Hate the character, don't the hate the player

[Arnof]

This isn't meant to upset anyone, let me make that clear from the start... But, as I read this thread and realize that it's actually gone as far as it has and received as much attention as it has, I find myself disappointed. We're all supposed to conduct ourselves as adults here. Whether you are actually an adult or not isn't relevant in any sense. We need to hold ourselves to a standard, a level of respect for one another that clearly hasn't been practiced, consistently, by everyone who gathers around FK. FK's just a game, this isn't serious... Yes, we spend a lot of time, emotion and mental energy developing our characters and roleplay, but... It just doesn't matter. I find myself pretty frustrated that something like this even has to be discussed.

Just keep things in perspective, everyone. Realize that you're here with people from nearly every continent, all genders and backgrounds of all varieties. We need to behave with maturity, consideration and respect. It's simple. Really.

B

[Shabanna]

My comments are difficult to describe and unless you have been a target its difficult to comprehend. I apologize for adding fuel to a fizzled fire. It was rekindled to me the eve before this post... and against that little voice ( which I need to learn to listen to...) telling me I should spend my time doing other things besides posting. I decided to try to explain a situation I find distressing but is impossible at best to convey. Which... is why it will mostlikely continue... sadly.

Indeed most of us are grown-ups. And I am not talking about... something that is IC behavior. I am talking about OOC being repeatedly stuffed onto the IC screen when it has no place. In other words OOC opinions being expressed ICLY in a way that is harassing to another player.

It is impossible at best to convey and I apologize for being long winded and vague. Stuff happens... In the future if it happens again I will bite my tongue and remove myself icly from the ONE bad seed/thorn in my side and go back to playing with everyone else that makes the game enjoyable to play.

Banna

[Gwain]

That sounds like a relatively good idea. Its always better to enjoy the game itself than to feel victimized by it. Try to find methods to better enjoy it and you probably will find less to be upset about.

[Urival]

Well i just stumbled on this post, and i couldnt agree more, though, we all find ourselves getting angry at variuos people for various reasons, ic and ooc. Its human nature, all i can say is...take a deep breathe and remember its a game, its suppost to be fun. In my many years of playing ive had quite a decent list of enimies. There for the most part been good people oocly that we just downright hate eachother icly. Ive ran into some folks that i didnt get along with oocly either, and mostly it was because they think some lunatic (this was mostly on another game, not here) has to be playing my charicter, or my own paranoia about there charicter, in this event i tend to go with the post from before. Just aviod the person, and in most cases if your dealing with someone that cant seperate ic and ooc you dont want to rp with them anyway. Also in most cases, these people will agree to aviod you as well, unless there just an ass, and then id say go to the complaint area. Also keep in mind, if you feel someone is rotten, send them a otell, and see if there tone changes, often these people arnt bad people its just they are playing there charicter. Take urival for example, hes a complete jerk, a crazy person that wants nothing more then to kill you and if he could, sac everything you own to talos. Does that mean i want you to loose your gear, and your charicter to spend 1000 hours in the fuege? Of course not, thats just urival and dont worry, he got killed ALOT for it . Now we are all guilty of this, ill be the first to admit i catch myself doing it all the time, my most notable rememberance was a helm palidin dude. For the longest time i just flat out couldnt stand him, but then one day i got to talking to him on and he was a normal, smart person, and after that we chatted oocly often even though icly we pretty much attacked eachother on site, and it usally ended up with me dead or barely excaping.

[Arnof]

Hopefully this thread has done it's job, everyone's learned the lesson and now we can let it die.

[Saranya]

Arnof, little written on this thread would lead me to think this problem has been solved. We have the same issues crop over and over through the years because we are all guilty of engaging in the same arguments. Everyone tries, but it's a bitter-hard cycle to break.

Get over it, move on, grow up, take responsibility, stop playing the victim, learn to block people on Instant messengers, curb your arrogance, stop crying...I don't enjoy being dictated to about how I play my character because someone else cannot handle the divide between IC and OOC....

No matter what happens, you can trust that your complaint will be dealt with if it is within the guidelines outlined in the helpfiles.

