The Mobile 'Phone Menace!

[Saranya]

Yesterday in a buffer of 50 lines, 19 were amulet flashes from one person.

Did anyone talk to that one person?

The problem with limits is it doesn't account for situations where tells are legitimately used for RP and not distracting or abused. Talking to the dead was brought up and those ranger patrols from last year are another example. Watch City sweeps also come to mind, as does a recent RP where a big group was split into three groups to coordinate a search via tells.

Limiting tells would inhibit those RPs which are a lot of fun, and not solve the problem of 'chatting' which players also go off-game for. Altering game mechanics for the entire playerbase just to a correct a (perceived) problem by a couple players always seems to me self-defeating.

it seems rather silly to spend any time at all trying to force people to have fun, because fun just doesn't work that way.

Best quote ever.


EDIT - Didn't see Raona's post before mine. Umm...what she said!

[Melusine]

In respects to speaking with the dead... something one of my characters does fairly often... If tells are limited (Which I don't particularily like...) then I don't think they should be used up by trying to help someone who's dead. Unless there is the possibility, of using Speak with Dead so that your amulet 'charges' don't deplete? It would raise the importance of priests and that spell in particular. I have to say this, as if my character in question is going to raise someone, there are some important questions and conversations that need to be had first. Limiting that would make it very difficult to see about her duties. It would make it more difficult though, for people trying to get raised who don't know priests... or have trouble helping people to find their bodies.

As for limiting tells... It would make it really difficult, especially if you run out of charges and something comes up. I can just see someone running into the square, asking someone else to deliver their message... which could get old if it started happening. They were already limited once when the echo began showing up when tells were used, which made people use them less (for most people...) when there were others in the room. I know it did for me.

Perhaps if one particular person is using tells that much, speak to them... But I often use them to try to get to talk in person with people, and I imagine that is similar for others too. (Often are those 'where are you'? tells) I prefer speaking in person when possible... I agree with the previous comments, much better rp experience.

[Gwain]

Watch City sweeps also come to mind,

Actually I've only used my amulet for the following when engaged in watch rp
-Telling someone to surrender (one sentence)
-Asking someone to show up for questioning or review (one to two sentences)
-Telling someone to get out of my head and meet me in person (one to three sentences)

Most of the time I yell when I have to contact someone across Waterdeep for watch business since the watch's main theater of action is Waterdeep, we're generally able to communicate important information by shouting.

[Saranya]

Ah, nothing like a bunch of Watchmen running around the city shouting at the top of their lungs to calm a concerned public.

Really my point was that just because one player abuses tells, or doesn't need them at all, doesn't mean other players don't have a legitimate RP need for them. Us older players (especially ones who focus mostly on a single PC) tend to get into ruts about how we play and what our abilities are, forgetting that other players may have it harder or differently.

I just had a long discussion with my roommate about this. He basically quit the game in frustration after struggling repeatedly with another hotly debated facet of FK: death. I've finally lured him back ( ) but it was a good reminder to me to try to put myself in others' gameplay shoes more.

[Yevel]

I really like the charges, and if you don't have speak dead dont speak back to them unless you /really/ need to. That would force people to find a cleric to rp with. I love getting more people involved. And the charges would make people keep their tells to the minimum. There are items in the game that should have "more" charges. Special quest items, beyond that of a amulet of communication.

[Isaldur]

That's a great idea Yevel. Sort of like everyone gets the basic package and if they want more they can complete quests or perhaps have to put coin into it for a bigger pool of charges to use up.

Here's a suggestion. Take the "mind" portion out completely and have amulets broadcast whatever is being sent to them, and make whatever people broadcast into their amulet show up in the room as well. That way if they want to keep amulet talk "private" they can go somewhere private and spam it up ICly.

How many needless and or spam tells would disapear if the conversation is broadcast into "Room" hearing range? I'd wager quite alot.

Not to mention it would give thieves cant more of a reason to be used.

[Leveran]

That's a great idea Yevel. Sort of like everyone gets the basic package and if they want more they can complete quests or perhaps have to put coin into it for a bigger pool of charges to use up.

Here's a suggestion. Take the "mind" portion out completely and have amulets broadcast whatever is being sent to them, and make whatever people broadcast into their amulet show up in the room as well. That way if they want to keep amulet talk "private" they can go somewhere private and spam it up ICly.

How many needless and or spam tells would disapear if the conversation is broadcast into "Room" hearing range? I'd wager quite alot.

Not to mention it would give thieves cant more of a reason to be used.

