The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
- Saranya
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:11 am
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Have we really established that this is such a dire problem it needs a harsh coded solution? Perhaps this thread's existance will be sufficient to give a reminder to people to be more considerate about their amulet usage. Is it really always necessary to hardcode a zot to an entire playerbase rather than deal with the issue in other ways? (Has this zotting approach really served the mud well in the past? )
I am in the habit of detuning my amulet when in the middle of a serious RP or I'm doing something else I need to concentrate fully on. People have grumbled at me about this before, but I think it strikes a good middle ground of facilitating RP when I'm available, and giving me time off when I'm not.
I really don't like the idea of having the amulets broadcast to a room. The point is to have less spam, not more. Ideally, I'd like to get rid of the whisper. Why is it so unreasonable in this magical Realm that there would be a way to reach out silently to the mind of someone you know?
I am in the habit of detuning my amulet when in the middle of a serious RP or I'm doing something else I need to concentrate fully on. People have grumbled at me about this before, but I think it strikes a good middle ground of facilitating RP when I'm available, and giving me time off when I'm not.
I really don't like the idea of having the amulets broadcast to a room. The point is to have less spam, not more. Ideally, I'd like to get rid of the whisper. Why is it so unreasonable in this magical Realm that there would be a way to reach out silently to the mind of someone you know?
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
No need for sarcastic eye-roll emoticons. We were all asked to provide an opinion by an IMM, so we are. That right there is basis enough to provide whatever suggestion we as players can think of in response. Especially suggestions that we feel may add to the game and create a better atmosphere of immersion for everyone involved. Harshness is relative because what is harsh to one player seems to not be so harsh to another.Saranya wrote:Have we really established that this is such a dire problem it needs a harsh coded solution? Perhaps this thread's existance will be sufficient to give a reminder to people to be more considerate about their amulet usage. Is it really always necessary to hardcode a zot to an entire playerbase rather than deal with the issue in other ways? (Has this zotting approach really served the mud well in the past? )
I am in the habit of detuning my amulet when in the middle of a serious RP or I'm doing something else I need to concentrate fully on. People have grumbled at me about this before, but I think it strikes a good middle ground of facilitating RP when I'm available, and giving me time off when I'm not.
I really don't like the idea of having the amulets broadcast to a room. The point is to have less spam, not more. Ideally, I'd like to get rid of the whisper. Why is it so unreasonable in this magical Realm that there would be a way to reach out silently to the mind of someone you know?
The point of it all however is to discuss the idea thoroughly because there is a chance there is a fix that will please a majority, if not everyone.
I would also urge everyone to read Dalvyn's response on the second page of the "Whisper" thread in Game Suggestions as you can find here. It's not a direct link because the post is from 2007, but he explains the reasoning behind amulets. Whispers
A sapphire haired male aasimar replies to you 'What would you get Tanya for a wedding present?'
You reply to A sapphire haired male aasimar 'A swift kick to the head. '
You reply to A sapphire haired male aasimar 'A swift kick to the head. '
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
I think the idea of charges is a good one, whether it be by paying for them as you go, or having the amulets recharge over time. I don't think it would be very practical to have them recharge at a set time each day in case of emergencies, and I actually think this would detract from RP opportunities. I think Isaldur suggested allowing low levels free tells, so cost of using an amulet wouldn't put them at a disadvantage when they might need the help most.
I also feel pretty strongly that changing the way they work to make them cost stamina, would put those classes that rely on stamina to do their job at a disadvantage. Casters were at a disadvantage when it cost mana to use the amulet and it's just the flipside of that in my opinion.
(As a side note, I noticed fairly recently that it's not possible to send tells when you're at zero stamina. In my case it didn't result in anything dramatic happening, but I could see that being a problem for exhausted low level characters who are bleeding to death. I'm probably way behind the times on figuring that out.)
I also feel pretty strongly that changing the way they work to make them cost stamina, would put those classes that rely on stamina to do their job at a disadvantage. Casters were at a disadvantage when it cost mana to use the amulet and it's just the flipside of that in my opinion.
(As a side note, I noticed fairly recently that it's not possible to send tells when you're at zero stamina. In my case it didn't result in anything dramatic happening, but I could see that being a problem for exhausted low level characters who are bleeding to death. I'm probably way behind the times on figuring that out.)
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
I vote that everyone gets one tell per coded day as thier "I'm a hero" gift. After that, they get an amulet with 5 charges (rechargable) and PC wizards and priests can recharge them.
And for those of you who play on a wierd timezone, maybe we have the girl at the post recharge them for a platinum coin or something.
And for those of you who play on a wierd timezone, maybe we have the girl at the post recharge them for a platinum coin or something.
Far away and across the field, the tolling of the iron bell calls the faithful to their knees to hear the softly spoken magic spell.
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Just reading back over that linked topic:
smote whispers to $Bob, "I'm thinking that that's not a good idea, actually"
- I have always gotten responses from Rod, Jane and Freddy who happen to also be in the Square. So much so that I've learned to only ever type 'whisper' into an smote to represent the sotto-voce or stage whisper. It remains absolutely true that no one is going to hear communication like that and not be tempted to respond. Especially since, if I overheard something actually -secret- in a 'whisper', I would be hard pressed to try to remain unaware of that secret.
