Fighters and Retroactive Bonus Feats

[Briek]

Fighters in FK would need more feats and skills available for them, all according to 3.5ed rules, before losing fifth attack or else they will be horrible.

Oh I agree, on that front there are loads of things for many classes in 3.5 rules that I'd love to see in the game, maybe we should make another thread and list them?

Still, feat reset through glory is a choice option. Rather have that in over a global feat reset because some feats are now off-limits. How would a lvl 30 relearn spellcasting prodigy, for example? A global reset would leave some unhappy and some happy. A glory payment has a smaller margin for error and playerbase fallout.

Yeah, a reset would require a lot of help from the Staff to ensure nobody is left with less than they started out with.

[Algon]

1) Do you feel old-code fighters hold any real advantage over a new fighter? Why?

I actually think it is the other way around. Algon is certainly old school, hell is has been around forever. He has the majority of his skills GMed along with a bunch of weapons. That being said, he does not spar anymore because you can com across a newly level 50 fighter with good player made armor and skills no where near his level and they will wipe the floor with him.
AC is everything now, Player made armor is 10 times better than what you can find in game, which to be perfectly honest I do not agree with. But the truth is, if you want to be a good fighter, have a player make you a set of armor...plain and simple.

[Brar]

Well, how fare you compare to a new level 50 against mobs?

And for me, PC made armor are supposed to be better than what you find in quests, even more when/if there willl be magic arms and armour item creation feat and a complete masterwork armor is not that easily aquired now. It takes far more time and ressources. (And pc made armor are not 10 times better, at most you gain a +2 to ac from a pc made armor compared to some of the magic halfplate in the game)

But again, we are in a temporary transition state, the game engine is truly changing and the balance will be found after everything planned is introduced.

Before today, the best you were authorized to build was +1 to AC, hit, damage, ect item and only for pain to do quests. I think there is only one set of items with a fixed +2 to stat but it is unavailable and the only occurence were destroyed years ago. With bonus to stats not stacking anymore from different items (and it is now working as it should) the stats of the "old" players got a big nerf also.
Such non availability of magic items worked in the previous combat system where items played a very minor part in the fighting capability of a character, but plainly won't work in a game engine that mirror DnD because stats for both monsters and players are created in the books considering DnD magic items availability and where itemisation is far more important.
In normal DnD, +5 weapons are not rare for high level adventurer, and the bare minimun a max level fighter would have, for the records, weapons and armors goes to +10 equivalent before hitting epic level.

But I guess that is slowly changing and takes time and effort from builders which is already limited.

I don't count the number of topic raised for just different spelling of the same argument... I'll speak in all honesty, when the same topic is raised for the 4th time in the same week in 4 different topics it irritates me for I find the discussion sterile, I can already see this one topic going the same way as the previous one, people crying and screaming because PvP is not balanced between old and new character or between classes or ect ect...
I also think it is not correct to say again and again that the game is not working so the already overworked staff should work even more, saying it once is good, twice if someone missed the first one, but again and again and again is near harassment in my eyes.
I'm not targetting anyone, it is only a general feeling, and I'm not even in the staff so you can't say I take it personally either

I said it and will say it again, we will never acheive a PvP balance while sticking to DnD rules, I'm not even arguing or anything, just stating a fact that has been proven more times than there is stars in the sky in almost all DnD forum on the internet.
It is not rethoric but mathematics, I had this discussion a lots of time with a great mathematician and numbers don't lies unfortunatly.
It may be harsh or sad to say, but when it comes down to fighting in the mud, it is pure mathematics due to the lack of tactical movement. If you remove the tactical part of a DnD fight, it is pure numbers, statistics and probabilities. But feel free to prove me otherwise, I would be more than happy if you do. I tried a lot of times and never managed to do it.

Now, in DnD feat plays an important part, which is why I am in favor to a voluntary process of feat and stats reset. But I don't think it will change anything in PvP and the same problem will arise again and again. It is the same as trying to run a F1 with an truck engine, it will works, but never properly even if both engine have the same raw power technically speaking.
PvE and Pvp using DnD engine is the same analogy.

