Teaching, several months later

[Dalvyn]

Now that the new teaching system has been in for several months, what are your experiences with it? Did you use it? Are they worthy investments of feat points? Does the system work well? Did you establish master-student relations?

[Gwain]

I found it fun an profitable, though it does take some doing to make the time necessary to teach.

[Alvirin]

Answering the questions plus my personal thoughts

1) Very good, it led to sort of "scholar" RP that otherwise would have been very difficult to portray with also interesting RP teaching scenes (I haver never witnessed a "bad" teaching RP, all were very interesting)

2) Yes

3) Worthy for the sake of RP? Sure, they promote it - but three/four feats for the sake of RP can be very expensive, a character who chooses to become a specialized teacher for the sake of RP will have to give up something for it without any "real" interesting compensation opposed against a student that would be able to learn for example high level spells from a teacher without spending four feats (if objects/money/favors are worth 3-4 feats it's something up to discussion)

4) Nope

Personal thoughts:

Now that you can't change glory in stat points, if your class doesn't make an extensive use of WIS, INT or CHA, it's very difficult qualify for Teacher II AND Scholar II, I would lower the stat requisites if just a bit

I suppose that scholar II makes more sense for some classes than others, particularlly there isn't anything really so interesting/useful beyond level 30 so a thief teacher would spend a point for scholar II. <-Very personal opinion.

I have never seen an increase in detrap/lockpick/search/posiblely others as well (and I really tried, but perhaps I got bored very quickly) perhaps they increase very slooow as some skills so in the case you got teacher II to teach them in the end the student likely will train the skills from mobs to be able to use them at a proper level, the teaching RP has been there but the fact that after teaching someone you would have to pointed them towards a trainer would give me a sour taste.

Sorry for this "beautiful brick"

[Dalvyn]

I suppose that scholar II makes more sense for some classes than others, particularlly there isn't anything really so interesting/useful beyond level 30 so a thief teacher would spend a point for scholar II. <-Very personal opinion.

That was my reasoning too. Non-spellcasting classes do not really need Scholar II.

[Lathlain]

I haven't had a lot of exposure to the new system, which could be taken as a negative thing in any case.

What I've seen of it has been absolutely wonderful - and a few successful teacher/student roleplays generated out of this can only be a good outcome! I will fully agree that the cost in talent points still feels excessive however, and is likely to hold people back from becoming teachers who might otherwise - especially older characters who aren't in a position to build their feat point allocation around this cost.

[Briek]

I agree on pretty much all the points here as it is overall a great system but it seems a little too much to ask players to give up that much when they are the ones putting quite a bit of effort into the whole teaching RP, if anything they should be gaining more from those efforts, besides the IC pros for character development and roleplay.

[Balek]

I have used the system several times as a student. I enjoy the experience of learning from an actual person instead of a trainer, but right now the utility of learning from a person is quite low. All of the spells I can learn from my PC teacher are spells I can learn from a mob (to a much higher level). This leaves only the benefit of saving a few platinum here and there (which is nice) and some fun RP (which is...fun). For the system to really be useful we're going to need to see higher level scholar and teacher feats distributed so that people can actually learn spells that aren't available through trainers and can learn spells to a high enough level that they don't need to run off and complete their training using an NPC.

As for whether it's worth spending the feat points on these feats, I'd probably consider it with a spellcasting class. I wouldn't do it as a fighter/thief/etc. There are too many other feats that are useful to me as a fighter to consider it. If fighter bonus feats came in I would consider taking teacher feats.

[Briek]

raising the teaching abilities that these feats give could really help the system take off, if PC teachers were able to teahc to a high level, through several lessons of rp and not just one then not only would it be more popular but also would lesson the need to spend countless hours grinding away to raise the skills that are taught.

[Alvirin]

I don't know if this is possible, but if the teaching feats had other benefits besides those really do people might have less qualms to training them.

Random suggestions;

Teacher I; You get 3 increases in a skill/spell/trade of your choice, you can take it whenever you want no matter when you trained this feat, but it wouldn't allow you to get a numeric skill level beyond the one you would able to obtain by regular training*

Teacher II; You get 2 pairs of 3 increases in a skill/spell/trade of your choice, you can take them (each one for separate) whenever you want no matter when you trained this feat, but it wouldn't allow you to get a numeric skill level beyond the one you would able to obtain by regular training**

Scholar I: For purposes of speed advancement in skills/spells/trades your intelligence is considered 2 points higher

Scholar II: For purposes of speed advancement in skills/spells/trades your intelligence is considered another 2 points higher

*It wouldn't allow you to reach a numeric value beyond the skill at GM or the spell level at your level determined by your wizard guild, unlike skill/spell focus that they would do so, so these feats wouldn't be made obsoletes.