Hence why I strongly feel the need for a room-wide only, PC to PC 'whisper' command that let everyone know what the two were conversing but only shared the message between those two, and perhaps anyone in the room with a high enough Listen skill or whatever.
I'm fairly sure that if someone tries to contact you mind-to-mind in D&D proper you can usually try to make a save to end the effect (depending on what the effect is) and it just doesn't last that long. Mostly in-game any sort of magical effect requires time, preparation, charges or meditation and so on. It's not unreasonable that the magic exists, but it is unreasonable that it's so effortless.
I also don't know if you've ever suffered multiple dialogues being struck up on the amulet but the effect can be confusing and even disheartening.
I mean, it's not even the equivalent of a conference call here, but rather more like the 80's yuppy with twenty phones on the desk, trying to juggle recievers. I feel it to be rude not to respond to someone elses tell - plus, my characters often end up offending people or getting in trouble if they don't - even if it's just with, "Sorry! Busy!" but with maybe as many as five different people telling to me asking me in-depth questions plus a party in front of me I end up neglecting the party and rp I'm with to try to tell back five different, separate conversations. That's six conversations in total including the people in front of me and I have neither the mental capacity nor the typing skills to deal with that. If it was actually fast-as-thought mental communication I probably could, but, it isn't.
The reason I really, really would like the amulets to broadcast the spoken message to the room is because I find a flashing amulet very spammy, and not even interesting - whereas hearing someone tell someone else, "Bob, come down to the Square, we're trying to raise a party to go to Undermountain!" would be more interesting and provide better roleplay.
What I am suggesting here is, what would be typed is:
tell Jane Meet at the Singing Sword? I have some potions to trade with you
and everyone in the room sees
Bob says into his amulet of communication, "Meet at the Singing Sword? I have some potions to trade with you"
which leads to conversations along the lines of, "Oooh, can I buy some from you?" rather than, Bob is standing in the room and his amulet 'glows briefly'...
If I am with someone and they are responding slowly to me and there's a lot of flashing going on, I get bored. If I was with someone and could hear them saying into their amulet, "I have no idea where to find that!" or whatever then the whole thing becomes more interactive, even giving my character the chance to chip in ("Tell Bob that you can find them in Silverymoon!") Which I feel would enhance roleplay, rather than the 'flashing', 'flashing' which detracts from it.
Well, that's interesting to see, because that's almost exactly what I've been advised to do by some PC's, that's IC as well as OOC...Removing the amulet of communication and using tell to "whisper" to someone in the same room is, in my opinion, a blatant code abuse, because you give people around you NO chance to notice what you are doing/saying.
Also, the fact that you can do so without triggering the message by removing your amulet of communication is clearly a dirty "trick".
I really do not like that.
Well, that's actually how I used to 'whisper' but I found that it is completely impossible to address a comment between myself and and another PC without everyone else reacting to it. I mean, really. If I type,The smote is already a step in the good direction, but it's still forcing others to not understand what you whisper. The best way "whisper" can be done currently is:
smote whispers to $Fred, 'The guard already had to remind him about sheathing his sword yesterday.'
because that allows other people to roleplay whether they overheard the whisper or not, and thus does not force any roleplay on them.
smote whispers to $Bob, "I'm thinking that that's not a good idea, actually"
- I have always gotten responses from Rod, Jane and Freddy who happen to also be in the Square. So much so that I've learned to only ever type 'whisper' into an smote to represent the sotto-voce or stage whisper. It remains absolutely true that no one is going to hear communication like that and not be tempted to respond. Especially since, if I overheard something actually -secret- in a 'whisper', I would be hard pressed to try to remain unaware of that secret.
Hence why I strongly feel the need for a room-wide only, PC to PC 'whisper' command that let everyone know what the two were conversing but only shared the message between those two, and perhaps anyone in the room with a high enough Listen skill or whatever.
Because it's incredibly powerful and also fairly intrusive.I really don't like the idea of having the amulets broadcast to a room. The point is to have less spam, not more. Ideally, I'd like to get rid of the whisper. Why is it so unreasonable in this magical Realm that there would be a way to reach out silently to the mind of someone you know?
I'm fairly sure that if someone tries to contact you mind-to-mind in D&D proper you can usually try to make a save to end the effect (depending on what the effect is) and it just doesn't last that long. Mostly in-game any sort of magical effect requires time, preparation, charges or meditation and so on. It's not unreasonable that the magic exists, but it is unreasonable that it's so effortless.
I also don't know if you've ever suffered multiple dialogues being struck up on the amulet but the effect can be confusing and even disheartening.
I mean, it's not even the equivalent of a conference call here, but rather more like the 80's yuppy with twenty phones on the desk, trying to juggle recievers. I feel it to be rude not to respond to someone elses tell - plus, my characters often end up offending people or getting in trouble if they don't - even if it's just with, "Sorry! Busy!" but with maybe as many as five different people telling to me asking me in-depth questions plus a party in front of me I end up neglecting the party and rp I'm with to try to tell back five different, separate conversations. That's six conversations in total including the people in front of me and I have neither the mental capacity nor the typing skills to deal with that. If it was actually fast-as-thought mental communication I probably could, but, it isn't.
