Favor for Good-Aligned Deities

[Kinal]

While having 15 corpses in a room, and mass burying them for favor doesn't seem realistic, it was more or less the only supply of favor that followers of good-aligned dieties got. Take Tyr for example, his favor comes directly from burying corpses, and rescuing/healing others. However, a Cyricist gets favor from killing...well, anything. It seems that with the new code update and changes to burying corpses, it takes much too long, and much too much energy to do so, leaving good-aligned diety followers in the dog-house for favor. Especially a rogue, who focuses mostly on some sort of thief-oriented roleplay, rescuing and healing is out of the question, leaving just burying corpses. But is it too hard now? Thoughts, anyone?

[Dovan]

A bit more tiring and intensive has burying become, but I think it's a favorable change. I don't like the fact that a shovel is needed for some humanoid corpses (hell, even something named small was too big).

That being said, there are other ways to handle corpses that might not be as intensive.

[Aveline]

It seems that with the new code update and changes to burying corpses, it takes much too long, and much too much energy to do so, leaving good-aligned diety followers in the dog-house for favor. Especially a rogue, who focuses mostly on some sort of thief-oriented roleplay, rescuing and healing is out of the question, leaving just burying corpses. But is it too hard now? Thoughts, anyone?

To me it has always seemed like evils have more options in the way of gaining favor, or maybe not more options, but it is easier. I think this is how it should be though. I think the favor gaining good v. evil wise is fairly balanced. Sure they get favor for ever bleeping thing they kill, and there are a couple of other ways for them to gain favor as well, but goods have more opportunities to go out and gain favor than the evils do. Goods get to go out on more adventures, are generally more often seen by imm run things where they might get extra favor. And also, for many goods, gaining favor is as simple as casting spells/prayers on someone, or even having someone cast them on you. It might be hard for rogues, but I think overall the favor getting is pretty balanced. And if the rogue is a thiefy rogue then most likely they are not following a good-aligned deity anyway and there are other options for them to gain favor too. (I know there are some thiefy rogues that aren't evil!) If a good goes on an adventure with even one other person, there are so many opportunities for that person to gain favor, evils don't have as many of those opportunities.

I like the change to burying so that people cannot spam bury. I like that you have to take your time to bury something now, and thought it was even a little too easy to gain favor. To be loved enough by your god to be able to call down for a favor or a treasured item, should take a lot of work. People can still spam gain favor if they want to and know how. I know they will, but hope that they don't. To me this is one of those things that should be a long term thing that is done slowly over time.

[Mele]

You begin to chant.
You allow blooming vitality to flow from you to X.
You sense that your patron is displeased by your actions.
You begin to chant.
You allow blooming vitality to flow from you to X.
You sense that your patron is displeased by your actions.
You begin to chant.
You allow blooming vitality to flow from you to X.
You sense that your patron is displeased by your actions.
You begin to chant.
You allow blooming vitality to flow from you to X.
You sense that your patron is displeased by your actions.

Just mentioning... ;)

[Kallias]

that's only casters though. most classses are unable to do that

[Bregga]

I would imagine a fighter would be looked on unfavorably if he aided or rescued a comrade.

[Lathlain]

Fleeing tends to be rather bad for evil favour too, if you're into that sort of thing

That said, it doesn't mean that the current system is ideal by any means! What if all priests got favour for casting bless? Good alligned fighters of certain faiths should probably get it for using rescue, and possibly even aid. Does anyone have any ideas of ways the sytem can be expanded to prevent spending 4 hours a day solemnly burying corpses in the vain hope that your god will like you?

[Mele]

They do get it for rescue and aid. :)

SOME evils get it for kills, but nearly ALL lose it for any beneficial actions. It works out in the end, imo!

[Lathlain]

They do get it for rescue and aid.

Shows how often I've played good! Anyway - other ideas are still welcome

[Kinal]

I completely agree with Lathlain. The bury spam is nearly, if not completely code abuse. However, rescue and aid being the only way for favor for most good-aligned fighters? The path from ignored to loved would take...well, a long time. A goal which is almost completly unattainable for some players. Which makes the benefits of favor such as supplication items, resurrection, and recall completely useless, if you can't get to them. The evils are set, I think. It makes sense to be able to kill lots of things and get favor. Burying 1000 corpses in a 2 hour play session with little to no RP, not so much. However, a happy medium is needed.

[Raona]

Perhaps giving coin to the church or to those in need could be another avenue for the good-aligned?

[Alaudrien]

Tithing the church would do good yes! Hmm what about gaining favour now and then for other successful skill uses? Not a 100% favour gain but say you're diety is pleased by your skillfulness as they are out there in there name. Ie like a tymoran warrior you'd think would be looked well upon by Tymora because she favours boldness and the skillful? It could work for any alignment. Make it like a 2% or so I don't think that's to high. So if they are fighting and one of this list of skills gets agood roll you get favour?