Two things trouble me:

• Some people seem to think that if you send them a polite otell to back off (because you feel OOC harassed, are uncomfortable with the direction of the RP, whatever)...then you're playing the victim card, a whiner, not "tough", spoiling their fun, etc.
• The idea that any problem which is "legitimate" will eventually be solved by Complaints. (FWIW, I'm batting 0 for 3 on that.) I appreciate the effort put in by the people who spend time reviewing complaints, but maybe it's impossible for people to critically look at their friends that they've known for ages, serve as game staff, etc.

There is a difference between perceived personal attacks and having an ooc request stating that what someone is doing is ruining their time on the game, falling on deaf ears.

Amen, brother.

Maybe all we need is trying harder to remember that even if we don't agree with someone, we should at least respect their concerns?

[Gwain]

[*]The idea that any problem which is "legitimate" will eventually be solved by Complaints. (FWIW, I'm batting 0 for 3 on that.) I appreciate the effort put in by the people who spend time reviewing complaints, but maybe it's impossible for people to critically look at their friends that they've known for ages, serve as game staff, etc.[/*][/list]

I'd just like to point out that no one but the mortal council leaders (Admins and Imms) responsible for complaints ever sees and deals with complaints. There is no documented number of complaints listed or logs of complaints open to the general population of the mud. Nor should there be, because complaints are private matters that take into account various situations and the players associated. Just because three submitted complaints were not solved to your satisfaction, does not mean that dozens or tens of dozens were not solved or dealt with to the satisfaction of other players involved in those conflicts. You should send in your complaints if you feel that they are valid within the rules. You should not be dissuaded by earlier complaints sent in if the need for a submitted complaint is apparent. I've always found the admins that run complaints to be fair and capable within the rules that govern both imm and pc. I'll say it again though I say it a great deal: If you have a complaint worthy issue, you should send it in to complaints to get help or resolution from the mortal council.

[Arnof]

Arnof, little written on this thread would lead me to think this problem has been solved. We have the same issues crop over and over through the years because we are all guilty of engaging in the same arguments. Everyone tries, but it's a bitter-hard cycle to break.

Then I think it's safe to assume this thread isn't going to solve the problem. Basically, I think it funnels down to something awfully simple. FK has players that plain and simple don't understand how to handle themselves with a degree of maturity in a pseudo-social situation. They've existed in different forms for the decade+ that I've been here. Having a non-targeted, broad discussion on the boards is pretty unlikely to mean anything to them and certainly isn't likely to sink in past the ego one must have to be so blatantly negligent towards general decorum.

B

[Harroghty]

Ben,

I think that is a little bit more forlorn of a prospect then we've got. I did not really want to be involved in this thread because, yes, I agree that a thread will not solve this issue. You cannot force people to behave in a mature manner, neither should you try. Mature is not an objective quantity to be defined and published.

The only "solution" to this problem is to provide people a resource to air their complaints and grievances and to admonish people to remember to respect other's wishes (we've all maybe gone too far at one point or another so, if the shoe fits, wear it). If two players cannot resolve their issues mono e mono then they have the complaints function as an appeal, but it does not need to go that far! You could choose a trusted third party to mediate. You could do any number of things.

We have all been frustrated here. I personally was very frustrated back in 2006 and made a post that I am not proud of, but I probably would have been better served by writing a complaint. Fortunately for me, we have a friendly player base and staff who overlooked my hasty post, fixed the issue in my absence, and I returned to the game in mid-2007 to find that all was right with the world.

The other players here and the staff are all here to have fun, some of them will offend you sometimes, but please just remember that there are five players ready to make this a fun escape from your day-to-day monotony for every one player that you find difficult!

[Isaldur]

Two things trouble me:

Some people seem to think that if you send them a polite otell to back off (because you feel OOC harassed, are uncomfortable with the direction of the RP, whatever)...then you're playing the victim card, a whiner, not "tough", spoiling their fun, etc.

I can't speak for anyone else as I stated in prior posts, and as has been said before to try and curtail anyone believing they are under attack within these posts, when I say you I am speaking in a purely general sense of a prevailing attitude that I quite disagree over certain aspects with.

My assumptions are based solely off observations of repeat behavior. I don't expect everyone to adhere to my philosophy of treating IC issues as IC issues. I will never condone blatant OOC harassment if it is truly OOC and not just someone looking too far into IC behavior with a heavy degree of paranioa and believing it stems from OOC harassment. There is a large difference between someone sending you IM's every day calling you slurs and insults, and someone playing a character that has goals and aspirations that differ from yours. But that begs the question for me, why even let them continue to send you those IM's?

