Fighters and Retroactive Bonus Feats

[Athon]

I might be calling forth a firestorm here, being a suggestion against current policy. But I feel like this discussion is worthy.

Background: Older fighters in FK don't receive bonus feats. Fighters are supposed to gain up to a total of 11 bonus feats, depending on when they join the guild. This is consistent with 3.5 ed rules. However, fighters that were made before feats came into play were chosen not to be granted these bonus feats, retroactively. This decision, from what I gather, was largely made because older fighters had advantages of being "old-code." There is a large amount of truth to this, but things have changed. Let's analyze these advantages:

Stats: Old-code chars had more stats points than new characters. Exchanging glory allowed some players to get very high stats across the board. Barring the very few fighters from way back that managed to train to STR over 18, the only differences between the fighters of old (with extra stat points from glory) and the fighters of new is that the fighters of old will have higher INT/CHA/WIS scores (I'm generalizing here). In either system, all fighters had and have the chance of maxing the three important stats to fighters (to 18): STR, DEX, and CON. All other choices are intrinsic, RP-driven stats that have little impact on character power.

Gear: Old-code chars also have the advantage of access to gear that is no longer available. I know that before the changes to the AC system, fighters in high-end gear were devastating. However, the game has changed and now all of the armour has been normalized. Now? Most old-code warriors are running around in high-level dungeon gear that is less protective than current high-end PC-made armour. In effect. every character in the game has access to some of the best armour possible. I know that with only one current GM-smith, it will take time, but others are following suit. I'm not as up-to-date with weapon coding, but I honestly only know of one, specific sword from way back when that MAY be better than what players can get now. And even then, I haven't seen anyone wield that sword in years. My guess is that with all the code-changes, that bastard sword no longer stands out much anymore.

My argument: Grant more than 2 bonus feats to older warriors. Maybe not the whole 11, but at least 6 or 7. There are so many fighter feats available to us now (there used to be practically none when feats first came around) and we have no opportunity to use them. We've put loads and loads of time into these characters (Moranall is 9 years old IRL), I'm truly saddened that I cannot utilize him to his fullest potential. I lose out on some very important feats because I am able to train skills quicker due to a higher int? That doesn't seem like a very fair trade-off anymore.


I know I may get flamed hard for this. Feel free to criticize, I'm totally open. But this is my opinion and I feel that in the current terms of FK, it is warranted.

[Anguin]

I'd love to know where you got those base starting numbers for new characters. I thought each stat started at a base of 7, with 18 points to customize?

[Athon]

I'm fairly certain that 'average' starts you at 10. You can put 6 points into a stat, having it at 16 as you exit character generation. I could be wrong.

[Anguin]

I quick forum search confirms that - thank you. That clears up a lot for me. Sorry for the sidetrack.

[Nysan]

So, you are saying I need to make more armor? Check!

But seriously... Gilain is also an old code boy, so I understand your concerns. Would it be nice to get a few extra feat points, yes, but I never felt their absence. Maybe I need to kill more stuff. So, I'll leave this to more stab-happy players.

[Anguin]

I'm so sorry, but I try to plan out my characters well. Charisma starts at 9, not 10?

[Athon]

I'm so sorry, but I try to plan out my characters well. Charisma starts at 9, not 10?

It varies from race-to-race. I was using humans as an example. That is the one stat that I wasn't positive on, as it isn't 'average'. It could very well be higher than 10, too.

[Selveem]

More importantly, those old code fighters generally took the time over the past 7+ years to go GM their skills anyhow. Selveem had almost all his stuff GMed long before his strength was lowered and he spread his points out between int/wis/cha.

Another thing: most players who had high strength were lowered as part of some initiative I'd never even heard of/read about. On my return, that very same day Selveem was approached by 'Someone' and told his strength was going to be lowered back to 18.

[Athon]

Agreed, Selveem. We've been brought in-line with new-code warriors already. So why are we burdened to be weaker than them now?

I just want to point out the following source:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm



There is a reason why fighters get bonus feats: they don't get ANY OTHER abilities.

[Briek]

Auguin all human stats I believe start at 10. Athon I do agree with you in fact Int is not a good trade off as it's not really that essential to a fighter (if you have the patience and time to raise your skills, you will get there eventually anyway.)

Weapons of a magical nature and most armour I agree again, everyone is on a level playing field there and that's what this is about why should a fighter or in fact any class of player be hurt for being around longer?

Okay older characters do have the advantage, which is why I'd also agree they don't get all the feat points in this case but I don't see the problem at all with handing out some of the bonus feats.

[Athon]

I'd like to bring up this thread for discussion. A couple things:

1) Let's be sure to keep this thread civilized. Be constructive, not argumentative.

2) I'm shying away from discussing stat points. There doesn't seem to be a big difference between old and new characters in terms of stats anymore - save from the glory exchange.


I want to focus on discussing why or why not old-code fighters should get bonus feats. Personally, I feel we need bonus feats - at least 5 or 6 of them. We have no way of customizing our fighters anymore. I don't want to break into detail right away - some of my thoughts are above. But I want to hear other thoughts on the matter:

1) Do you feel old-code fighters hold any real advantage over a new fighter? Why?
2) Do you have any other ideas or compromises that address the argument I am presenting?
3) Any other feedback?

Thanks,

Sean

[Xryon]

I'm all for old fighters getting the bonus feats. Maybe I just fall somewhere in limbo, but I know plenty of new fighters could stomp Garumsh.. So, as far as I've been able to tell, we hold no distinct advantage over new fighters.

