These two commands can be made when character or mob is stunned, you can bind them with rope or chains and gag them with a cloth material. The bind would prevent them from moving, unless they were able to break the bonds. Which could allow for different types of bindings rope, magical rope, chains, magical chains (thick and thin) in each type. I know these items are already in the game but I think they could be put to use. The gag command would allow them not to speak which could stop wizards from casting spells or prisoners praying.
This could make for some great roleplay, and have the code to support it.
<bind> and <gag>
<bind> and <gag>
Yevel, Warder of Ilmater
Re: <bind> and <gag>
This would also be good ways to integrate and use 'use rope' and 'escape artist' skills. I also agree that it would allow for some cool RP. Maybe have it so that someone has to be stunned in order to bind them.
Re: <bind> and <gag>
These have been raised several times in the past, and although the concept is a good one, putting it to practice is less simple.
The main complicated points here are:
+ How to stop 'abuse' of the command - ie. leaving someone tied up indefinitely without hope of escape
+ How and when to inhibit its use - you don't want people being bound or gagged when it shouldn't be possible for whatever IC reason (such as from across a room, or when mounted). Should the victim have to confirm the gag/bind before it takes effect? That sorta defeats the point though. Having it restricted to be used when a character is stunned would work, but isn't particularly IC in all circumstances.
+ Why bother, when a good roleplayer will happily pretend to be bound/gagged anyway?
The main complicated points here are:
+ How to stop 'abuse' of the command - ie. leaving someone tied up indefinitely without hope of escape
+ How and when to inhibit its use - you don't want people being bound or gagged when it shouldn't be possible for whatever IC reason (such as from across a room, or when mounted). Should the victim have to confirm the gag/bind before it takes effect? That sorta defeats the point though. Having it restricted to be used when a character is stunned would work, but isn't particularly IC in all circumstances.
+ Why bother, when a good roleplayer will happily pretend to be bound/gagged anyway?
"This is General Lath'lain Dy'nesir, of the Ebon Spur. Walking Murder surrounded by a thin veneer of civility."
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-Miriel
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Horace
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Re: <bind> and <gag>
Precisely. If you establish with another player that you're mature and much more interested in the overall story of the situation than you are in the I totally dominate aspect of the situation, the player will allow it.+ Why bother, when a good roleplayer will happily pretend to be bound/gagged anyway?
I'm against any code that forces other players to interact with a specific PC or removes them entirely from being able to enjoy the game in a fashion that doesn't bother others. I'd rather log off and clean the toilet than sit around and listen to someone who cheesed my PC into a bind/gag situation.
Listen up! People pay good money to see this movie! When they go out to a theater they want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in the projection booth! Do I have to come up there myself? Do you think the Gremsters can stand up to the Hulkster?
Re: <bind> and <gag>
Well if you are like dude, I smoted putting a gag in your mouth, and tied you up, you couldn't have casted that they can be like well my god allowed it. Sounds like a bunch of immature arguing that takes the fun out of the roleplay period. To be honest, it would only check if someone memorized a spell at a high enough level that is still spell and silent spell combined. Or escape from the binds using a rogue skill. There are tons of ways to roleplay, and allow for many people to have a good time.
Yevel, Warder of Ilmater
Re: <bind> and <gag>
If something like this is created, it should have a high or even chance of failure to balance it out. Holding and silence spells balance well because of their percentage of success.
Justice is not neccesarily honourable, it is a tolerable business, in essence you tolerate honour until it impedes justice, then you do what is right.
Spelling is not necessarily correct
Spelling is not necessarily correct
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Horace
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Re: <bind> and <gag>
A simple solution is to not do things that restrict other PC's actions that you are not able to do without code backup, until you ask the player out of character if they would be alright with such a scenario. With this you won't degrade into arguing and you'll quickly recognize the players who are willing, and enjoy, the kind of roleplaying you also enjoy.Well if you are like dude, I smoted putting a gag in your mouth, and tied you up, you couldn't have casted that they can be like well my god allowed it. Sounds like a bunch of immature arguing that takes the fun out of the roleplay period. To be honest, it would only check if someone memorized a spell at a high enough level that is still spell and silent spell combined. Or escape from the binds using a rogue skill. There are tons of ways to roleplay, and allow for many people to have a good time.
Win/Win
Listen up! People pay good money to see this movie! When they go out to a theater they want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in the projection booth! Do I have to come up there myself? Do you think the Gremsters can stand up to the Hulkster?