[Kallias]

Evil deity worshippers have it much easier, I'd wage overall favor gain with the same time of logged time an evil deity worshipper will have 10x as much favor gained than the good/neutral counterpart...potentially more.

That being said, I don't think it to be too much of an issue. The game demands that your body is able to be retrieved, on an evil PC this becomes an issue due to much fewer PC's who are willing to aid the character. Players who don't know other players (so you can just IM someone to log a PC that can potentially help) may sit around for days without anyone logging on who can be of assistance. They require resurrection more.

While this likely is not the intention, I find it suitable - even though most good deities would favor their followers for killing evil creatures as much as an evil god would favor their followers for killing good creatures.

[Mele]

You realize that bury and cook give you favor no matter what level you are, while killing and sacrificing do not? If I'm guessing correctly here, unless something is around your level you don't get favor for either.

[Kinal]

Alaudrien has a good idea. To expand, maybe a druid getting favor for going up a skill level at a druid-oriented spell, or skill? Same thing for rangers, Ranger A goes up and slice and Entangle, Mielikki gives him favor. Tempus giving favor for going up in a weapon, or battle-like skill.

Player of Ketlic says from over my shoulder-

"I like the tithing to the church, too. However the already-rich would instantly have huge amounts of favor. How about limiting it to once a day?"

[Kallias]

I don't understand what you're getting at, Mele. Even if that is true (which I don't believe it to entirely be), that's like saying "The sun isn't actually 15,000 degrees Fahrenheit - it's actually 11,000...you realize that, right?"

It's freakin' hot. That's the point.

It's incredibly lopsided. Everyone agrees on that. The issue is: "does this lopsidedness cause any real issues"? I don't understand trying to qualify the issue by arguing for it to be slightly less than what others are suggesting is the case.

I personally don't think it's an issue - for my reasons above.

[Mele]

I spent three hours in the wee hours of the night last night killing and sacrificing corpses as an evil and received 0 blue favor flashes. I woke up this morning and added that to the discussion because it's a relevant fact. Especially to those who do not have or play evils with the ability to gain favor who are unaware of what the grass is like on the other side of the fence.

A one line addition is hardly a deep argument to either side of anything. It's called input.

[Isaldur]

Just a question I'm curious about regarding perceived imbalance with favor.

Does anyone think it is unfair that in many cases divine spellcasters or warrior subclasses who can cast divine spells have an easier time gaining favor? I personally feel it makes sense because of the connection one needs in order to cast divine spells, but should balance trump logic?

[Saranya]

In my experience, I agree with Mele that favour granting per goods and evils seems to balance out. My main evil PC is always losing favor due to aiding other members in the form.

However, I think the new lag with burial is way excessive. When grouped (which is most of the time), I've been asked OOCly to stop burying because it's slowing everyone down too much. With limited playing time and trying to coordinate schedules to organize an outing, RPing burying a corpse only has so much appeal. So then I'm forced to do something un-IC, like abandon a corpse on the side of the road.

This change was to punish people burying too much? *boggle* 'Preventing' behavior by adding endless lags and tedium just seems silly to me. People who want to 'twink' are still going to do it, while the rest of us with maybe less playing time struggle even more. I'm not trying to be negative or get screamed at (again) but it's just my opinion that these sort of code changes just give into the people who were whining about other people's RP (OPP? OPRP? ) and overall makes the game less fun. With all the changes it's almost easier to sit around in MS and talk about adventuring then try to go and do it.

[Zorinar]

I agree with Saranya on this point. This seems to be another example of trying to make things more real-life like and taking the fun out of it. The stamina and time requirements are so heavy, that I no longer take the time to bury anything. I did it once and probably never again. I recently saw sometime do one bury without realizing it was changed and they said oocly, that they would never be doing that again either.

There is a danger is trying to make everything completely make sense in a real-world-like way on a mud.

Before, you didn't really need a shovel to bury and a lot of people thought it a bit un-ic to be burying without a shovel but usually my weight went up to heavy when I carried a shovel around so I just never did. Burying was exclusively used to gain favor in my case, which I never really grinded hard anyway. And as I think about it, it doesn't really seem unreasonable for people to have gained favor that way. If it was the real world, people would have gained favor with their god by all their daily actions combined, and the way they have faith. You can't do that on a mud, all you can do are some specific actions. Mass burying can be thought of as a way of collecting all that favor that you probably built up all day long as a faithful member of the church. Fortunately as a Tempurian, my character has other ways to gain favor, by dying for example. I assume priests can gain favor by healing, which puts them way ahead of anything a warrior can do now that bury is what it is. Perhaps that's intention? Priests probably should have easier ways to gain favor.

In the end, I guess that I am trying to say that this isn't a MUSH. Things don't have to make perfect IC sense in everything you do. It's fantasy, and the role-playing aspect is strong enough here that you don't have to force the mud to be a MUSH to get the best of both worlds.