Perhaps an easy solution would just be to remove trained feats from all current fighters, and set them with the new amount of feat/bonus feat points? One of the concerns, as I recall, was that old fighters received more feat points than new ones can.. This would eliminate that advantage.

[Alvirin]

Perhaps now with the seemingly coming options for glory use, we could walk another step and together end forever all the grievances related to old/no-so-old/new characters, return all the spent glory to all characters, reset all the stats, reset all the feats, keep skills and equipment, and give each character the feats/bonus feats/stats/class-features that deserve according the level.

There is nothing more fair than this, and it will be fair for everyone, old characters will have the option to plan their characters according the new reality of FK and train feats accordingly whereas new characters will never perceive again an unfair advantage over their characters because they came later to FK.

Anything else will be discussion about trying to bring balance but without really wanting it to come.

[Athon]

If that's what it comes down to - I agree with Alvirin. The extra feats are far superior than the extra WIS or CHA our fighters might have. It would be a trade-off I'd be willing to do.

[Briek]

A reset was discussed before, I'd be happy to go through with it.

One thing that isn't quite related to this topic but rather fighters in general...

in 3.5 rules there is no such thing as a fifth attack, there is no base attack bonus for a fifth attack shown anywhere for any core class not even fighters. So I think fifth attack should be removed.

[Nysan]

Reset is a word that terrifies and depresses me. I do not have the RL time nor the willpower to rebuild some of my older characters, especially Gilain. I rebuilt one old character from deletion before, thats enough for me. Said it back when we first talked about a global reset, saying it now... a reset would end my time on FK. I just couldn't do it all over again.

Not trying to threaten or stop discussion on this topic, this is just how I feel. Besides, isn't a character reset one of the options being discussed on the list of possible glory options?

[Athon]

A reset was discussed before, I'd be happy to go through with it.

One thing that isn't quite related to this topic but rather fighters in general...

in 3.5 rules there is no such thing as a fifth attack, there is no base attack bonus for a fifth attack shown anywhere for any core class not even fighters. So I think fifth attack should be removed.

What you say is true, I don't full-on agree with it unless several changes are made.

First, due to the nature of being a MUD, fighters inherently lose ALL of their skills related to closing gaps, moving enemies around - essentially, anything related to 'placement' in combat. That's a lot of utility fighters lose.

Secondly, there are several feats and abilities out there for fighters that let them take advantage of attacks of opportunity and strike mutiple enemies in a round. These currently do not exist in the game.

Third, if we lose fifth attack, what advantage do we have over rangers? None.

Fighters in FK would need more feats and skills available for them, all according to 3.5ed rules, before losing fifth attack or else they will be horrible.

[Selveem]

Fifth attack is something that truly bothers me when it's brought up in discussions about how fighters are on equal footing with rangers and paladins.

I don't know if you actually have a fighter, Briek, but if you pay attention to the actual combat, you would notice that fifth attack almost never lands.

Why?

Well, most people have around 19 - 30 AC after including feats, combat modes, spells, etc.
To be fair, let's say the average is at least 25 AC.

Fifth attack is made at a +0 bonus, meaning you only get your strength mod, feats, and your weapon's inherent bonus if it's magical or at least masterwork. There are very, very few weapons in game above a +1 bonus, so we'll stick with that while I run the numbers for everyone:

Base Attack Bonus: 0
Strength Bonus: +4 (18 Strength)
Magical/Masterwork Weapon: +1
Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus Total: +2
That leaves our total bonus at: 7

With 25 AC, you hit on a 25, so 25 - 7 = 18. That means you have to roll an 18 or higher on your swing to _possibly hit_. That's a 3 in 20 chance which, frankly, is not that high.

I know this derails the topic a bit, but I felt it important to make this counterpoint. Personally, I'd love to be able to just get my feats reset on Selveem. I've trained a few things because at the time there simply wasn't many options for things to train. These things, honestly, I don't really see for Selveem. I think the Glory Exchange would be wonderful if it allowed the reset back to the full fighter amount, but I also realize that my chances are probably 3 in 20.

[Brar]

Reset is a word that terrifies and depresses me. I do not have the RL time nor the willpower to rebuild some of my older characters, especially Gilain. I rebuilt one old character from deletion before, thats enough for me. Said it back when we first talked about a global reset, saying it now... a reset would end my time on FK. I just couldn't do it all over again.

Not trying to threaten or stop discussion on this topic, this is just how I feel. Besides, isn't a character reset one of the options being discussed on the list of possible glory options?

What are you speaking about?

It's the word reset that is perhaps wrongly choose, what is discussed here is a reset of feats and perhaps stats, no one is asking for everyone to go back to level one.... And I think if that is done, there should be an easy way to get back to where you want, at least for skill. I don't think it will be able to take more than 5 minutes of your time... that's nothing to do with "doing it all over again."
But then, I would prefer that to be a glory thing than a global one as it leaves the choice to everybody.
Or perhaps we can do a once voluntary reset, with a once in a time chance to do a reset of your characters (feat and stat only) and if you let it pass, then can't go back.

My 2 cents.

[Nysan]

Eh, I overreacted and didnt read throughly. Sorry.

Still, feat reset through glory is a choice option. Rather have that in over a global feat reset because some feats are now off-limits. How would a lvl 30 relearn spellcasting prodigy, for example? A global reset would leave some unhappy and some happy. A glory payment has a smaller margin for error and playerbase fallout.