**You might use several teacher boni in the same skill

[Takket]

I've had nothing but good experiences with this. The teaching RPs have been a lot of fun and continue to be lots of fun. I've used it quite a bit already for a variety of things. The system works quite well, but I would agree that the stat requirements (particularly teacher II and scholar II) do seem rather high. Other than that, I've established at least three master/student relationships and taught many other, individual lessons to other classes as well. All in all, it's a great system and I love it.

However, as I've learned in my business classes, improvements aren't made without constructive criticism. That said, I didn't think the feat "events" were the best way of going about giving out the feats. I was unable to attend most of these and, admittedly, felt a little left out knowing those events were the only way I could get those feats. I do understand, though, that it probably is the easiest/most convenient way for the IMMs to deal with such things.

[Aveline]

Now that the new teaching system has been in for several months, what are your experiences with it? Did you use it? Are they worthy investments of feat points? Does the system work well? Did you establish master-student relations?

I've used the new system a lot, on both sides, teaching and learning with all different classes. All of the experiences I have had learning from others have been a lot of fun. Most of the experiences I have had teaching have been a lot of fun as well, but there have also been some duds. I'll get into the feat points a bit later, but would like to say that I think when it is used, it is a very good system that works well. The problems I experience are:

• Finding people that want to learn from PCs. A lot of people don't want to spend the 30+minutes rping to learn a skill to a level of inept, when they can just go to an NPC and spend 15 seconds training it to apprentice or higher. I think the only reason I get any people coming to me at all is that there are a few spells where Gesine is really the only place to get them.
• If you actually find someone that wants to learn from your PC, then there is the problem of finding someone that actually wants to rp the lesson. The vast majority of people I get wanting to learn from Gesine, seem to get upset that there is actually a lesson involved and I just don't automatically spam the teach command. Then you get the people that say they don't mind the lessons but then they just sit there and don't respond. They'll occasionally type 'nod' or they'll type 'shake' if I ask if they have any questions. Lessons go two ways and I can only offer so much when the person on the other side isn't offering anything back. I know I've had this rant on another thread..but.. These same people that don't respond, when asked about lessons I have given them say that they are short, and not really involved. It is hard to be involved when I have just a whole screen of my own says and nothing from the other side at all, even when you ask questions, there is just nodding, shaking of the head, or shrugging. The same spell, I had lessons with one person that just barely lasted 15 minutes. OOCly I really didn't want to do the 'teach' command but then didn't want to feel like a jerk for them sitting there for that long, and the person was a close IC friend of my character and I couldn't really justify her not teaching them after she had been through the lesson. And then I think the very next day with the same spell I started lessons with a different person, this time was a blast, and went on over a period of 3 IRL days. I think we had 3 one hour sessions. I know I had a lot of fun and I think the other person did as well. I'm not saying I want them all to be that long just... the right attitude toward the rp can make all of the difference. The people that come ask for lessons and then don't participate are I think the biggest problem. People say well then just don't teach them, but then that leaves me feeling like a jerk oocly. I'll just stop there with that one, because I could probably rant for days about that..
• Your other question was about master/apprentices.. That was the part of the teaching system I was looking forward to most. Gesine has had a number of apprentices. One relationship dissolved due to personality clashes, and all of the rest, the characters simply disappeared. Maybe get one or two lessons with them and then *POOF*! No more apprentice. I do not know if the players are leaving, or if the players are just deciding they don't like the apprentice rp and just stop playing those characters...or what. If it is the players not liking the apprentice rp, I wish they'd just give it a chance because I cannot ever figure it out because people keep leaving it. I thought maybe I was just really bad at it at first but then I found out that other people have had this problem with apprentices too. It is just a matter of finding players that will stick with the game, or with the rp.

I think all of the feat points used are a bit much. I didn't mind having to do the applications and all of that, but maybe keep the feat points for Teacher 1 and Scholar 1, but then just let the next two be something people apply for? I don't know if I even necessarily agree with my own suggestion there, I just think the four feat points was overkill and that maybe there should be an alternative for Teacher/Scholar 2.

There are A LOT of spells Gesine can teach. There are some spells she has focused on so that she would be able to teach them to higher degrees, but most of them she can only teach to inept levels because she only knows them to apprentice. A drawback of being a mage. I think this is an area where specialists could get just a little benefit over mages. Fewer spells to learn and focus on, and the spells from their school they can master to a higher degree and therefore teach to higher degrees. But I still do not see too many people coming to Gesine to teach them when with much less work they can just go to an NPC and train the skill faster and higher. I'm not sure if I would agree to the feats letting her teach them even just one notch higher because I think it is already a pretty big jump that she is able to teach all of the spells that she know at the apprentice level. I personally think that is already offering a lot. I think being able to teach to higher levels would help draw more people to the system though.

