Books... why so expensive?

[Isolrem]

I never did understand why even the cheapest books in the game are 4 platinums. Isn't reading encouraged in this game? ICly, it makes no sense for a book to cost what is the equivalent of one year or several years' salary for a commoner. OOCly it makes even less sense. My characters, at least, are unwilling to spend a large sum of money for just casual reading. But isn't learning more about the realms perfect for better roleplaying? And don't the players who write these books want their works read by as many people as possible? If books were lowered to the cost of 1 platinum I might start buying each one I see and read them in my spare time (also gives me something to do while regenerating hp/stamina), but even if the cost was lowered to 5 coppers per book, I see only an improvement for the game.

[Gwain]

The following is not to justify the pricing of books in the game, but to add a real world perspective to pricing.

Books are traditionally expensive enterprises. Before the modern printing press most books were scribed by hand and took many months to publish. With the printing press, it was easier to print, but still an expensive venture to produce heavy books and tomes. Aldus Manutius printed the first 'pocket books' or novels in the 1500's and even then the tiny books were considered only for nobles that could afford them. The traditional printing press company has to compensate on several levels, the materials, the printing process, the author and the amount of money they could earn to offset the loss of production.

When I look at a book in Fk, I think about the time and effort put into creating a book, the chapters and information, I then look at the payment that is given to the bards and scribes and then the distribution. Books in themselves are not commodity items, there are on average ten swords bought for every one book sold. Players will mostly buy them to gain essential information or as a tribute to the writer. I think that the low volume of purchases augments a higher price for books. Also, I take into account the size of the book, the length and the information inside. Some books that are relatively short actually sell for a few gold coins, while others sell for a few platinum if they are thick.

The balance is favorable to the importance we put in published material, itself a huge and unique part of the mud. What we don't have is a system of libraries or lending to view and then return books (Though there are and have been character run libraries) It could be the lack of those that adds to the general notice of the high cost of books. I would not be opposed to someone making some sort of library as a dedicated building project.

[Isolrem]

what? printing books is by no means unique to this MUD, except in other MUDs the books are very affordable, or available free on the noteboards, or spawning for grabs in bookshelves throughout the game. The result? what you write actually gets read.

Yes, I understand that books are expensive, but if you want to put things in perspective, then what is 4 platinums? 100 gold is a small fortune, 1000 gold = 200 platinums is the entire wealth of a respectable nobleman. Is he going to spend a sizeable portion of that to buy one book? longswords also cost 3-5 platinums in the game, and it is also something which could only be afforded by the wealthy in the days of yore. The difference is a patrician needs only a few swords for himself and his personal guards, but he is stashing thousands of tomes in his library. What did not use to exist were things like public libraries. Maybe there were some chapels which stored many books and scrolls, and would lend it to friendly scholars. But in any case, a fairly common trend I notice in the MUD is to propose adding new (and very complicated things) instead of addressing any problem directly, which leads to things taking a long time (or forever). I'm saying: lower the price of books. It shouldn't take much time to do, and I think it is highly beneficial for the game.

[Kallias]

While I agree they're probably over priced, I don't think it's a big enough deal to fix. I'd just suggest when new books are added to the game they be around 1 electrum or so.

IC I consider it as the books in the shops that we can purchase are very rare books...collectors items so to speak. That's honestly the only reason I could see someone wanting to buy them all, just to say they own all of them.

[Ocius]

The price is right for the value and rarity books should have in such a setting as this game is supposed to have. Especially if proceeds are going back to the player! I'm in a great RP right now where we had to split the costs so we could afford a couple books we need and are sharing them. That alone is worth the cost!

[Isolrem]

RP can come out of anything. too often I've seen people side with bad things because they "incite RP"... I'm sorry but I can't agree with your reasoning. The fact that you have to split costs to afford a few books means you will be unlikely to read more of them, and do you think it is the collective opinion of FK authors out there that their works should be so inaccessible? I for one would love it if everyone could read my books, but I'm sad to report that a large number of publications are purchased a total of one to a few times. Also, most of these books wouldn't be considered rare by any standards (though their value is debatable, of course)

edit: btw am I the only one around who actually wants to read all these books, but just can't afford them? That's a pretty ridiculous sentiment to have imo.

[Elke]

No, I 100% agree they are too expensive, and this has come up before in various discussions, especially ICly.

