I honestly can't see any good in these changes... It isn't balancing, and it isn't right. It makes no logical sense, and fly -shouldn't- be a rare and wondrous spell... As pointed out above, its a third level spell. Its disenheartening to see skills and spells crippled one after another, like this. From what I can see its upsetting to the playerbase, including me. I would be ok with it if it were a -reasonable- change, but it isn't. The change is taking half the meaning out of the spell...
Could we get an official answer about the reasons why the change was made? All I've seen so far in this thread are speculation.
At least make flying mounts unable to be attacked, because there's NO WAY a bandit would jump up into the air to attack someone riding. And no physical way something that big could fly so close to the ground without crashing. Not cool guys... not cool.
Flight - recent changes
Re: Flight - recent changes
Anastacia Syria, Truescar of Loviatar
Re: Flight - recent changes
What you've read isn't speculation.
Flight was toned down due to repeat abuse of the spell, despite frequent warnings about it. To be precise:
+ Initiating combat while flying only brought you into combat with the mob you targetted (despite what people have implied here). Its allies would stand idly by, and could not attack back (though the targetted mob could).
+ Use of fly meant that entire parties could fly over packs of dangerous mobs who would otherwise have been able to respond (ie. giants in Hartsvale, who would have thrown rocks etc).
Abuse of the above points has been repeatedly witnessed by immortal and player staff by a good number of players.
Drawing from original pen and paper use of the fly spell, it's a widely known fact in the GMing world that it could used to incredibly destructive ends. A targetted mob wouldn't fight back most of the time, allowing for a single wizard to rain down fiery death on a great number of NPCs. To counter this, the GM would often do something, such as calling in a brigade of assistants with ballistae and wizards to fight back. Obviously we can't achieve this in FK, so simpler measures need to be employed!
To simply prevent future abuse is a much easier fix than completely recoding the spell to allow for all kinds of different factors, so that's precisely what was done. Flight has become a quick-travel spell with no scouting application - a function that can be achieved by other classes or the use of different spells.
As Mask has said earlier in the thread, we will look at the more practical use of the spell in the future. We understand that you aren't happy with the changes made to the fly spell, however we would ask you to keep all comments constructive and positive from this point on. As much as I hate to use the term, all coders work for the MUD voluntarily, and polite remarks will yield far more positive results than brusque complaints.
Flight was toned down due to repeat abuse of the spell, despite frequent warnings about it. To be precise:
+ Initiating combat while flying only brought you into combat with the mob you targetted (despite what people have implied here). Its allies would stand idly by, and could not attack back (though the targetted mob could).
+ Use of fly meant that entire parties could fly over packs of dangerous mobs who would otherwise have been able to respond (ie. giants in Hartsvale, who would have thrown rocks etc).
Abuse of the above points has been repeatedly witnessed by immortal and player staff by a good number of players.
Drawing from original pen and paper use of the fly spell, it's a widely known fact in the GMing world that it could used to incredibly destructive ends. A targetted mob wouldn't fight back most of the time, allowing for a single wizard to rain down fiery death on a great number of NPCs. To counter this, the GM would often do something, such as calling in a brigade of assistants with ballistae and wizards to fight back. Obviously we can't achieve this in FK, so simpler measures need to be employed!
To simply prevent future abuse is a much easier fix than completely recoding the spell to allow for all kinds of different factors, so that's precisely what was done. Flight has become a quick-travel spell with no scouting application - a function that can be achieved by other classes or the use of different spells.
As Mask has said earlier in the thread, we will look at the more practical use of the spell in the future. We understand that you aren't happy with the changes made to the fly spell, however we would ask you to keep all comments constructive and positive from this point on. As much as I hate to use the term, all coders work for the MUD voluntarily, and polite remarks will yield far more positive results than brusque complaints.
"This is General Lath'lain Dy'nesir, of the Ebon Spur. Walking Murder surrounded by a thin veneer of civility."
-Miriel
-Miriel
Re: Flight - recent changes
I must agree with Lathlain here; there isn't anything epic in finishing quest areas in three minutes because you are able to fly past the enemies that otherwise would attack you, in that aspect I see the change as a good thing.