The reason I really, really would like the amulets to broadcast the spoken message to the room is because I find a flashing amulet very spammy, and not even interesting - whereas hearing someone tell someone else, "Bob, come down to the Square, we're trying to raise a party to go to Undermountain!" would be more interesting and provide better roleplay.
What I am suggesting here is, what would be typed is:
tell Jane Meet at the Singing Sword? I have some potions to trade with you
and everyone in the room sees
Bob says into his amulet of communication, "Meet at the Singing Sword? I have some potions to trade with you"
which leads to conversations along the lines of, "Oooh, can I buy some from you?" rather than, Bob is standing in the room and his amulet 'glows briefly'...
If I am with someone and they are responding slowly to me and there's a lot of flashing going on, I get bored. If I was with someone and could hear them saying into their amulet, "I have no idea where to find that!" or whatever then the whole thing becomes more interactive, even giving my character the chance to chip in ("Tell Bob that you can find them in Silverymoon!") Which I feel would enhance roleplay, rather than the 'flashing', 'flashing' which detracts from it.
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Also, I think that long-distance, and secret, tells may be a bit -too- powerful. An alternative suggestion that just came to me is the limiting of conversations to one-at-a-time? Sort of, you have to 'prime' the amulets to work with someone by being in the same room as them and both of you typing some sort of command and response-command - and then, you can only be open to recieving from one person at once?
Then the next time two people want a Fly spell, someone wants to know where some components are and another one wants an Identify spell the first person to make contact is the only person that can communicate with me via tells until there's an 'end call' sort of effect...and the others hear, "That person is already communicating with someone," or something like that?
Then the next time two people want a Fly spell, someone wants to know where some components are and another one wants an Identify spell the first person to make contact is the only person that can communicate with me via tells until there's an 'end call' sort of effect...and the others hear, "That person is already communicating with someone," or something like that?
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
My understanding was that the old style of amulets fed off the mana stat, which was calculated rather like endurance. That said I think it probably resembled our current system (ie. sapping end) more than the proposed system of charges. That is to say, mana was something which would recharge relatively quickly to the point that unless you were firing off a tell every few seconds it was pretty unusual to get into a position of being unable to use your amulet. I suppose I could be mistaken about this, but I'm pretty sure that's how it worked.
Isaldur, while it's nice enough to draw a line like 'Limited Amulets - > Coming together in the markets - > Dense population - > RP opportunities', especially since it's true, I think we can pretty much cut off the first step and not have any sort of a problem. I'd agree with you if there was a drought in people meeting at RP hubs but I haven't seen anything like that, personally. Maybe for evil folks, I don't really know how ZK works. I imagine if they have a problem, though, it's due to there just being less of them and I really don't see how this would affect that at all, except that occassionally they may not be able to properly coordinate things, which is only a slight con, but it sure doesn't help.
Just a little note about the whole cop out thing. It's not uncommon for player-run storylines to fizzle out because key players have gotten busy and aren't able to log in for more than half an hour or so. If the use of amulets (ie. to question a suspect, or what have you) can neatly resolve the situation and allow for things to move on, as opposed to letting them stagnate until interest is completely waned, I think that's a sacrifice worth making.
In terms of the intrusive nature of the amulets, honestly, well, there's a method to tune them out for just that reason, or, maybe characters could take IC measures to talk to their friends about the amulet issue, since use of the amulet at this point is an IC action that can certainly be responded to. At the risk of sounding callous, however, I don't think it's a great idea to implement a coded solution to a problem that only exists for a handful of people because they're just too polite for their own good.
Bit of a side note, I admit that the examples in my last post were sort of out there, but to correct myself, when I said 'quit' I meant 'log out'. I don't really think anyone would quit over something like this, and even though I was exaggerating, I wasn't trying to be quite *that* melodramatic
Isaldur, while it's nice enough to draw a line like 'Limited Amulets - > Coming together in the markets - > Dense population - > RP opportunities', especially since it's true, I think we can pretty much cut off the first step and not have any sort of a problem. I'd agree with you if there was a drought in people meeting at RP hubs but I haven't seen anything like that, personally. Maybe for evil folks, I don't really know how ZK works. I imagine if they have a problem, though, it's due to there just being less of them and I really don't see how this would affect that at all, except that occassionally they may not be able to properly coordinate things, which is only a slight con, but it sure doesn't help.
Just a little note about the whole cop out thing. It's not uncommon for player-run storylines to fizzle out because key players have gotten busy and aren't able to log in for more than half an hour or so. If the use of amulets (ie. to question a suspect, or what have you) can neatly resolve the situation and allow for things to move on, as opposed to letting them stagnate until interest is completely waned, I think that's a sacrifice worth making.
In terms of the intrusive nature of the amulets, honestly, well, there's a method to tune them out for just that reason, or, maybe characters could take IC measures to talk to their friends about the amulet issue, since use of the amulet at this point is an IC action that can certainly be responded to. At the risk of sounding callous, however, I don't think it's a great idea to implement a coded solution to a problem that only exists for a handful of people because they're just too polite for their own good.
