PC merchants, availability of goods

[Dalvyn]

An idea I would like to let you comment, while we are revising component availability (but which could be extended to other kinds of goods).

Let's consider one type of goods that can only be bought (they might be crafted too, but crafting is hard, or takes a long time, or is just not really worth it since the goods are not too expensive). Normally, we would put a shop selling them in Waterdeep and one in Zhentil Keep (well, at least two shops - maybe more).

Is there a sense to creating an unbalanced situation where this kind of goods is sold only in one place (e.g., Waterdeep, or Zhentil Keep, or Silverymoon) and create a need for PC merchants or PC go-between who would be able to make some coins by procuring the goods to people who cannot, or cannot easily access the shop.

i.e., is there some interest for roleplaying vendors (travelling merchants, maybe with carts, who might have access to some lines of resources like exclusive shops or cheaper warehouses)?

[Lathander]

Good question. I've always thought of PCs in rp games as "adventurers" not "vendors." That doesn't mean you can't have the adventuring-merchant, but I would tend to categorize those types of adventurers as "retired."

[Dalvyn]

Well ... the same could be said about tradesmen (weapon/armour smiths, bowyers, ...).

[Arnof]

I've gotta tell you, this has been something I've wanted to see come about for years, assuming I understand what you're saying. I think the idea was kind of there with the Merchants Guild, but this is, to me, a more entertaining and valuable iteration of the idea. Spot on.

[Gwain]

The usage of a neutral third city for trading quests, factories and guilds might be a good idea. A place where all races could converge to do business to provide goods to the rest of the realms.

[Belose]

I noticed in the help files about dwellings you could get a locking cart... and Belose is working hard to get the money to be able to have one.. a travelling component shop. He knows where at least 3 component shops are soooooo...... does it require an application? I put the component shop on the ask channel and was told there is a bug with PC owned stores.....what's up with that?

[Dalvyn]

It's all at the discussion stage currently, and it's still just a project that needs to be debated with the other imms first.

But these are the options I'm currently considering:

- Favourising "travelling shops" (where the trader actually interacts with the clients and generates roleplay) over the old static "dwelling shops"; that is, making the "travelling merchant" option all at once possible, interesting and rewarding.

- This could indeed very well be considered as an IC perk associated with a merchants' guild.

- We need to regulate access to those warehouses in a thoughtful and clever way. Things would be sold at a reduced prices there, but we don't want people to join the merchant's guild (or whatever it takes to gain access to the shops) just to be able to shop at a reduced price without bothering to actually play the merchant's role.

- Offer various ways to get items (I'm thinking about components for example):
--- (cheaper way) produce/craft/collect the components yourself - might not always be possible, depending on the raw resources you can access
--- (middle way) buy them from another PC (either a producer, a travelling merchant)
--- (expensive way, backup solution) buy them from a mob - might not always be possible, and should cost a lot more

For example ... yuan-ti eyes.
--- You might get a group going and go kill some yuan-tis then get their eyes. It might be hard, it might take time, and it might not be possible (if you are too low level or can't find a group or can't access an area where there are yuan-tis.
--- You might buy them from a travelling merchant, or hire people to get eyes for you.
--- You might go and find some shop and buy them at a very high price.

[Duranamir]

I have to say i have been playing the role of travelling component merchant now for years though the situation in the underdark is a little different from the surface. I would welcome any additions to the game to help support this sort of RP. The construtction of one or mote neutral meeting points where merchants could meet including the evil and monstourous races merchant representatives would help to support the whole process especially if they included some message posts where people could post there wants and needs. Tieing these areas to membership of the merchants guild would help to control it and allow some control over who counted as "merchants".

The three level approach outlined by Dalvyn is a very good idea as there does need to be a variety of means of getting at the components. I have characters who are pretty much self sufficient in components but there always need to be a backstop of the shops as a final possiibility.

I also support the idea of having certain items only available at certain places to encourage trade between players and groups. The more reasons characters have to interact the better. Placing some of the rarer items in logical game places accessible to only certain races or alignments for example. I did note the first elements of this in the distribution of the crystal formations.

Duranamir the merchant mage.

[Alvirin]

I
- We need to regulate access to those warehouses in a thoughtful and clever way. Things would be sold at a reduced prices there, but we don't want people to join the merchant's guild (or whatever it takes to gain access to the shops) just to be able to shop at a reduced price without bothering to actually play the merchant's role.

A thought that I had time ago regarding this would be creating tokens that would allow buying from these shops, these tokens would decay with time (sort of what happens with food) and upon dissapearing you would have to buy them again if you want. (renewing the permit?)

These tokens would be expensive, and I I mean it, to the point that the sum of the difference between how much would cost all the components that might need several spellcasters in a regular shop in a period of time and in these discounted shops would still be inferior to the token prize, so in order to don't have losses you would have to sell to others characters and so focus in your career as merchant. (Hope this makes sense)

[Horace]

I like this proposal better than what we have currently. But on a personal level, the idea of components being difficult to come by, seems unusually silly in the Forgotten Realms setting. I understand it's to promote interaction of PC's, but it seems at the cost of classes who use the components.

Bottom line - for the proposal.

[Aveline]

I'm probably an odd one out, but I like having to go collect the components and search for them. Gives me something to do and a lot of times it can make for good rp, getting people to go with you or to help you. What I do not like however, are the components that are just impossible to get because they aren't there. I do not mind using various tactics to get components, I wouldn't even mind if only a certain group of people had access to a certain components so that you HAD to trade/steal those components. Just so long as the components are there in some form or fashion, even if it is very difficult. You'll hear my characters complaining about it, but I think it's fun.