Re: <bind> and <gag>
I agree with Horace. This is the kind of role-play best approached with another player who consents to it all. I believe that "smoting" these kinds of actions after a brief OOC discussion is the best course of action.
A coded feature like this has a huge potential for abuse. You could mitigate Lathlain's second point with some detailed coding, but the first...
A coded feature like this has a huge potential for abuse. You could mitigate Lathlain's second point with some detailed coding, but the first...
...is more difficult. You cannot force everyone with access to that item to be mature about how they are using it.How to stop 'abuse' of the command - ie. leaving someone tied up indefinitely without hope of escape
"A man may die yet still endure if his work enters the greater work, for time is carried upon a current of forgotten deeds, and events of great moment are but the culmination of a single carefully placed thought." - Chime of Eons
Re: <bind> and <gag>
Escape Artist (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
Check
The table below gives the DCs to escape various forms of restraints.
Ropes
Your Escape Artist check is opposed by the binder’s Use Rope check. Since it’s easier to tie someone up than to escape from being tied up, the binder gets a +10 bonus on his or her check.
Manacles and Masterwork Manacles
The DC for manacles is set by their construction.
Tight Space
The DC noted on the table is for getting through a space where your head fits but your shoulders don’t. If the space is long you may need to make multiple checks. You can’t get through a space that your head does not fit through.
Grappler
You can make an Escape Artist check opposed by your enemy’s grapple check to get out of a grapple or out of a pinned condition (so that you’re only grappling).
See also: epic usages of Escape Artist.
Action
Making an Escape Artist check to escape from rope bindings, manacles, or other restraints (except a grappler) requires 1 minute of work. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a full-round action. Escaping from a grapple or pin is a standard action. Squeezing through a tight space takes at least 1 minute, maybe longer, depending on how long the space is.
Try Again
Varies. You can make another check after a failed check if you’re squeezing your way through a tight space, making multiple checks. If the situation permits, you can make additional checks, or even take 20, as long as you’re not being actively opposed.
Special
If you have the Agile feat, you get a +2 bonus on Escape Artist checks.
Synergy
•If you have 5 or more ranks in Escape Artist, you get a +2 bonus on Use Rope checks to bind someone.
•If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Rope, you get a +2 bonus on Escape Artist checks when escaping from rope bonds.
Taking 20
When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks
The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checks.
Silent Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A silent spell can be cast with no verbal components. Spells without verbal components are not affected. A silent spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Still Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A stilled spell can be cast with no somatic components.
Spells without somatic components are not affected. A stilled spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
These are just a few examples of ways to get out of this. The 'bound' item could be something sorta like the peaceknot, except maybe attackable or something. This would simulate a str check to defeat it. Escape artist is a bit more obvious. All I'm saying is that with a little constructive thought, there would be ways to maket his work, and yet still have people have a chance to escape. Also, any escape attempts such as escape arts, or 'breaking' the bonds should have something like a 5 minute (yes, 1 IC hour) delay that gives you a message similar to when you fail to mount a horse or aid someone, "You cannot perform this action while under physical exertion"
Just my two bits, once again.
Check
The table below gives the DCs to escape various forms of restraints.
Ropes
Your Escape Artist check is opposed by the binder’s Use Rope check. Since it’s easier to tie someone up than to escape from being tied up, the binder gets a +10 bonus on his or her check.
Manacles and Masterwork Manacles
The DC for manacles is set by their construction.
Tight Space
The DC noted on the table is for getting through a space where your head fits but your shoulders don’t. If the space is long you may need to make multiple checks. You can’t get through a space that your head does not fit through.
Grappler
You can make an Escape Artist check opposed by your enemy’s grapple check to get out of a grapple or out of a pinned condition (so that you’re only grappling).
See also: epic usages of Escape Artist.
Action
Making an Escape Artist check to escape from rope bindings, manacles, or other restraints (except a grappler) requires 1 minute of work. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a full-round action. Escaping from a grapple or pin is a standard action. Squeezing through a tight space takes at least 1 minute, maybe longer, depending on how long the space is.
Try Again
Varies. You can make another check after a failed check if you’re squeezing your way through a tight space, making multiple checks. If the situation permits, you can make additional checks, or even take 20, as long as you’re not being actively opposed.
Special
If you have the Agile feat, you get a +2 bonus on Escape Artist checks.
Synergy
•If you have 5 or more ranks in Escape Artist, you get a +2 bonus on Use Rope checks to bind someone.
•If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Rope, you get a +2 bonus on Escape Artist checks when escaping from rope bonds.
