when they become apparent in the new system.

Its not so much about losing out, its more about balancing, I see the need for that as a whole. I'm willing to to wait patiently for the result and trust that I can manage until the change comes about.

[Kelemvor]

If our staff doesn't do what they volunteered to do, maybe new volunteers who care more should be auditioned to help out.

Not trying to be rude - Sorry if it seems that way. But I can only think of 4 immortals who I've actually seen active [don't say there are 30 of them online all day in wizinvis, either.] since I joined months ago.

'Staff' is a term which describes a number of roles on FK.

Ask/Answer channel helpers, bug testers, help file editors, Faith Managers, Organisation leaders.. all are staff in soem form or another.

To me, the definition of staff on FK is someone who logs in with the intention of doing something for someone other than themselves.

With that in mind, I do find myself a little at odds with the 'new volunteers who care more' line. If someone cares enough to forgo their own mortal play and put themselves out there for other players then I for one am not going to say that they aren't doing what they volunteered to do.

Now it could be that I'm misunderstanding the post and perhaps the comments are aimed specifically/only at those staff with the power to change or fix things, that is Immortal staff.

If that's the case, four sounds about right...

[Skeas]

I meant immortals, yes.

Sorry for not clearing it up

[Zorinar]

Hi,
I hope no one minds if I add a few cents here.

I actually didn't know there was currently a lock on the glory conversion and although I was hoping to convert some glory for a stat point or two, I understand that it was done for the best intentions of the mud. I don't know if this speaks for anyone else or not, but in my particular case I was hoping for the stat points because many quests are given to characters with a certain charisma score. I put most of my stats into my character to make him as "wizard-like" as I could. (Intelligence). I really enjoy doing quests and get a lot of pride out of figuring them out without getting lead by the hand from OOC sources. So, that was my one major hope of using the convert system (to get charisma) and I can guess that some others out there were in the same situation as I.

However, I can see the unbalance that the system gives, especially to older players that have been given more stat points to their character from the old system, and they know all the quests so it is easy for them to build up mega glory and build up unreasonably stat-powerful characters. So, I accept full heartedly the staff's decisions at the moment and I look forward to whatever they decide to do in the future, if they decide to do anything.

I take this tone for the following reason: I worked as an Immortal on an active mud in my younger days. We had perhaps 9 full members that worked nearly everyday. That mud was not bad, but I can tell you that Forgotten Kingdoms is absolutely outstanding in terms of the level of development and blows away that other mud. This mud has such refinement and 'maturation' of code that I am nothing short of impressed on every level. I don't know if anyone else has worked on a mud before, but it can be extremely time consuming. Getting something coded in is the easy part. Almost always, bugs crop up, sometimes completely bringing havoc to a seemingly unrelated part of the mud. Tracking down and fixing the bugs and getting things to work is a really big deal in some cases. Of course, there are also the players that find a way to abuse it, and you have to code against that and it goes on and on and on. Making a seeming simple change to the system could have the potentially disrupt the mechanics of the entire game and cause a global mess. (And I wonder if the convert system was doing just that to the game) Things need to be thought out slowly and tested carefully whenever the core mechanics are being changed. Something like that just cannot be done on short notice. With the level of care that has been put into this mud, I am absolutely sure that the immortals are working things out and not ignoring any issues. They are just going to need a lot of time and elbow room to get things to sort out. I would really like to thank you guys for such a great mud so far (players and Imm). This game is the only way I can wind down from the intense academic path I chose for myself.
Carry on the good fight!
Zorinar