Bit of a side note, I admit that the examples in my last post were sort of out there, but to correct myself, when I said 'quit' I meant 'log out'. I don't really think anyone would quit over something like this, and even though I was exaggerating, I wasn't trying to be quite *that* melodramatic
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
But it's not just a handful of people Enig. This topic has been discussed before to what it seems is no avail, and if I had access to the FK forums from before this website started up I could probably find "Amulet abuse" threads there as well. It's not a new problem, but it certainly seems to be getting far worse as time progresses.
I'm not trying to play Holy Champion of Grumbar here and demand nothing ever change, but I would like people to consider the intended and original use of amulets before they begin making claims that there is no problem. I admit myself to using amulets for things they were not meant, up to and including short conversations and asking for assistance.
This does not mean I support saying amulet use as they are treated now is acceptable simply because "everyone is doing it this way". I think taking a careful look at how they were intended to be used and then working from there to establish a model that is updated and reasonable is the best way to handle it. To do this we need everyone to pitch in productive suggestions, counter-suggestions, etc. So far most of the replies have done just that which is excellent because even if all we do is discuss and suggest, it will give those who actually make the decisions a wealth of opinion and information to draw from.
If there wasn't a problem then I wouldn't have found older threads talking about the exact misuses that Kelemvor brought up in this thread. It is a chronic issue that has yet to be resolved, but with our input perhaps it could be.
I'm not trying to play Holy Champion of Grumbar here and demand nothing ever change, but I would like people to consider the intended and original use of amulets before they begin making claims that there is no problem. I admit myself to using amulets for things they were not meant, up to and including short conversations and asking for assistance.
This does not mean I support saying amulet use as they are treated now is acceptable simply because "everyone is doing it this way". I think taking a careful look at how they were intended to be used and then working from there to establish a model that is updated and reasonable is the best way to handle it. To do this we need everyone to pitch in productive suggestions, counter-suggestions, etc. So far most of the replies have done just that which is excellent because even if all we do is discuss and suggest, it will give those who actually make the decisions a wealth of opinion and information to draw from.
If there wasn't a problem then I wouldn't have found older threads talking about the exact misuses that Kelemvor brought up in this thread. It is a chronic issue that has yet to be resolved, but with our input perhaps it could be.
A sapphire haired male aasimar replies to you 'What would you get Tanya for a wedding present?'
You reply to A sapphire haired male aasimar 'A swift kick to the head. '
You reply to A sapphire haired male aasimar 'A swift kick to the head. '
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Of all the ideas I've heard in this thread so far, the only one that's tolerable is making the tells broadcast to those around, AND introducing the whisper command together... Limiting the amounts of charges or otherwise limiting the ability to send tells will introduce more frustration than anything else... I can really see no good at all coming of that. Why make a game hard and frustrating? Especially if your character gets into trouble and can't call for help. Things can change from fine to 'in trouble' quickly enough.
I suppose there aren't any votes (but mine) to make amulets the way they were before, when they didn't give off an echo... Alas
I suppose there aren't any votes (but mine) to make amulets the way they were before, when they didn't give off an echo... Alas
Anastacia Syria, Truescar of Loviatar
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- Sword Grand Master
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- Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:28 pm
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Well, when I mentioned a handful of people I was talking specifically about those folks who are troubled by excessive amounts of tells from their friends but are just too polite to tell them to lay off a bit, or just detune.
Honestly, though, maybe I'm the one being the grumbarym here. My gut tells me that the amulets and the tell command are such an integral aspect to the game that removing them would be a hardship, but I suppose it's possible that I'm just too accustomed to having them around to be objective about it.
Your idea about how to go about analyzing the situation seems sound, so maybe we should start listing ways in which we use our amulets and sorting them out into categories like 'Essential', 'Generally good to have', and, 'Probably not a good idea', and we can see if what we end up in the 'Essentials' category matches up with how things are done now, and with any other ideas that might pop up. Anyways, here's my list! I'll number them, because I'm planning on using them in just a little bit.
- Essential Uses -
1) Coordinating meetings with people from across the MUD. This is a pretty big one, so I'll break it down a little.
* Helps hopefuls keep in touch with their FMs and other faith members
* Allows for the formation of groups quickly and neatly, for adventuring or corpse retrieval
* Lets people coordinate meetings outside of Waterdeep if one or more of them can't enter the city
* People generally use it to meet up with friends for less important reasons, too, like hot chocolate in a snowstorm, but that seems pretty important so I'm counting it as part of the essential category, too
2) Emergency assistance vs. mobs, traps, and other non-PC things, ie. "Help! A goblin skeleton wizard chewed off my leg before I killed him and now I'm trapped in his evil lair with his army of deadly mechanical gnome-crafted squirrel golems!". I include this in essentials partly because it promotes grouping (even if only after the poor fellow lost his leg to a feral goblin skeleton wizard, which ought to teach him for next time), and thus RP.
- 'Would be nice' uses -
3) Allows for at least some RP when a character wouldn't otherwise be able to RP. Using myself as an example, my character, because of his circumstances, rarely adventures, but he still needs to buy food to avoid starving to death so I occasionally send him up and down the road trading pipeweed or somesuch, alone. It's kind of tedious so I usually resort to amuleting people and striking up a conversation if anyone appropriate logs on while I'm still en route.