If anything I would switch fly to the old behaviour in the wilderness map, since the damage that can be done there by abuse is minimal in comparation with the damage that can bring this spell in areas.
If anything I would switch fly to the old behaviour in the wilderness map, since the damage that can be done there by abuse is minimal in comparation with the damage that can bring this spell in areas.
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Raona
- Staff
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- Location: Waterdeep - Halls of Justice
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Re: Flight - recent changes
With respect to the expressed and hopefully sincere concern for the fate of young wizards: this change is part of a significant suite of changes to the game, some of which make things easier for young PCs. The game mechanics and difficulty are constantly being tweaked in response to observations and comments, and they will continue to be in the future. If young wizards are indeed doomed, trust that they will un-doomed. But changes would not be made to intentionally bring that about, and without considering the entirety of the changes made, it is premature to assess whether or not a single one of them has made the game become unbalanced.
In a separate vein, I would urge everyone to make a sincere effort first to adapt to the changes. If they prove to be an insurmountable challenge over time, yes, by all means, say so. But illustrative comments on the basis of such experience (which include some, but not all, of the above) will be far more compelling.
For my part, I'm still taking measure of what the flight changes mean, as well as all the others made in the game. Some aspects of "new flight" are clearly problematic, such as snakes attacking flying mounts; however, other (less obvious) changes require more urgent adjustment, and our coder's time is limited. Efforts are being made to address these needs with rational thought as to their urgency. For example, the "drowning while flying" issue was seen as extremely high priority, and was fixed as fast as possible. Thank you to those who brought that to light.
In a separate vein, I would urge everyone to make a sincere effort first to adapt to the changes. If they prove to be an insurmountable challenge over time, yes, by all means, say so. But illustrative comments on the basis of such experience (which include some, but not all, of the above) will be far more compelling.
For my part, I'm still taking measure of what the flight changes mean, as well as all the others made in the game. Some aspects of "new flight" are clearly problematic, such as snakes attacking flying mounts; however, other (less obvious) changes require more urgent adjustment, and our coder's time is limited. Efforts are being made to address these needs with rational thought as to their urgency. For example, the "drowning while flying" issue was seen as extremely high priority, and was fixed as fast as possible. Thank you to those who brought that to light.
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Balek
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:54 pm
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Re: Flight - recent changes
Instead of just complaining about how this fix ruins everyone's day, let's try to figure out how to fix the spell. The problem with the spell as it was coded is that it far outstrips the capabilities that the flight spell should have - to the point of being game breaking. It allowed anyone with flight spells to selectively engage targets one at a time. It also went far beyond its PnP purpose by lasting for hours and allowing people to fly from one end of the world to the other in almost no time for the cost of a single 3rd level spell.
So how can we fix this? First, let's reduce the duration of flight quite drastically. The spell is intended to be used as a single fight spell or maybe for a quick scouting mission. In PnP the top end duration for standard level characters is 20 minutes (for a level 20 caster). Let's make the duration on FK 1 minute. That's enough time to engage in a single fight or do a very fast scouting mission over Hartsvale. If you use extend spell it will last for a whole 2 minutes. This seems reasonable to me. If we find that this is still too powerful, we can consider upping the spell level to compensate for the power of the spell.
We might also need to consider toning down the speed of flight. 1 minute of flight time would still get you pretty far in the world map, and that's something that's really far beyond the scope of the original spell.
So how can we fix this? First, let's reduce the duration of flight quite drastically. The spell is intended to be used as a single fight spell or maybe for a quick scouting mission. In PnP the top end duration for standard level characters is 20 minutes (for a level 20 caster). Let's make the duration on FK 1 minute. That's enough time to engage in a single fight or do a very fast scouting mission over Hartsvale. If you use extend spell it will last for a whole 2 minutes. This seems reasonable to me. If we find that this is still too powerful, we can consider upping the spell level to compensate for the power of the spell.
We might also need to consider toning down the speed of flight. 1 minute of flight time would still get you pretty far in the world map, and that's something that's really far beyond the scope of the original spell.