If I go play football but hate being tackled constantly do I suddenly start telling the other football players "Please stop tackling me, I don't like it and it ruins my fun" when that league's rules clearly allow tackling? No, I either learn to deal with it or I find a touch/flag football league more suited to my personal tastes.

I fully understand I am in the minority when it comes to wanting people to be able to seperate IC and OOC. To act with civility and maturity OOC even when what is happening to their CHARACTER may not be gumdrops and puppies. To understand that you hold the most responsibility for all that effects you more than anyone else, because you have the most understanding and control over the outcome from yourself.

Shabana's idea of trying to avoid the few characters that upset her is one I do myself regularly, or the MUD entirely if I feel I am mentally not up to snuff. However I have never asked anyone to leave me alone OOC because of something that happened IC. I've asked them IC to pike off and never show their face again and provided plenty of reprecussions they may encounter, character to character. Once again, I don't expect anyone else to adhere to those standards.

I'm not sure if the ego comment was aimed at me Arnof, and if it was I have no excuses. It is my obligation as a member of this community to provide a contrary view for those who do share the same as me, or even just parts of it. Being part of a community means I am solely responsible for my own conduct and behavior, up to and including reactions to anything I dislike.

[Arnof]

I'm not sure if the ego comment was aimed at me Arnof, and if it was I have no excuses.

Absolutely not.

B

[Isaldur]

I'm not sure if the ego comment was aimed at me Arnof, and if it was I have no excuses.

Absolutely not.

B

I got a huge ego though.

[Arnof]

I'm not sure if the ego comment was aimed at me Arnof, and if it was I have no excuses.

Absolutely not.

B

I got a huge ego though.

Now I can have Beyonce and Lil' Wayne stuck in my head for the rest of the day.

Cheers,
B

[Shabanna]

So regardless of how angry I have become OOC at things ( Or people) I have every intention of sticking around. Because I love the people I know for real OOC....and I dont say it enough.

LOL Everyone on this game has their own personal experience, some never have to deal with being harassed or messed with ooc and some have the opposite experience. Rumor mills are rumor mills and where ever there are people there are egos to be fed and people who will be nice and people who will be rude and hateful. And there are plenty of folks who despise one another OOC... its like any other group. SOoo from this moment forward... I do not care... what people who do not know me for real... do or say of me OOCLy...Nor do I care what is done to my characters ICLY...by other characters...I will continue to play... Because I want to. (yep... sorry to anyone who was placing a bet...I... am not goin away ;0) lol

The most interesting thing I read in this thread was a quote that said... "even I have my limits of how far I will go to get to anyone." Does that mean people WILL try to get to someone? Or just that they will stop at some mysterious line in the imaginary sand ? Not that I care.. but I found it an interesting thing to say since it implies that one would actually try to get to someone. I think it best if we all do not strive to *get to* people because its a game... but there are lots of people who DO try to *get to* people. The reason I am pointing this out... is that none of us knows really what our words do to others. Some people have thicker skin than others!! And in truth... Most of us know very little about SOME of the people we play with.

On that note I would like to say... that I have, over the years of being here, made some amazing friends. I have been to a wedding, I have seen mud babies IRL. I have met some of the best friends I would ever have here! Some of the people I will never meet were amazingly helpful. Michael Urdo and Aelsian's players helped me stay awake for days when my son had a concussion and I had to be up all night with him, some have helped me through the death of both of my parents... and some have supported me in the past 2 years which were the most difficult years I have experienced in my adult life. I can not adequately express how much I thank the people who are kind OOCly to me... the people who have taken the time to get to know me... instead of hearing a rumor about me and making a choice of what sort of person I am supposed to be. Those I will count as my real friends... people I love and people i would do anything to help if they needed and it were in my capacity to do so...they are people who have sat with me over coffee.... who I have stayed with and visited... people who call me everyday or text me to say Hey... are you okay or whats up. The REAL friends I have made here... are amazing people and you all know who you are!! you are all the reason why I will continue to play no matter what else happens.

I love the people in my life who have made a difference FOR REAL in my REAL life. ( Some of whom... are enemies of mine ICLY lol In case you were wondering ) *hugs* to those who take the time... IRL to know the real me

/rant
Shabanna