4) Questions, fact-checking, and etc., ie. "Hey, I'm an outcast living in the wilderness. What's the latest news in Waterdeep, anyways? Did the Waterdhavian Sahuagins win the big game against the Daggerford Devilfish?"
- 'Probably Actually Not Good Enough, Afraid', AKA Pangea, so let's make like the continent and split this category into its specifics!
5) Emergency assistance against PCs. Right now it's possible to send a quick tell out and have a pack of your friends teleport/fly in literally minutes after you're ambushed on the road. Technically this generates RP so it can't be completely bad, but it seems like sort of a hard luck thing for evils and other folks who'd be of a mind to waylay people and another tricky hoop for them to leap through while trying to ply their trade (ie. Evil!).
6) Chattering back and forth endlessly like gossipy folks on a severe sugar rush. A bit of chatter is well and good but when it gets to the point that people are seeing six or seven tells at one time (I've never gotten more than one or two at a time. Does this mean I'm not popular? ), well, that does seem like it's being used a bit too liberally in some quarters.
I think this about covers everything I can think of off hand. I've reached the point where I'll now try and cobble together the already-offered suggestions to fit the points I made above (which I'll refer to by number), sort of like a Frankensteinesque hodgepodge of ideas.
I think that the charge idea does a really good job of handling (6), the chattery chattersons, but it does create a problem wherein a player might need a tell here or there for one of the essential uses of the amulet and end up high and dry (even if it's through their own carelessness, it can impact other people, too).
Elenthis's idea of being able to go ahead and recharge your amulet at the post or somesuch would work for this. If a PC ends up in a situation where he needs to be able to reply to a tell he can make his way there quickly enough and buy back some charges. Combined with Isaldur's suggestion of giving the person doing the telling an 'Out of Service' message, I think that could work pretty well. Of course, we'd need some sort of neutral postal service where people could go who aren't fond of Waterdeep, or aren't allowed. Preferably a place where any race would be welcome, though I can't think of anywhere like that off the top of my head. Also, if the amulet is recharged too much in a short period of time the postal folks might charge more and more for the service, until the amulet cools down. Practically speaking, to prevent people from standing and gossiping in the mail room while constantly buying recharges the price could scale up higher and higher and not go back down until something like 12 or 24 hours have passed.
Anyways, (2) might still present a problem even with amulet recharging mobs! What happens if Joe the Fighter and Janamairalana the Cleric end up disarmed (literally) during a foray into a nasty den of monsters and need to call for help, but they're both out of tells? Why, expendable emergency tokens of course! They'd be tell-tokens you could buy for probably a pretty high price from the post, I'm thinking at least twice as much as a recharge. Careless folks could carry them around in their packs and if they end up being hit with a spot of bad luck they could pull them out and call for help. I think they should be limited to one or two per customer, though, at any given moment. Otherwise, because of the relative ease with which some people can accumulate money I think they'd be stockpiled, providing an essentially limitless amount of amulet charges and bringing us back to (6).
(3) and (4) seem like they could be handled by simply having players ration their tell charges. The charges themselves could be set up so that every few IC hours one charge is added back up if the amulet isn't already full.
(5) is kind of a sticky one. The best I can think of is to make it so the amulet doesn't always work. Two things that I've thought of to that effect. First off, I think it makes sense for amulets (and therefore tells) to not work in rooms where magic doesn't work. Any sort of dead magic zone would make tells impossible, and hey, on that subject, it'd probably be pretty funny if chaos magic areas caused the words to jumble up or the message to be sent to some random person instead of the intended target Besides that, though, maybe something could be introduced to disable another character's amulet, like a trap or a special crossbow that shoots out an enchanted spiderweb that wraps itself around the amulet and makes it inaccessible for six hours. Or perhaps something a little less super-villainish. Anyways, regardless of what form it would take, the point is that it would give PCs a chance to counteract their target's call for reinforcements if they take the time to properly plan ahead. Maybe some sort of spell could be used to disrupt an amulet, too, though it'd probably require a new spell, like disjunction or something, which I believe affects magical items. Actually, dispel magic might do that, too, though I'd have to check.
I'm afraid I might have rambled on a bit longer than I had intended, but hopefully there's at least something interesting or useful jumbled up in this mess! Of course this mostly-cribbed suggestion is based on where I've put my priorities with regards to amulet uses and I wouldn't be at all surprised if other people put them in somewhat of a different order. If there's one thing I whole-heartedly agree with Isaldur about it's that there aren't really any ideas that aren't worth mentioning or discussing. Even if they're slightly crazy or completely unfeasible, anything can spark a great idea, or can be shaped into one, etc., etc., etc. To that end, I'd be really interested in learning how other people use their amulets! I guess Isaldur's right about that, too; if we're going to try to modernize amulets, as it were, we ought to first decide as a whole what we want to get out of the process, how we want to be able to use them, and I guess that's the first step.
Anyhow, I'll stop talking now, or typing, rather, and step off the podium, as it were. Thanks for your patience, as this was a particularly lengthy chatter
Honestly, though, maybe I'm the one being the grumbarym here. My gut tells me that the amulets and the tell command are such an integral aspect to the game that removing them would be a hardship, but I suppose it's possible that I'm just too accustomed to having them around to be objective about it.