Re: Flight - recent changes
Thankyou Lathlain for giving the reasons for the change. I can now understand why there is a desire to tone down the abilities given by flight however i think in this case the pendelum has swung too far the other way.
Possible soloution
Can we make flight work differently on the overland as opposed to in an area ? From the posts i have seen the biggest problem with the misuse of flight is in razing areas such as hartsvale. And the biggest problem with not having flight is in overland travel, being jumped ( in some cases a very high jump) by annoying wandering creatures or bandits.
I would certainly be a lot happier with this than the current soloution.
To also cover Balek's point, this change not only affects the fly spell it also effects any other means of flight including a flying mount. And i do not think that Iimiting the duration will stop a mage misusing the spell, it will just mean he will have to memorise more flight spells to do it.
Ryldaen
Possible soloution
Can we make flight work differently on the overland as opposed to in an area ? From the posts i have seen the biggest problem with the misuse of flight is in razing areas such as hartsvale. And the biggest problem with not having flight is in overland travel, being jumped ( in some cases a very high jump) by annoying wandering creatures or bandits.
I would certainly be a lot happier with this than the current soloution.
To also cover Balek's point, this change not only affects the fly spell it also effects any other means of flight including a flying mount. And i do not think that Iimiting the duration will stop a mage misusing the spell, it will just mean he will have to memorise more flight spells to do it.
Ryldaen
Re: Flight - recent changes
I think I would like to add a few things again at this time.
First, I hear what people are saying about using flight to selectively attack just one mob out of a group but I honestly don't think that has ever happened to me. As far as I can remember, I have always been engaged in combat by mobs that I didn't target from flight. Attacking giants from flight, and then another giant walks in, and I found myself fighting two giants now as the other one joined in. I even used to look in every direction before starting combat to make sure if it was a hard fight, that nothing else was going to walk in on me. Now maybe my memory is failing me..?!? I can't test it now so I cant say with proof positiveness but I clearly remember one instance where I was with someone who was flying as I was, and we attacked a giant, and a ram walked in and joined the fight, the other person nearly died from it. But putting that aside....
I would like to add a few of my suggestions if they are being taken?
Currently, I don't know what the major differences are between the different flight spells but perhaps we can explore that since it appears a good time to do so and the spells are already coded in so modification probably wouldn't be that tedious.
1) The current fly spell strikes me as how levitate should work. Does anyone even use levitate? I have never seen it used. Perhaps make this spell fast, faster than fly (like running above the ground) with a long duration to encourage use. And add a few more trainers.
2) Fly: as it is now it is, in my opinion RP broke, but.. would it be hard to code it so that combat is just impossible in flight, You are too high. You can use your amulet, and use "say" and you can "land" and "take off" again. that's it. The spell just dies off completely when combat is started ( due to concentration required to maintain it...) and you will just have to recast fly after combat is finished. Wont that fix a lot of the concern right there? Short duration to encourage use of levitate. Also, how about limited the spell to the caster only. But not levitate.
3) Etheral Flyer: Fast but in order to do anything, you need to land and dismount it. Like a mounted pet that cannot fight. If combat starts you FALL OFF it and take hard damage. No saddles on those things I assume, and nothing to really grab onto. Perhaps it can allow more than one person to mount/enter it? I imagine it like a floating disc that you can enter and steer it.
4) Air Walk: Fastest speed, BUT.. you are misty and can do nothing, not use the amulet, not talk, not fight, not cast, nothing until canceled.
5) Mounted combat: Like my Fly suggest, you will automatically land if you start a fight or get pulled into one. Or, go crazy and make mounted combat a tad special. Perhaps allow air to air combat with other flyers without being forced to land.. I guess like old fly, but if you fight a non flyer, you auto land.
If flight is being tweaked, why not tweak it all the way. I don't think there was a lot of reason to choose your method of travel before because there was a lack of differentiation with the flight modes. I have no idea if D&D actually differentiated them in a way I did but I like the variety and the spells were there but not really there if you know what I mean.