Expensive makes sense, given the lack of printing press, until you realise that magic ought to have a definite impact on printing costs, and also that the setting, whilst medievalesque, still has a phenomenally high standard of literacy throughout the world.

There really does need to be a lending library, I've heard of some player libraries but they still aren't well advertised.

And Amanuensis, out of the Spell Compendium, is a cantrip that allows copying at 250 words per minute...

Honestly, if Elke could afford them and didn't have her mind set on other things (and of course, had a dwelling to -put- them in) she would not only have a far higher ratio of swords to books, she would have books wall-to-wall and not one sword to be seen...

[Raona]

I have to say I'm with Isolrem on this one: lower book prices would aid new players, young PCs, and the game as a whole.

Perhaps a mechanism could be put in place by which book price scaled with level? 100% at 50th level, 10% at 5th level...so you are encouraged to do your reading young, and to have youngsters buy books for you? That would also save re-coding all the book prices.

[Elke]

Perhaps a mechanism could be put in place by which book price scaled with level? 100% at 50th level, 10% at 5th level...so you are encouraged to do your reading young, and to have youngsters buy books for you? That would also save re-coding all the book prices.

*pulls a face*

I don't like this idea much, partly because it will penalise everyone whose characters levelled before this sort of change, and mostly because it's a bit nonsensical. What I'd rather see is much more selective pricing. Some books should be battered, cheaply-made and very cheap - others should be rare or in some other way highly valuable. I'd much prefer to see lots of books for sale at a couple of gold to represent being bound hastily, cheap paper and blurry woodcuts, and have a few select volumes being several platinum (say 10, 20, more even) to represent the demon-hide bound, finest paper with colour plates folios...

There are some books, especially on adventuring for beginners and the basics of religion, that should be very cheap, if not free. (One of the things I love most about the knowledge-religion type quests are the free books ) A specific annoyance of mine is where expensive books are -required- to be bought for low level quests. Surely these books should be either free, available for loan somewhere or in some other way available without having to pay several platinum...

[Vantaniael]

I actually like the pricing as it is. If people are that keen on reading all these books, I think it promotes people to track down authors or just other players to borrow books from them. If I like a book, then I am then entirely willing to go out and spend the platinum to obtain a copy. It also stops people walking around with the unrealistic contents of a library in their pack. I like having to be more selective, more particular, it adds more value to me for every purchase.

I would suggest rather you be able to 'return' books or contribute them to a public library or secondary vendor for some of your platinum back, and then the books are resold at a reduced price as second hand.

Though ultimately I dont find anything wrong with the system as it is.

[Lirith]

I don't like this idea much, partly because it will penalise everyone whose characters levelled before this sort of change, and mostly because it's a bit nonsensical.

I don't see why it's nonsensical. I think Raona's idea is a pretty good solution. Saying that any characters that are too high level won't get to take advantage of it is just tough luck. Characters that have levelled faster might have had other advantages in different areas that newer characters don't have, and any new character that you make will be able to take advantage of the change.

The pricing could be justified IC since lower level characters are likely to be less well-known, therefore a book seller might be more likely to offer them a tatty, wooden-bound version of a book. They might even offer them a cheaper, second-hand one. An higher level, well-known character might be more expected to have more money to spend and therefore would be offered the more expensive, leather-bound version with gilt edging of the same book.

[Elke]

The pricing could be justified IC since lower level characters are likely to be less well-known, therefore a book seller might be more likely to offer them a tatty, wooden-bound version of a book. They might even offer them a cheaper, second-hand one. An higher level, well-known character might be more expected to have more money to spend and therefore would be offered the more expensive, leather-bound version with gilt edging of the same book.

It's the IC justification I was referring to, and whilst you've come up with a fairly good justification, I still think it should be entirely reasonable for the high level character to say, "Actually, rather than a lovely well-bound version I want to buy lots of cheap tatty books - thanks!" It wasn't intended as a personal criticism, just that the whole idea gets to me and gives me an uncomfortable prickly feeling because of the need for the justification at all.

Besides, honestly, as already stated, the solution for the high-level character would be to collar a newbie fresh out of the temple and say, "I'll give you a 10% profit if you'll go buy me....-these- books! I'll even stand next to you and give you the coin." Which stretches my willing suspension of disbelief...somewhat, especially in the instances where the high-level character has lots of appraisal & bartering skill and the lowbie...doesn't.

Does that make sense at all?