Your idea about how to go about analyzing the situation seems sound, so maybe we should start listing ways in which we use our amulets and sorting them out into categories like 'Essential', 'Generally good to have', and, 'Probably not a good idea', and we can see if what we end up in the 'Essentials' category matches up with how things are done now, and with any other ideas that might pop up. Anyways, here's my list! I'll number them, because I'm planning on using them in just a little bit.
- Essential Uses -
1) Coordinating meetings with people from across the MUD. This is a pretty big one, so I'll break it down a little.
* Helps hopefuls keep in touch with their FMs and other faith members
* Allows for the formation of groups quickly and neatly, for adventuring or corpse retrieval
* Lets people coordinate meetings outside of Waterdeep if one or more of them can't enter the city
* People generally use it to meet up with friends for less important reasons, too, like hot chocolate in a snowstorm, but that seems pretty important so I'm counting it as part of the essential category, too
2) Emergency assistance vs. mobs, traps, and other non-PC things, ie. "Help! A goblin skeleton wizard chewed off my leg before I killed him and now I'm trapped in his evil lair with his army of deadly mechanical gnome-crafted squirrel golems!". I include this in essentials partly because it promotes grouping (even if only after the poor fellow lost his leg to a feral goblin skeleton wizard, which ought to teach him for next time), and thus RP.
- 'Would be nice' uses -
3) Allows for at least some RP when a character wouldn't otherwise be able to RP. Using myself as an example, my character, because of his circumstances, rarely adventures, but he still needs to buy food to avoid starving to death so I occasionally send him up and down the road trading pipeweed or somesuch, alone. It's kind of tedious so I usually resort to amuleting people and striking up a conversation if anyone appropriate logs on while I'm still en route.
4) Questions, fact-checking, and etc., ie. "Hey, I'm an outcast living in the wilderness. What's the latest news in Waterdeep, anyways? Did the Waterdhavian Sahuagins win the big game against the Daggerford Devilfish?"
- 'Probably Actually Not Good Enough, Afraid', AKA Pangea, so let's make like the continent and split this category into its specifics!
5) Emergency assistance against PCs. Right now it's possible to send a quick tell out and have a pack of your friends teleport/fly in literally minutes after you're ambushed on the road. Technically this generates RP so it can't be completely bad, but it seems like sort of a hard luck thing for evils and other folks who'd be of a mind to waylay people and another tricky hoop for them to leap through while trying to ply their trade (ie. Evil!).
6) Chattering back and forth endlessly like gossipy folks on a severe sugar rush. A bit of chatter is well and good but when it gets to the point that people are seeing six or seven tells at one time (I've never gotten more than one or two at a time. Does this mean I'm not popular? ), well, that does seem like it's being used a bit too liberally in some quarters.
I think this about covers everything I can think of off hand. I've reached the point where I'll now try and cobble together the already-offered suggestions to fit the points I made above (which I'll refer to by number), sort of like a Frankensteinesque hodgepodge of ideas.
I think that the charge idea does a really good job of handling (6), the chattery chattersons, but it does create a problem wherein a player might need a tell here or there for one of the essential uses of the amulet and end up high and dry (even if it's through their own carelessness, it can impact other people, too).
Elenthis's idea of being able to go ahead and recharge your amulet at the post or somesuch would work for this. If a PC ends up in a situation where he needs to be able to reply to a tell he can make his way there quickly enough and buy back some charges. Combined with Isaldur's suggestion of giving the person doing the telling an 'Out of Service' message, I think that could work pretty well. Of course, we'd need some sort of neutral postal service where people could go who aren't fond of Waterdeep, or aren't allowed. Preferably a place where any race would be welcome, though I can't think of anywhere like that off the top of my head. Also, if the amulet is recharged too much in a short period of time the postal folks might charge more and more for the service, until the amulet cools down. Practically speaking, to prevent people from standing and gossiping in the mail room while constantly buying recharges the price could scale up higher and higher and not go back down until something like 12 or 24 hours have passed.
Anyways, (2) might still present a problem even with amulet recharging mobs! What happens if Joe the Fighter and Janamairalana the Cleric end up disarmed (literally) during a foray into a nasty den of monsters and need to call for help, but they're both out of tells? Why, expendable emergency tokens of course! They'd be tell-tokens you could buy for probably a pretty high price from the post, I'm thinking at least twice as much as a recharge. Careless folks could carry them around in their packs and if they end up being hit with a spot of bad luck they could pull them out and call for help. I think they should be limited to one or two per customer, though, at any given moment. Otherwise, because of the relative ease with which some people can accumulate money I think they'd be stockpiled, providing an essentially limitless amount of amulet charges and bringing us back to (6).
(3) and (4) seem like they could be handled by simply having players ration their tell charges. The charges themselves could be set up so that every few IC hours one charge is added back up if the amulet isn't already full.