[Elke]

No. you're not the odd one out! I think it really does add to the rp aspect (I've always hated how components were dealt with in standard D&D) because it is entirely possible for two wizards, complete strangers, to strike up a conversation about the availability of some sort of component and bemoan the lack of {insert component here}. Which is the sort of conversation a wizard -should- be having. It's mostly just the incredible shortages, as you said, 'completely unavailable' is no fun at all. And some of them should be easier to get hold of.

What I feel is, the components for first level spells should be easy to obtain and available in multiple shops without barely needing to look, whereas the components for a fifth-level spell should require a reasonable level of hassle and the components for a ninth-level spell require an epic battle when that component pouch needs restocking. To me, there will be more low-level than high-level wizards about, so, the availability of those components for low-level spells should be high, because more people know about them etc. But the shortages are drastic, and the fact that in many cases it -isn't- possible to craft them in some way from scratch makes it worse. If it was worked from the ground up, then say, iron would be mined, then smelted, then filed for powdered iron. Talc could exist somewhere to be mined and pressed, saffron could be grown by specialist merchants in fields, in the same way that there is a craft process to obtain, for example, hides, which -do- have a use in spellcasting.

Honestly, if such were possible a sensible merchanting move would be to create a zoo or whatever to breed the necessary creatures as fast as possible for their components. Only now I have entertaining visions of escaped minotaurs missing a horn roaming the streets of Waterdeep...

[Sairaven]

Honestly, if such were possible a sensible merchanting move would be to create a zoo or whatever to breed the necessary creatures as fast as possible for their components. Only now I have entertaining visions of escaped minotaurs missing a horn roaming the streets of Waterdeep...

Didn't they try that in Neverwinter Nights? I don't recall it going too well...

I'm all for getting more components (especially the lower level things) out on the streets. I had always had the impression that the higher the level of the spell, the harder the components were to gather.

Mages are bound by their limited number of spells and by their components. Without the latter, they are squishy target decoys and little more.

[Grenwyn]

Honestly, if such were possible a sensible merchanting move would be to create a zoo or whatever to breed the necessary creatures as fast as possible for their components. Only now I have entertaining visions of escaped minotaurs missing a horn roaming the streets of Waterdeep...

Didn't they try that in Neverwinter Nights? I don't recall it going too well...

I'm all for getting more components (especially the lower level things) out on the streets. I had always had the impression that the higher the level of the spell, the harder the components were to gather.

Mages are bound by their limited number of spells and by their components. Without the latter, they are squishy target decoys and little more.

I wouldn't do the "zoo" in Waterdeep. Maybe the mountains just to the north, behind the School of Wonder.

But it does sound interesting. You could either sell the components up front, or buy a pass to go inside and kill the creatures yourself(if you were high-level enough).

[Elke]

It was Neverwinter Nights I was thinking of

I think honestly, I have found that the higher level you are the -easier- it becomes to get components, not the reverse.

[Belose]

I have a few thoughts about this topic again. I have one problem in playing the game these days.. TIME! Sure, I can RP the trading and not mine having to work a bit to get components. But the harder it is to get, the more time you need to invest in playing the game. I can't spend hours and hours trying to get a minimal amount of components. Another thing is that not only are some components used in high level spells/prayers are used in low level ones, too. IE: Witch Light and True Sight. That does not seem a balanced system to me. Another thing is how good your RL bartering skills are and how could you incorporate your feat of smooth talk, etc. into your RP? Go OOC HEY! I have smooth talk, you really need to give me some slack in your bargaining!? Uhm.. just as an afterthought, Braeck has storage issues which led to a topic that was in this line and someone mentioned it to Belose who REALLY loved the idea behind it for the idea of a travelling shop and I'd hate for someone yelling that I was sharing OOC info between characters because it really didn't work that way. I guess it would depend on if one of them actually applies for the idea.

[Duranamir]

One thing I think needs addressing is a way of linking a buyer and a seller; this is at the moment the hardest part of character to character trading. How does someone know that character A has a whole load of something to sell or that character B really needs a load of ore.? The obvious answer is message posts, whether we use a new set of posts in the various merchant guilds or start using the existing ones for this ?

What do people think ?

Duranamir

[Vibius]

Several characters already have used the public message posts, but I would like seeing message posts in several branches of the merchants guild where only those who have joined it might post and everyone could read.

[Dalvyn]

This could indeed go through a merchants guild.

The merchants guild would be a storeroom (dwelling) where people can store things, plus an organization entirely managed by players. There could be ranks, officers and whatnot, and some members would get a key to the storeroom.

Producers (miners, smelters, ...) could sell their products to the Guild (products would be put in the storeroom).
Clients could ask the guild if they have what they are looking for and members with a key could go into the storeroom and prepare a "package" for the client.

The merchants guild would set prices and so on; they could also hire people to collect things that are in high demand, and so on. They can serve as a link between buyers and sellers, as a link between players of different parts of the world (who might not play at the same time), as organizers for expeditions (set up groups to go "harvest" yuan-ti eyes, ...)

[Belose]

I think that's a good way to go, Dalvyn. It really goes a long way to meeting the demands for just about anything people need to get. If there's a demand, let the merchants figure out how to make the supply! I think putting a message post like the Font in it would be best unless you can make an NPC secretary or clerk that can keep tabs on the Guild members to keep from intentional or unintentional abuse. Maybe even a personalized Guild banking genie? Oooo! Oooo! They'll need secret shoppers!!!