Taking 20
When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks
The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checks.
Silent Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A silent spell can be cast with no verbal components. Spells without verbal components are not affected. A silent spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Still Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A stilled spell can be cast with no somatic components.
Spells without somatic components are not affected. A stilled spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
These are just a few examples of ways to get out of this. The 'bound' item could be something sorta like the peaceknot, except maybe attackable or something. This would simulate a str check to defeat it. Escape artist is a bit more obvious. All I'm saying is that with a little constructive thought, there would be ways to maket his work, and yet still have people have a chance to escape. Also, any escape attempts such as escape arts, or 'breaking' the bonds should have something like a 5 minute (yes, 1 IC hour) delay that gives you a message similar to when you fail to mount a horse or aid someone, "You cannot perform this action while under physical exertion"
Just my two bits, once again.
Re: <bind> and <gag>
I think that the idea sounds fun but probably it would need a quest and kismet cost/requirement to stop it being abused.
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Skeas
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Re: <bind> and <gag>
Elke wrote:I think that the idea sounds fun but probably it would need a quest and kismet cost/requirement to stop it being abused.
i would think the fear of being struck/banned would keep this abuse low. If there weren't strikes/bans, I think that there'd be random PKing, full-looting, etc. all of the above, whatever.
This wouldn't be abused for the same reason that we have the ability to take everyone's gear after killing them as soon as they enter a room, but still do not.
Also, regarding the "Why Bother?" comment-
Sure, a good roleplayer will roleplay being bound/gagged, but I know a couple of players who I could beat to stun right now, to within an inch of their life, smote tying them up and gagging them, and gaze at my screen stupidly as they stand, smote spitting in my face, and run northwest. Like Horace said in my thread, it'd be a perfect world where everyone RPed appropriately, but we don't live in that world.
Zorinar murmurs 'We need a fighter if we ever attempt that again'
Anya murmurs 'If Christoph were around, he'd be enough, I'd be willing to bet.'
Anya murmurs 'If Christoph were around, he'd be enough, I'd be willing to bet.'
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Horace
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Re: <bind> and <gag>
The hard part in pvp is the tendency to see it as a competition. It's not a fight, it's a dance. You need to trust the person you are going against to show your PC the respect your PC deserves.
Think of it like a comic book being written co-authored back and forth. Spiderman doesn't just buttcan Venom, there is back and forth for a long time....and when it is resolved, it typically ends in making spiderman look more virtuous/powerful and Venom looking more devious/powerful.
You're putting on a show, not a death match. It's WWF, not the Kumite from Bloodsport. Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect never wanted to wrestle Hulk Hogan because the Hulkster is incapable of showing fault in his actions.
This applies in FK. No good roleplayer wants to enter these kind of situations with a Hulk Hogan roleplayer, who can't sell faults. It'd be a sad day if this exchange was facilitated by code instead of asking that the player learn how to properly be involved in a player vs player situation.
A character who never loses isn't interesting. Recognize which losses are good losses, and capitilize on those in ways that build your character up while still losing. It's a difficult mindset to adopt, I know, because I've been thumping this for 4 years now and I still think maybe only 6 people on the mud fully understand it. It is by far the best way to run a pvp scenario.
Think of it like a comic book being written co-authored back and forth. Spiderman doesn't just buttcan Venom, there is back and forth for a long time....and when it is resolved, it typically ends in making spiderman look more virtuous/powerful and Venom looking more devious/powerful.
You're putting on a show, not a death match. It's WWF, not the Kumite from Bloodsport. Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect never wanted to wrestle Hulk Hogan because the Hulkster is incapable of showing fault in his actions.
This applies in FK. No good roleplayer wants to enter these kind of situations with a Hulk Hogan roleplayer, who can't sell faults. It'd be a sad day if this exchange was facilitated by code instead of asking that the player learn how to properly be involved in a player vs player situation.
A character who never loses isn't interesting. Recognize which losses are good losses, and capitilize on those in ways that build your character up while still losing. It's a difficult mindset to adopt, I know, because I've been thumping this for 4 years now and I still think maybe only 6 people on the mud fully understand it. It is by far the best way to run a pvp scenario.
Listen up! People pay good money to see this movie! When they go out to a theater they want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in the projection booth! Do I have to come up there myself? Do you think the Gremsters can stand up to the Hulkster?
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Skeas
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Re: <bind> and <gag>
idc what you say, every world needs more hulk hogans.