(5) is kind of a sticky one. The best I can think of is to make it so the amulet doesn't always work. Two things that I've thought of to that effect. First off, I think it makes sense for amulets (and therefore tells) to not work in rooms where magic doesn't work. Any sort of dead magic zone would make tells impossible, and hey, on that subject, it'd probably be pretty funny if chaos magic areas caused the words to jumble up or the message to be sent to some random person instead of the intended target Besides that, though, maybe something could be introduced to disable another character's amulet, like a trap or a special crossbow that shoots out an enchanted spiderweb that wraps itself around the amulet and makes it inaccessible for six hours. Or perhaps something a little less super-villainish. Anyways, regardless of what form it would take, the point is that it would give PCs a chance to counteract their target's call for reinforcements if they take the time to properly plan ahead. Maybe some sort of spell could be used to disrupt an amulet, too, though it'd probably require a new spell, like disjunction or something, which I believe affects magical items. Actually, dispel magic might do that, too, though I'd have to check.
I'm afraid I might have rambled on a bit longer than I had intended, but hopefully there's at least something interesting or useful jumbled up in this mess! Of course this mostly-cribbed suggestion is based on where I've put my priorities with regards to amulet uses and I wouldn't be at all surprised if other people put them in somewhat of a different order. If there's one thing I whole-heartedly agree with Isaldur about it's that there aren't really any ideas that aren't worth mentioning or discussing. Even if they're slightly crazy or completely unfeasible, anything can spark a great idea, or can be shaped into one, etc., etc., etc. To that end, I'd be really interested in learning how other people use their amulets! I guess Isaldur's right about that, too; if we're going to try to modernize amulets, as it were, we ought to first decide as a whole what we want to get out of the process, how we want to be able to use them, and I guess that's the first step.
Anyhow, I'll stop talking now, or typing, rather, and step off the podium, as it were. Thanks for your patience, as this was a particularly lengthy chatter
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Callous! Callous! *points finger*At the risk of sounding callous, however, I don't think it's a great idea to implement a coded solution to a problem that only exists for a handful of people because they're just too polite for their own good.
Seriously though, it's not just about politeness. Detuning just doesn't work because you can't a) Hear the messages that might actually be important, and b) Wail for help yourself, not to mention c) everyone then panics because the darn thing is off.
And telling people 'please cut down on the random tells' doesn't work when, for example, some of those characters are people you have never met before..
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Yay!Of all the ideas I've heard in this thread so far, the only one that's tolerable is making the tells broadcast to those around, AND introducing the whisper command together...
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Very well put, and I'd say it's a good general rule not to make things frustrating or more difficult to facilitate RP! I would add that the "frustration" always seems to fall hardest on the newer players. I've been around as long as most and have seen many changes to alleviate "annoyances" or some perceived abuse. IMO, many seem to just make things harder for the players/PCs who have less resources and weren't skating rules...and the problem players just go and find new ways to make trouble.Melusine wrote:Limiting the amounts of charges or otherwise limiting the ability to send tells will introduce more frustration than anything else... I can really see no good at all coming of that. Why make a game hard and frustrating?
My vote as well.I suppose there aren't any votes (but mine) to make amulets the way they were before, when they didn't give off an echo... Alas
*runs off to find new ways to cause trouble*
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Adding charges would make tells more a more appreciated commodity: it would reduce - well, cap - the number of tells fired off. However, a more targeted fix could go after people having long conversations, specifically. Amulets could begin to fail when used to communicate with the same target too many times in a given time window. So after the tenth tell to the same target in, say, 20 minutes, you could have a 10%, then 20%, then 30%, etc chance of getting the message "Your amulet is growing warm, and your message does not cause it to light." Or something like that.
Even more targeted, give Imms or others in a position to be bothered an affect they can throw at those offending their sensibilities, of the same nature: It lasts with some duration, and causes your amulet to get hot, perhaps even causing damage if you continue trying to use it a lot. Maybe it only works 50% of the time, as well. Some echo along the lines of "Your amulet is becoming uncomfortably hot! It was not made for carrying on long-distance conversations!" This would have no impact on the dead, I think, who might need to have conversations (about where their corpse is!).
I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of any of the above, and will suggest a third fix: the ability for a player/Imm to detune a specific PC/account. Then the consequence of yapping too much is that Kelemvor and other Imms will add you to their nyetlists and won't overhear your predicament/RP opportunity by amulet...but you won't bug them ever again.
Even more targeted, give Imms or others in a position to be bothered an affect they can throw at those offending their sensibilities, of the same nature: It lasts with some duration, and causes your amulet to get hot, perhaps even causing damage if you continue trying to use it a lot. Maybe it only works 50% of the time, as well. Some echo along the lines of "Your amulet is becoming uncomfortably hot! It was not made for carrying on long-distance conversations!" This would have no impact on the dead, I think, who might need to have conversations (about where their corpse is!).
I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of any of the above, and will suggest a third fix: the ability for a player/Imm to detune a specific PC/account. Then the consequence of yapping too much is that Kelemvor and other Imms will add you to their nyetlists and won't overhear your predicament/RP opportunity by amulet...but you won't bug them ever again.