I concur completely with Isuldur and by proxy Yeve's statements. Especially what Isaldur says about likely reducing spam, and the 'oocness' of carrying on multiple conversations. I think it even goes to alleviate what Roana was talking about, at least to an extent, about reducing multi-tasking and focusing on one task/person at a time.

Maybe the amulet could even needs be 'attuned' to one person at a time. "We're sorry, the party you're trying to contact is busy. Please try your call again later."

[Enig]

I think it's worth mentioning that not everyone who uses an amulet to talk to someone in the same room is doing so to spread malicious gossip, or even anything necessarily frivolous. If, for example, two people are examining a new hopeful, it would be more disruptive to the scene to have to constantly leave the room just to exchange a few quiet words.

Of course if there were a whisper command introduced this wouldn't be a problem. Incidentally, as far as whispering goes, I almost want to say that there should be some sort of skill check (maybe with an +eavesdrop config option) for people to listen in, but it seems like it might open up a can of worms in terms of applicability based on different rooms, ie. eavesdropping in the market square of Waterdeep at high noon would be pretty tough, most likely.

[Lathlain]

My main problem with amulets of communication is the fact that they're taken so much for granted at the moment.

As has been rightly pointed out already, these amulets are incredibly powerful artifacts that should by no means be readily available to everyone - let alone for the price they are! Now - I'm willing to overlook that element of it at least, because the tell mechanic is one that needs to be available for the smooth running of the game. That doesn't mean they should be taken lightly however!

Personally, I'd advocate bringing in charges for use of the amulets (or even take the amulets out, and simply have it as an ability with charges) - either that, or increase the stamina 'cost' by a significant amount so as to limit the frequency of use. I believe them to be both imbalancing and unfeasible in their current state, and that you can condense most important messages into one or two tells with relative ease.

Ultimately, if something comes up and you have no charges left, you've been over-using the amulet's incredible latent powers - it's that simple

[Aveline]

I've been putting off replying to this for a while because I can agree with a little of what everyone is saying. The amulet echoes really really annoy me to see so many of them in a place like the square, where it spams everyone. Or when you are trying to rp with someone, and have been waiting for them to respond to you for several minutes but in the meantime you see their amulet go off five or six times.

But at the same time, it would really peeve me more oocly to have someone tell me and not be able to respond to them. To me it is just rude to just leave someone hanging. And if someone really needed help with something and you couldn't get any information about it. And I think if I want to tell someone to see what they are up to, and see if they are available to get into some rp with, then I should be able to do that. Some characters are just busier than others...it is not at all uncommon for Gesine to be in a roleplay with a couple of people and also have atleast three or four people sending her tells at once. Many times I will tell them to wait if they can so I can talk with them in person about what they need to talk about, but sometimes when you are dealing with a lot of people it is just easier to get one or two of the problems dealt with via amulet. And I think I shouldn't be penalized on the number of tells I can use, if eight different people decide to send me a tell, and I send them a one tell response to let them know that they weren't just ignored. If after that I need to send a tell to someone else to get help for some emergency, I should be able to no matter how many tells I had to used before. I realize that icly they are powerful and this line of thinking probably lends to them being abused, but I think for the ooc social aspect of the game this is one of those things that we can put aside.

Then again, it really annoys me to try to rp with someone and then have that many people trying to tell me at the same time. I can see, and feel the horrors from all sides, but when it comes down to it I think I'd rather have all of the communication from the amulets. I think the interaction with them brings more than it takes away. I think they do more to get people together and to facilitate RP.

And as I switch back to the other side... -IF- a change with the amulets is put in, I like the idea about the charges or ability. I know 5 was just put in as kind of a sample number just to show the idea, but if this part of the idea makes it through, I'd like for the number to be higher or for them to regenerate more quickly than other things, like turning.

I still feel though, even with all the negative points brought up about the amulets, I'd rather they be left as they are. Pehaps just a few some in game echoes to help people be more aware of them, and to be more mindful of how they might use the amulets. I'll personally try to be better about spamming everyone up above.

[Enig]

I don't get it, really.

I think it's safe to say that a lot of allowances are made in the name of RP. PCs are able to travel immense distances unreasonably quickly, to avoid the dullness of travelling for untold hours, they can rely upon being (eventually) resurrected should they die, to avoid depriving the MUD of rich-historied characters, and sure, they can use amulets to chat over incredible distances to arrange for RP meetings, and to generally facilitate RP in situations where it would otherwise be impossible. That last part is worth repeating, I think. Just because a PC is chatting over his amulet doesn't automatically make it not RP. It's very similar to a say, albeit a long-distance one, and it contributes to the MUD not much less than if the two communicating PCs were in a room alone.