One thing I found as a nice surprise to the teaching was that how it helps to increase the skills you are teaching. You learn as you teach! That helps to prevent having to go out and train a spell or skill to get better at it to be a better teacher for it. It actually makes sense, the more you teach something, the better you become at it, and the more knowledge and little bits and pieces you'll be able to pass on to your students.

*ahem* just realized how long I had been working on this. I'll just stop now.

[Alvirin]

I like Aveline's idea much more than any nosense I have said, "sacrificing" two feats for the sake of RP it's acceptable, then if the character has taught enough different accounts give them the other two for free, those two free feats aren't going to make the character any more powerful, and the little that can get from them (faster skill increases) is compensated for the expenditure of two feats.

[Elke]

I thought I'd just reply having been through a lesson with Gesine IC and so being on the recieving end of those feats...Sorry if it did come across that Elke was just nodding. I tried not to do that too much but unfortunately the character is very much the kind of person who speaks when spoken to and not otherwise, and is quite intimidated by the idea of asking questions, in case her question offends or is interpreted as challenging someone else's judgement. The fact that she asked questions or interjected at all is testimony to Gesine's patience! I mention this because it's possible that other apprentices were expecting a lecture-style of teaching rather than one-to-one interactive tutorials, or, simply, were acting like a lot of students do in real life and don't dare to ask their questions. I'm thinking here of a lecture hall where a lecturer asks a question and no one raises their hand, afraid of embarassing themselves or whatever.

[Aveline]

I thought I'd just reply having been through a lesson with Gesine IC and so being on the recieving end of those feats...Sorry if it did come across that Elke was just nodding. I tried not to do that too much but unfortunately the character is very much the kind of person who speaks when spoken to and not otherwise, and is quite intimidated by the idea of asking questions, in case her question offends or is interpreted as challenging someone else's judgement. The fact that she asked questions or interjected at all is testimony to Gesine's patience! I mention this because it's possible that other apprentices were expecting a lecture-style of teaching rather than one-to-one interactive tutorials, or, simply, were acting like a lot of students do in real life and don't dare to ask their questions. I'm thinking here of a lecture hall where a lecturer asks a question and no one raises their hand, afraid of embarassing themselves or whatever.

Elke it didn't seem as if you were just nodding at all. I had fun with you. I think everyone realizes there are those characters who are just naturally quiet or shy. It is in their rp to do so. You were fairly quiet through the whole thing, but you interacted enough that I didn't feel like I was just sitting there by myself. I'm talking more about the people that run around all hyperactive like, and bug you and bug you to learn a spell. You agree, but then they don't want to take the time to sit there and rp learning it. I've had people otell me and apologize if they aren't being very responsive but they are watching such and such tv show while I go over the lessons. You can tell when people are there just to get the skill and nothing else. And it happens, a lot. As many of these experiences that I've had with it though, I've had as many or more good experiences with it. There is a difference between having a quiet/shy character that isn't comfortable asking questions, and a character with a player that just isn't really there.

[Elke]

I've had people otell me and apologize if they aren't being very responsive but they are watching such and such tv show while I go over the lessons.

Ouch. I think that would just drive me mad!

[Lathlain]

To be honest, that's positively lousy behaviour. It might be to your advantage if you have a bit of a test or a quiz in your lesson just to make sure they've been paying attention, though I'd be of the persuasion who'd reschedule a lesson if the student can't be alert in the given timeframe.

Ultimately I'd say this about any roleplay, mind you. If you can't afford to devote your attention to FK while roleplaying for any reason, you shouldn't be roleplaying.

[Selveem]

Personally, I have only been trained on a single character, so I can't state that I can be very certain that this is what all players should expect.

The roleplay was brief (I think in all, it was about 30 minutes), but I have to say it was quite enjoyable.

Why?

• Because it wasn't another fetch-me-this quest or a go-kill-that quest.
  It allowed the teacher to express some of their personality through their teachings.
  It allowed the teacher to personalize their beliefs as to why certain components are required.
  It allowed the student (myself) to think about the possibilities of accuracy in the teachings.

Basically, it was thought-provoking. And, even though I know the reasons why the teacher may be wrong slightly OOC (and probably IC), to that teacher they were right. It is much like real life where some teachers are sometimes taught something one way and that is the correct way (to them). Often, to the point where they will defend it with questionable arguments (not pointing any RL teachers out, here, Lathander!).