First, I hear what people are saying about using flight to selectively attack just one mob out of a group but I honestly don't think that has ever happened to me. As far as I can remember, I have always been engaged in combat by mobs that I didn't target from flight. Attacking giants from flight, and then another giant walks in, and I found myself fighting two giants now as the other one joined in. I even used to look in every direction before starting combat to make sure if it was a hard fight, that nothing else was going to walk in on me. Now maybe my memory is failing me..?!? I can't test it now so I cant say with proof positiveness but I clearly remember one instance where I was with someone who was flying as I was, and we attacked a giant, and a ram walked in and joined the fight, the other person nearly died from it. But putting that aside....
I would like to add a few of my suggestions if they are being taken?
Currently, I don't know what the major differences are between the different flight spells but perhaps we can explore that since it appears a good time to do so and the spells are already coded in so modification probably wouldn't be that tedious.
1) The current fly spell strikes me as how levitate should work. Does anyone even use levitate? I have never seen it used. Perhaps make this spell fast, faster than fly (like running above the ground) with a long duration to encourage use. And add a few more trainers.
2) Fly: as it is now it is, in my opinion RP broke, but.. would it be hard to code it so that combat is just impossible in flight, You are too high. You can use your amulet, and use "say" and you can "land" and "take off" again. that's it. The spell just dies off completely when combat is started ( due to concentration required to maintain it...) and you will just have to recast fly after combat is finished. Wont that fix a lot of the concern right there? Short duration to encourage use of levitate. Also, how about limited the spell to the caster only. But not levitate.
3) Etheral Flyer: Fast but in order to do anything, you need to land and dismount it. Like a mounted pet that cannot fight. If combat starts you FALL OFF it and take hard damage. No saddles on those things I assume, and nothing to really grab onto. Perhaps it can allow more than one person to mount/enter it? I imagine it like a floating disc that you can enter and steer it.
4) Air Walk: Fastest speed, BUT.. you are misty and can do nothing, not use the amulet, not talk, not fight, not cast, nothing until canceled.
5) Mounted combat: Like my Fly suggest, you will automatically land if you start a fight or get pulled into one. Or, go crazy and make mounted combat a tad special. Perhaps allow air to air combat with other flyers without being forced to land.. I guess like old fly, but if you fight a non flyer, you auto land.
If flight is being tweaked, why not tweak it all the way. I don't think there was a lot of reason to choose your method of travel before because there was a lack of differentiation with the flight modes. I have no idea if D&D actually differentiated them in a way I did but I like the variety and the spells were there but not really there if you know what I mean.
Seek ye victory? Ye shall eventually find defeat.
Seek ye defeat? Ye shall most certainly find it.
Seek ye nothing? Then all ye can find is victory.
Seek ye defeat? Ye shall most certainly find it.
Seek ye nothing? Then all ye can find is victory.
Re: Flight - recent changes
Thank you, Lathlain. It honestly wasn't laid out like that here. From a player's perspective, we don't know who knows what. I was only looking at what Imms have said, and not those labeled 'Staff'. Also, I like the handy-dandy bullet points.
Although now I have to ask... how have players been warned? In what context? Individually? I don't think I've seen anything on this before, or in the other situations where changes are proposed due to 'abuse' of something. I went and tried to search 'fly abuse' and didn't see anything here on the forums, unless it was in the old ones... I guess what I'd like is for there to be more of everyone being on the same page. I know that's already difficult with there being so many of us, but posts on the forums warning about or laying out new changes and why would be constructive. There's the thread that shows code updates/changes, but nothing was given as to why the change. I know personally I appreciate the whys of things.
Maybe this was the quick fix, though I don't think it works... Perhaps over time Fly could be fixed so that it works properly? (I know such has been stated)
Initiating combat while flying only brought you into combat with the mob you targetted (despite what people have implied here). Its allies would stand idly by, and could not attack back (though the targetted mob could).
Change it so that initiating combat makes you 'land' since we have that command now. Which was an awesome addition.
+ Use of fly meant that entire parties could fly over packs of dangerous mobs who would otherwise have been able to respond (ie. giants in Hartsvale, who would have thrown rocks etc).
Let those with ranged weapons still be able to attack those who fly, even if they're on the ground. And those who don't, can't.
My other concern is flying mounts. Right now those riding are getting attacked too... With those two changes above though, it would take the impossibility out of it.