All that said I really don't understand how over-use of the amulets could be considered abusive or imbalancing but I can see how even a temporary inability to use them could create problems.

Just to throw out a few examples.

- New PC#1 contacts FM for information about faiting. FM can't return the call because he just used all his tells to coordinate a faith meeting. New PC#1 feels ignored and gets upset.

- New PC#2 contacts a priest he knows after he dies to get help for resurrection. The priest used up all his tells gossiping about the bizarre secrets of the Waterdhavian lords so he can't respond to his friend. NPC2 waits around for half an hour but can't ask anyone else for help because he doesn't know many people and the others he does aren't online. Eventually he gets discouraged and leaves.

- Faith Manager Joe has three hopefuls he's watching and he wants to tell them all about Faith Enemy Jane, who's terrorizing Joe's flock. He warns them. Let's say each of them asks one question. If he wants to respond to them all Joe has to have used six tells, which would put him over the limit of five (granted, I doubt this number was meant as a serious suggestion) in a short period.

On the other hand, with the new system we'd see a lot of benefits! For instance...

- Jill the Tymoran Gossip wants to chat with her friends about the latest fashion trends while she's idling away her time in the market. However, she can't! Everyone else in the market is spared having to endure some spam and Jill's friend doesn't get/have to learn about the new style of dress that's all the rage in Tantras.

- ...?


Okay, I realise that whole thing is a little bit melodramatic but hear me out, please

My point here is really just to illustrate my confusion regarding the proposed plan because I don't get how the benefits outweigh the potential cons. While it's pretty unlikely for any of my examples to come about if a decent amount of tell 'charges' are given I honestly don't see how it's worth letting it happen even a handful of times if the only benefit is to reduce mundane, gossipy, chatty conversations slightly. Granted, I admit that it's possible I'm missing out on something really fundamental here, and if anyone has any specific examples of how it would actually benefit the MUD to restrict the use of tells, well, I'm all ears.

Oh, sort of a post-script. Between the two proposed ideas I think I'm more in favour of the amulet costing more endurance at this point, and I think it would work best if that cost scaled up with the character's level. Ie. a level 1 might use a tell at a cost of 5% endurance whereas a level 50 might use 20% endurance. Well, something like that anyways.

Oh, post-post-script, because I just thought of this while reading Aveline's player's post. With regards to the charge idea, maybe giving players one free reply every time they get a tell (not a reply, though, to avoid an endless loop of two PCs replying to each other's reply, as it were) would help with this. It'd ensure that they'd have a least one line to coordinate a meeting, reassure an ailing ghost, or etc.

[Yevel]

Perhaps make a command that will send a tell out to everyone in the faith, that faith managers can have.

And as for a FM gossiping about waterhavian lords, he should be doing that in person with people. Not over a amulet.

I think that is what everyone is saying, and there can be quests for items that give more charges while the charges recharge with every tick or something. Five Charges a IC day to start out with and I know there are items that work as a Amulet of Communication that could have more charges than that. If a person has the speak with dead they can speak with the ghost as long as they want if their prayer is still in affect. Its not being unfair to say don't waste the power of a powerful relic on idle chit chat. I personally would like limitations on it.

[Belose]

I can see everyone has an opinion on this so I'm going to throw mine in. Charges are a bad idea. Putting a limit on tells will hurt those who need them the most. You never know WHEN you will need to send a tell. Everybody has some good points on this. Others have some bad points. Such is life. I really hate the idea of the IMM's getting spammed by stupid and inane tells and otells. My suggestion is the IMM's have a buzz button. They buzz whoever is doing this to let them know it's irritating and it knocks them out of using tells or otells for 5 minutes real time. I try not to do a lot of otells that aren't important, but I don't think I spam otells, either...at least I hope not. I think sometimes people forget this is just a game and take SOME things too seriously. I would hate not being able to play in FK.. but it won't ruin my life, either. I can always find someone with a console to let me play on. And there are plenty of flash games out there to play. But I still would rather play here. And limiting amulets would lessen the game. If worse comes to worse, someone could implement Postal Pigeons.

[Isaldur]

Enig, the point of this discussion isn't really on how to hamstring the positive aspects of the amulet because they are undoubtedly there and very much needed.

That said however..