[Vantaniael]

Actually you bring up a rather novel idea in the second part. Though having mobs instead of high level characters ask you to buy them books, without being specific. You can read the books before you turn them in and either get some of or more than your money back from the effort. This would not be all that hard to set up, I'd think.

[Elke]

Unfortunately, and to my everlasting regret, I think that was your novel idea, not mine

[Bellayana]

I personally think that the prices are good as they are. Bella herself has purchased books, and has not regretted it. Books are for nobles or for higher stock of characters. Most people do not even know how to read, like your low commoners and such. If you are adventuring, purchasing a book for two to five platnium not only rewards the bard that took the time to write it, but rewards the fact books are valuable for their knowledge they hold.

-No I am not a Oghman.

[Isaldur]

To expand on Raona's idea and Lirith's backing of it I'd like to suggest the following..

Instead of scaling by level, why not scale by quality? Different prints, age, etc. One shop is full of cheaply bound knock-offs while other shops have gilded and heavy bound books that are expensive.

The kicker? Make it so books degrade when read. That way if you pick up a cheap book for 10 copper there's a chance of destroying it through reading before you even finish all the chapters. Pick up a book that is 5 platinum and be able to read it many times from front to back over and over.

Pretty much scale cost of the book by the quality, and if your book degrades to the point of you being afraid of totally losing it from reading damage, elements, time, etc you take it to a Binder (PC Skill idea? More mundane way of using scribe?) and get it repaired back up to better quality for coin.

[Saranya]

I'm really with Bellayana on this one. I sort of like the second-hand idea, but worry it doesn't reward the authors enough...and I think they should be! (Don't talk to me about the RL years that went into the only two books I've managed to put together.)

I support the idea of libraries and other player-driven swapping. Lathandite questees (currently) are provided lending copies and encouraged to swap and share. They can go purchase copies of every book in the Realms when they are rich and have dwellings to store them in! (*cough*miriel*cough*) But an adventurer (even an Oghman!) walking around with fifty books stuffed in their bag just isn't IC-ly realistic to me.

What if we created another book type, like a pamphlet or something that could be cheaper and used for less scholarly tomes or stuff people want widely distributed? Like newspapers, watch information, City Guides, trashy fiction... The only thing is it would need to be limited to those works really appropriate for such a 'soft press'.

EDIT - Just saw Isaldur's post. Great idea!

[Elke]

I think I was hoping that there might be a set of books that were cheap 'standards' but that most of the PC books would be more expensive. (Although maybe you could set the pricing before you sold? I mean, I'm sure that selling cheap might lead to more sales in the long run and more profit....probably one of those balancing acts)

I do like Isaldur's idea, but honestly I still think that they are just too costly as is. I think there may be a lot of things in, and elements of, the game which are too pricey because they are set up for a previous era when coin was easier to earn.

Perhaps there could be free book tokens? Not sure about that, just spinning out an idea here...for newbies at the temple?

[Isaldur]

I do like Isaldur's idea, but honestly I still think that they are just too costly as is. I think there may be a lot of things in, and elements of, the game which are too pricey because they are set up for a previous era when coin was easier to earn.

Perhaps there could be free book tokens? Not sure about that, just spinning out an idea here...for newbies at the temple?

Elke, the assumption that coin was easier to earn in a previous era is wrong. Coin has and will always be a direct equation of Time = Money. More time you put into making money, the more you make. This is why all my characters have always been and will always be dirt poor.

As for the free book tokens, I'm not big on that. Part of the quest is finding those books because they expect you to go through the effort of earning the coin to buy them or hunting down and convincing someone to loan them to you. It's circumventing the whole idea of the quest process if you give away free books to new players and it also enables them because that is one less reason for them to learn where and how to earn money or connections to people that have books and items.

I'm in agreement with the fact that books are rather expensive for those who just want to do a quest, but I also agree with every reason as to why they are. That is why I'd rather see a system where people who want to keep libraries in good condition can do so, and people that don't give a rats behind about books other than quests can buy a cheap copy with a chance that cheap still won't give them what they need.

It's comparable to situations where you have a quest to go kill NPC Jimbob.. do you bring a sword that is in good condition, or bad? Both can kill him but one has a greater chance of breaking before you finish the quest.

[Gwain]

I'd love for a library in game that let's you read on the premises but does not let you leave until you return the books. Libraries to me are places where people that don't own or cannot afford books can go and enjoy them. Have a few select ones with different types or authors in different places, make them noastral and maybe have a one time fee for library cards.