Others have suggested a lower amount of time for fly to work... Personally I don't think that'd work very well due to the distance of some places requiring flight to get to, such as some of our fine islands. There has to be ways to get to these places, especially as one of them that I'm thinking of is a guild.
Although now I have to ask... how have players been warned? In what context? Individually? I don't think I've seen anything on this before, or in the other situations where changes are proposed due to 'abuse' of something. I went and tried to search 'fly abuse' and didn't see anything here on the forums, unless it was in the old ones... I guess what I'd like is for there to be more of everyone being on the same page. I know that's already difficult with there being so many of us, but posts on the forums warning about or laying out new changes and why would be constructive. There's the thread that shows code updates/changes, but nothing was given as to why the change. I know personally I appreciate the whys of things.
Maybe this was the quick fix, though I don't think it works... Perhaps over time Fly could be fixed so that it works properly? (I know such has been stated)
Initiating combat while flying only brought you into combat with the mob you targetted (despite what people have implied here). Its allies would stand idly by, and could not attack back (though the targetted mob could).
Change it so that initiating combat makes you 'land' since we have that command now. Which was an awesome addition.
+ Use of fly meant that entire parties could fly over packs of dangerous mobs who would otherwise have been able to respond (ie. giants in Hartsvale, who would have thrown rocks etc).
Let those with ranged weapons still be able to attack those who fly, even if they're on the ground. And those who don't, can't.
My other concern is flying mounts. Right now those riding are getting attacked too... With those two changes above though, it would take the impossibility out of it.
Others have suggested a lower amount of time for fly to work... Personally I don't think that'd work very well due to the distance of some places requiring flight to get to, such as some of our fine islands. There has to be ways to get to these places, especially as one of them that I'm thinking of is a guild.
Anastacia Syria, Truescar of Loviatar
Re: Flight - recent changes
land when combat is iniatiated
do not allow launch or whatever the fly command is while in combat
scale duration to be 20 RL minutes for gm level
pc's flying over mobs isn't only not a problem, but also the best use of the spell
do not allow launch or whatever the fly command is while in combat
scale duration to be 20 RL minutes for gm level
pc's flying over mobs isn't only not a problem, but also the best use of the spell
Re: Flight - recent changes
WordKallias wrote:land when combat is iniatiated
do not allow launch or whatever the fly command is while in combat
scale duration to be 20 RL minutes for gm level
pc's flying over mobs isn't only not a problem, but also the best use of the spell
Anastacia Syria, Truescar of Loviatar
Re: Flight - recent changes
I'll keep most of my opinions on this to myself I think. >.>
I'm curious, however, about the duration change. I can understand Fly getting cut down to size. With a duration of one minute per level in D&D, that'd make the duration no greater than one minute and fourty seconds in real time (20 minutes FK time). It was easily lasting me a real life hour (12 hours FK time) before, which was really too much.
I'm wondering about the other flight spells, though. I make regular use of Wind Walk, and I'm noticing that it barely lasts the flight from Daggerford to the middle of Waterdeep. Wind Walk normally has a duration of one hour per level, meaning it'd last sixty times as long as Fly, which I'm pretty sure isn't happening.
Did Wind Walk get knocked down several pegs as well? If I'm just imagining things, I'll be quiet.
I'm curious, however, about the duration change. I can understand Fly getting cut down to size. With a duration of one minute per level in D&D, that'd make the duration no greater than one minute and fourty seconds in real time (20 minutes FK time). It was easily lasting me a real life hour (12 hours FK time) before, which was really too much.
I'm wondering about the other flight spells, though. I make regular use of Wind Walk, and I'm noticing that it barely lasts the flight from Daggerford to the middle of Waterdeep. Wind Walk normally has a duration of one hour per level, meaning it'd last sixty times as long as Fly, which I'm pretty sure isn't happening.
Did Wind Walk get knocked down several pegs as well? If I'm just imagining things, I'll be quiet.
"Every time I almost die
______I feel so alive.
Why would I ever want
____to be more careful?"
______I feel so alive.
Why would I ever want
____to be more careful?"