Having the ability to contact anyone anywhere, as often as you want, and with no repercussions or drawbacks whatsoever, is not required for any of the scenarios you are depicting. An auto-response telling said new player that the person they just sent a tell to will be unable to respond until their amulet is recharged and or recharges would resolve the "Get frustrated and quit" scenario. Making players aware of the drawbacks and how amulets work before tossing them out would also help to eliminate most of your extreme examples.

If that doesn't float, then what about implementing an unlimited tells feature for accounts under a certain number of accrued kismet, or for characters under a certain level. I.E. Veteran players should know better while new players would have a leniency period to learn the ropes.

Almost every single reason to use one of these amulets can be done with a limited amount of charges.

How do I know this? Because that is how it used to work before the spell system revisions and the phasing out of the "mana" stat. Having it so people needed to venture to roleplaying hubs like Market Square to get information, goods, etc, instead of just shooting tells off to everyone under the sun enhanced roleplay. At level 30 Isaldur had more political clout than most of the 50's because I made good use of that system.

Don't like going to any type of "central hub" location such as Market Square in Waterdeep or the Market in Zhentil Keep? Get some spies to go for you and then they can make reports back in person. Where's the fun if there is no chance of a spy getting caught?

Don't have time to do everything you want in your position of authority? Do what people have done for ages and delegate tasks to underlings.

Not meeting with that psychotic priest of Lloth because you can safely chat away using an amulet is just a cop out and denying a chance for involvement. Hire some bodyguards, get some friends together, go enter that ambush for the hell of it. (Not a personal attack here Raona, it was just a good example to work off of that you posted.)

When you are dependent on other players it involves them. When they are involved it can only enrich the roleplay.

[Horace]

There isn't a setting or medium where a no-question 100% automatic without any cost or reprecussion device that allows you communicate across nations and even planes of existance....for 1 gold.

I literally think the argument "Coooooome ooooooooon!" suffices after that first sentence.

[Melusine]

Amulets being considered 'incredibly powerful artifacts' was the reasoning behind why limitations were put on the amulet in the first place... And from what I'm seeing restricting them further would really hamper rp rather than be an asset... especially when it isn't the entire populace that is abusing them. I'm not certain that the changes aided more than they caused annoyance. (Caused by those who spam tells, that is) There just seems to be far too many things that could be hurt for rp if such a thing were to come into the coding. Amulets are wonderful, yes... but I don't think calling them powerful justifies limiting them so harshly. Especially considering in the end that its still just a game.

RP can be difficult enough to arrange, especially when its with those who are outside of your standard Waterdhavian set... It just doesn't seem to really gain us any benefit to cripple the amulets... It seems far better to talk directly to those who ARE spam-telling, and the problem would be fixed.

[Leveran]

Well, people -could- try handling this ICly? If you're getting spammed with rapid firing of flashes from amulets, drop and go into an epileptic seizure. Or, if you're trying to talk to someone, and they're using their amulet instead of talking to you, tell them "Well, I'm glad to see our conversation is worth your undivided attention." Things like that. It seems the biggest complaint is spam. If you're in RP, and don't want to be bothered, take the amulet off or detune.

Adversely, maybe amulets can have a 1% chance of 'overheating' and exploding, causing the head of the person using them to go flying into the ether. That'd certainly cut down unneccesary chatter!

[Elke]

I think, honestly, that for me the problem would be best solved if one could hear out loud what was being said into an amulet and had a separate 'whisper' command for those in the same room. Long-distance communication is necessary. Secret communication also. But long-distance, secret communication?

I think that if that was the case more people might be inclined to step out of the Square to respond than have half the conversation overheard.

Sort of like, what other players see is:

Elke says, into her amulet of communication, "All right, I'll come and find you!"

Elke whispers to Tyeslan, "Let's go, before it gets any worse!"

Because flashing amulets are distracting, but eavesdropping on someone else's tells is more interesting. Alternatively, maybe make some busier areas impossible to tell from?

[Hviti]

Building on that, a no-reply zone on the market squares (WD, ZK primarily) would be nice.

[Dovan]

Alright... I like the idea of certain areas being restricted like MS.

Also I cheer on the idea of a 'whisper' command. I do my best to always smote out that I'm whispering to another in the same room if I'm using amulet to amulet communication. Also... perhaps a high listen skill check might allow others to overhear the whispering (I gotta use these super elven ears for something!).

Now then per the charges or higher stam lose idea. What if you were only able to send so many tells a minute? To be able to mental communicate against long distances should be difficult. Perhaps a limit of 2 or 3 a minute if that were possible, hmm?