Zorinar murmurs 'We need a fighter if we ever attempt that again'
Anya murmurs 'If Christoph were around, he'd be enough, I'd be willing to bet.'
Anya murmurs 'If Christoph were around, he'd be enough, I'd be willing to bet.'
Re: <bind> and <gag>
I know this is only one small point I am making but I would just like to put in a bit on how this might affect Watch RP and chasing evils in the streets. Simply put, if everyone can just stun a evildoer/criminal then tie him up etc then I have no doubt in my mind that every guy and his mother will be trying to 'assist' watchmen in the catching of criminals, which would be a disaster ICly.
I suppose this could be classified as another form of abuse, maybe. What I mean to point out is, this would make the Watches job pretty pointless as for example, criminal shows up in square, criminal runs from square, watchman goes after criminal but so does pretty much everyone else in the square, we now have vigilantes running about left right and centre.
I suppose this could be classified as another form of abuse, maybe. What I mean to point out is, this would make the Watches job pretty pointless as for example, criminal shows up in square, criminal runs from square, watchman goes after criminal but so does pretty much everyone else in the square, we now have vigilantes running about left right and centre.
Re: <bind> and <gag>
That is a IC matter, And will bring in roleplay from that point of view, do vigilanties get punished for taking the law into their hands? What is the punishment? All this is IC points of view and will give roleplay to the Watchmen as well.
Yevel, Warder of Ilmater
Re: <bind> and <gag>
Yes, yes they do get punished. <.<Yevel wrote:That is a IC matter, And will bring in roleplay from that point of view, do vigilanties get punished for taking the law into their hands? What is the punishment? All this is IC points of view and will give roleplay to the Watchmen as well.
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Kirkus
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Re: <bind> and <gag>
Again regarding the "Why Bother with coding something.." comment... this comment has been put to too much use. We have stats for a reason, we have skills and feats for a reason. In my opinion, the more things like this that we code, the more options we have. To me it gets boring when there are no coded consequences, when you can just smot that you got away.
Leveran brought up the Escape Artist and Use Rope feats, Hey with this addition we would now have a reason to have use these feats.
As to the abuse-ability of this, once again we hide behind this too often, as a reason not to do something. We all understand, at least I hope we do, the gravity of the strike system. In my opinion as long as we clearly state what is unacceptable when using any skill/feat or anything for that matter, we should have no fear of abuse. Yes of course, it will be abused, everything or anything in this game has a chance of being abused. We have had players in the past that did nothing but looked for the loopholes that let them get around the code. They were given strikes, banned and helled. The appropriate response.
I think good ooc communication is often the key, for instance when setting up a pk or spar. How many rounds of this before we switch to that. In this situation I would, If I were the person binding and gagging the prone pc, say 'Do you have time to be bound for a while?' To me its all about how to properly extend the rp, which means communication and understanding. Everyone has to understand that the person on the other side of the monitor is another player, and they want to have fun too. Which is my way of saying the good guys can't win all the time, or it becomes no fun for the evils. Then we have no evils, and all of a sudden the goodies have no one to fight against, and then its no fun for the good guys.
Sorry for the long diatribe, long story short... if PC A beats PC B and says ooc 'Hey do you have time for me to bind/gag you?' At this point, the two decide the direction of the rp together.
Leveran brought up the Escape Artist and Use Rope feats, Hey with this addition we would now have a reason to have use these feats.
As to the abuse-ability of this, once again we hide behind this too often, as a reason not to do something. We all understand, at least I hope we do, the gravity of the strike system. In my opinion as long as we clearly state what is unacceptable when using any skill/feat or anything for that matter, we should have no fear of abuse. Yes of course, it will be abused, everything or anything in this game has a chance of being abused. We have had players in the past that did nothing but looked for the loopholes that let them get around the code. They were given strikes, banned and helled. The appropriate response.
I think good ooc communication is often the key, for instance when setting up a pk or spar. How many rounds of this before we switch to that. In this situation I would, If I were the person binding and gagging the prone pc, say 'Do you have time to be bound for a while?' To me its all about how to properly extend the rp, which means communication and understanding. Everyone has to understand that the person on the other side of the monitor is another player, and they want to have fun too. Which is my way of saying the good guys can't win all the time, or it becomes no fun for the evils. Then we have no evils, and all of a sudden the goodies have no one to fight against, and then its no fun for the good guys.
Sorry for the long diatribe, long story short... if PC A beats PC B and says ooc 'Hey do you have time for me to bind/gag you?' At this point, the two decide the direction of the rp together.
I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.