I think it's also nice that some teachers' players adapt to the playing styles of the players of the students to best interact with them and keep their interest.

Big kudos to all teachers, just based off of my one teacher-student experience. Thank you for all making it enjoyable.

[Dalvyn]

Ok, so trying to sum up the comments so far :

(1) The system is a good addition to the game.

(2) "Burning" 4 feats on it is too much, and feat "sessions" are not the right way to do it.
2a - Solution 1: make the feats do something more
2b - Solution 2: make some of the feats free and give them when some conditions tbd are met

(3) The system relies on the goodwill of both participants.
3a - Unresponsive students, players that watch TV during the lesson.
3b - Some players prefer to go to a mob and be done in a few seconds.

----------

My comments.

(1) That's very good to hear.

(2) First about "feat sessions". I've had a few of those in the beginning to "seed" the system and see how it was going to work. But very quickly, the question of the cost (4 feat points) was raised and there was talk of a feat reset, so things stopped (because I would rather not make someone pay 4 feat points for those feats if the system was to be changed in one way or another).

2a - As noted above, teaching also makes the teacher improve at the skill, so that's a side benefit BUT I think it's also not much more than a just reward for the time spent roleplaying the lesson. Maybe it could be made that having the teaching feats make you improve faster when you use the skills too (because as you use them, you see new ways to teach/explain them and get a better comprehension of the skill). Thought for thought.

2b - That was my initial idea but ... the main problem is the "conditions tbd" part, especially when you put in cries of favouritism and clique-ism in the balance. That's why the first proposal used a "vouching" requirement. I imagine we could work on the idea that "if you have X people saying that you are a good teacher, you get the better feat for free", but then it can become an ugly popularity contest. We are open to all suggestions.

(3) That is true, and it can be a weakness ... because it could be easily "abused" by a "serial teacher" or someone else who would just ignore the "roleplay the teaching" condition. That being said ... my opinion is that it's worth taking the risk, because the opportunities this system opens far outweighs the risk of having some people abuse it.

3a - If worse comes to worse, I guess we can move on to a two-time system: first, the teacher would start the lesson with some "startteach <student>" command. Then the roleplay would take place, and the actual "teach" command could only be used later. Roughly, for "teach" to work, the following conditions would need to be met:
- both teacher and student should have been online and active (at least X say/smote) and together during the last 15 minutes
- the teacher should have used "startteach <student>" at least 15 minutes earlier

3b - In my view, learning from a PC teacher should be a far more favourable option than learning from a mob, and the cost in gold pieces and the opportunity for roleplay are not enough to distinguish between those two options. One solution might be to raise the mob training cost (exponentially ... so that basic training for low-level characters is not made much more expensive, but training of skills for level 15+ is raised a lot).

Opinions, comments, and ideas welcome!

[Hviti]

Getting to the party a bit late, but a few things...

There are A LOT of spells Gesine can teach. There are some spells she has focused on so that she would be able to teach them to higher degrees, but most of them she can only teach to inept levels because she only knows them to apprentice. A drawback of being a mage. I think this is an area where specialists could get just a little benefit over mages. Fewer spells to learn and focus on, and the spells from their school they can master to a higher degree and therefore teach to higher degrees. But I still do not see too many people coming to Gesine to teach them when with much less work they can just go to an NPC and train the skill faster and higher.

Yes, specialists can teach their school's spells to a higher level; however, since their nonguild spells are capped at lower levels than mages, they overall can teach fewer (1-2 schools less worth) spells to lower levels (~2 skill levels lower than a mage). This relates to:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7842&start=40
and
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7552&start=0

I've experienced one teaching RP on the student end and I'd say it was an excellent experience.

I've taught about 4x that I recall and had two really good teaching experience (motivated student, plenty of questions, etc.) and two really bad ones (of the nod/shake/10 min. and wants the lesson to be over variety).

I have one character who I would like to use in teaching RP but am not sure if I want to use for that because of:
A) the hefty feat/glory pt. requirements
B) the specialist wizard skill caps making his teaching in all but 10ish spells less useful than a mage's (and blocking training of 2 schools of spells). It'd kind of disappointing to only be able to raise a spell to novice and then have to say, "Well, y'know that trainer x can actually teach you twice as well as I can on this"

I would echo Takket's comment on the feat hand-out parties having kept some would-be teachers from getting their feats and reaching full effectiveness. On the other hand, I agree that the costs need working out before putting the option for all 4 back - however, I hope that this doesn't lead to the 4 never being offered for years because the idea is abandoned. I would heartily support a new way to acquire the 4 feats and hope that it can be implemented soon. Thanks.