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
That's all good and nice for our sake, but the immortals are still being spammed upstairs with absolutely useless talk. The point is, amulets are not cell phones.I suppose there aren't any votes (but mine) to make amulets the way they were before, when they didn't give off an echo... Alas :wink:
My vote as well. 8)
I'm assuming this here, so don't quote me. I do believe making the amulets flash to begin with was in hopes to stop the random inappropriate cell phone like usage of the amulet. Obviously that didn't work out so well.
As Aveline said, the 5/5 was just throwing a number up. I actually thing 10 would be more appropriate.
Frankly the best thing would be if people just stopped using them like phones, that's my vote.
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
I think that the amulet change is a bad idea all the way around. From a realistic standpoint, this is not the real world, its a game played by people from all over the world that log in at different times. The point is to have fun and find people to have fun with. The amulets make that possible. The more we try to emulate the real world, the less fun its going to get. Not being able to communicate via the amulet is only going to force everyone to start doing it with messengers anyway. Then, you are going to see a real decline in roleplay since people will be talking on the messenger but acting on the mud. You can see it happening now in fact, but not to a great extent. You know, when you see two people together nodding or laughing to each other but nothing was said in game.. or when they travel around and do things together without talking at all. Communication is needed to have fun here, in game or out. I would prefer to keep it in game.
We already have issues with finding faith managers, getting a group of people to get your corpse etc... imagine how hard it will be if the amulets have a charge restriction or whatever. If there were a whisper command in the game, I think a significant amount of amulet talk will decrease, or at least more decent roleplay talk can be singled out by the IMMs. I personally try to take advantage of the different languages to try to have private conversations with people in public places. Even then, people complain that they dont like it when others speak to each other and they dont understand the conversation. Then they complain when they see amulets being used. Well, such is life, and I never really had any sympathy for those complaints, especially the language ones. Theoretically, the market square is big enough to be able to have a private conversation in the corner somewhere without everyone else over hearing it. To me, the whisper command makes sense on a lot of levels here.
We already have issues with finding faith managers, getting a group of people to get your corpse etc... imagine how hard it will be if the amulets have a charge restriction or whatever. If there were a whisper command in the game, I think a significant amount of amulet talk will decrease, or at least more decent roleplay talk can be singled out by the IMMs. I personally try to take advantage of the different languages to try to have private conversations with people in public places. Even then, people complain that they dont like it when others speak to each other and they dont understand the conversation. Then they complain when they see amulets being used. Well, such is life, and I never really had any sympathy for those complaints, especially the language ones. Theoretically, the market square is big enough to be able to have a private conversation in the corner somewhere without everyone else over hearing it. To me, the whisper command makes sense on a lot of levels here.
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Seek ye defeat? Ye shall most certainly find it.
Seek ye nothing? Then all ye can find is victory.
Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Perhaps that could be made an official policy and given a mention in the newbie training temple. Then imms could send warnings to those seen to be "abusing" the amulet (eg with echoes as proposed above, or with straight out otells going "oi!") with the possibility of a more severe punishment if ignored.Mele wrote:Frankly the best thing would be if people just stopped using them like phones, that's my vote.
As far as I remember, there isn't much guidance given on amulet usage in the training temple beyond "this is a powerful artefact." Perhaps it would cut down on imm-spammage if there was a generally-agreed "usage policy" that was spelled out for all new players - It's OK to use the amulet to ask for help, to arrange meetings with players for RP reasons such as a faith gathering or adventuring party or to ask advice on where to find something/someone. It's not OK to use it for casual conversation and if the imms observe this happening excessively you may suffer dire consequences... Dun dun dun.
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
I significantly agree with Peverell's idea.
In addition to the explaination in the newbie temple, maybe we could add to the helpfile of amulets of communication? Something saying such as Peverell described..
In addition to the explaination in the newbie temple, maybe we could add to the helpfile of amulets of communication? Something saying such as Peverell described..
It's OK to use the amulet to ask for help, to arrange meetings with players for RP reasons such as a faith gathering or adventuring party or to ask advice on where to find something/someone. It's not OK to use it for casual conversation and if the imms observe this happening excessively you may suffer dire consequences... Dun dun dun.
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
Mele wrote:That's all good and nice for our sake, but the immortals are still being spammed upstairs with absolutely useless talk. The point is, amulets are not cell phones.I suppose there aren't any votes (but mine) to make amulets the way they were before, when they didn't give off an echo... Alas
My vote as well.
I know... My wishes don't have to be realistic.
With mention of putting something into the lessons of the newbie temple and all... I like that idea. People have commented frequently on here about amulet 'abuse' but nowhere in the rules does it have anything against even lengthy conversations via amulet that I've seen. It would significantly help if it were at least written out in plain text within the game itself, rather than various topics across the forums about it. Like the helpfiles, mentioned above... I really do like that idea, to help avoid spamming the Imms to death. If we had an actual straight-forward policy that's easily referenced in the game, there may not even be reason for a code change... Or so I would hope. *crosses fingers*
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Re: The Mobile 'Phone Menace!
I know that since this topic was brought up, I've been watching my tells and how often I use one, the content of them, and the necessity. I know that the IMMs probably don't have the time to police the amulet usage of the populace, but I like how it is now, personally, just maybe the occasional reminder that "Hey, this isn't meant to be like a phone. Get to the point or get off the line."
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A shark is stunned, but will probably recover.
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