In conclusion, I think we should try to stop trying to know who have advantage over whom and just plays together with no jaelousy or looking at the other score sheet. It is already hard enough to keep our own score uptodate to begin to look on the neighbor one...

Again I'm writing a novel but well, you begin to get the habit of that bad side of me

[Dovan]

In the realms of resets I will say this only. If the staff feels this in the correct avenue, let the players come forward that want it. I do not like the idea of everyone having it forced upon them that to not wish it.

As per all this talk about giving back glory, feats, stats. Mmmm, in the realm of glory recall that people have spent glory on other things like renames. If you throw them back all the glory, they're going to basically have free renames. No bueno. Removing all feats from an individual then giving them feat points back? Eeeeeeeh, what if some people have trained in a pretty remote location and might not have the ease as before getting back to said spot to train. What if said trainer isn't even around when they get there now?

Like I said, if people want to be reset let them come forward but don't make everyone follow the path of a few.

*disclaimer* If none of this makes sense, my apologies. Being harassed by kids, Sponge Bob, and lack of sleep can only keep my mind level for such a short period.

[Athon]

Brar,

I just want to point out one thing: my intent for this thread has no merit for PvP. If you look at my Pkill logs, they are almost non-existent. Moranall hasn't sparred someone in over a year of real-life time. He's never even attempted to murder someone. My grounds for this argument are purely from a class structure and overall balance sense. I'm not looking to dominate everyone else in PvP.

[Brar]

As I said, it is not targeted to anyone in particular but a general feeling over the last few weeks topics that were raised.
All my apologize to anyone who feels bad about it, but alas feelings is what they are and can't be helped

But then, I'm all for allowing a reset on a voluntary basis that set your character, "the way it should be".

[Nysan]

My feats opinion has been stated, but since someone brought up player armor... I cannot resist.

Many might consider me bias, cause of Gilain, but I am not. Gilain cannot supply my other characters with armor, after all, so I can see both sides clearly. Player-made armor should be great, nearly the best you can find around, especially these days with the time, money, and effort invested in them. And to be perfectly honest, anyone can get player-made armor. Its a coin investment and a lil RP with a decent smith. Not restricted by a city, alignment, faith, ect. Its open to anyone. Anyone can have gear thats better than 95% of the gear in the game. Its fair.

However, it should not be the best in game. It should be better than store bought, any store, and most quests items. But some quest rewards and certain enchanted armors should be better. Several quests/tasks are hard and grueling and the magical reward should be something Bob the fighter wants to wear a while. Not something replaced by a plain player-made steel breastplate. This is that remaining 5%. But, to be honest again, these hard quests are often hard or impossible for certain characters to get because of faith, city, alignment restricted or cause character XXX is not logged in during a good time to get a group to kill the quest's "big bad scaly deadly thing".

At least player-made armor is flexable to play-times, thanks to PMs, magical post, rotating play-times, ect... allowing everyone to have at least 95% of best.

[Belose]

I remember the old posts talking about fighter resets. I understood finally what they were about and didn't have a problem with them then. The thing is, Braeck doesn't have GM trades at all. He didn't do a lot of mining, smelting, smithing or appraising. He hasn't even reached anywhere near journeyman in those trades. He only has one weapon GM'ed, but that was before the size issues started. Now he can't even use the blade he had. Haven't found anything to match it, really...THAT was a bit depressing. He finally just hit 1000 hours and it is hard to find anyone wanting to go adventuring. I could help low levels, but then there was that old argument about tanking for newbies. Then he got married. Braeck is just wanting to make some babies. That's about the only reason I want to play Braeck anymore, because of all the changes to make stuff more realistic. It takes more time to do anything anymore, and leaves less time for actually playing the game.. even RPing if that's all you CAN do due to few players being online. Now I have a PS3 and even though I still love FK, I have to use my cell phone to connect. It sucks. It ends up more on roaming and dial-up speeds than broadband speeds, even when it says the signal is halfway strong. Braeck used to be my favorite character..but not when he can get his butt kicked by just about anything, anymore. So much for all the training he HAS done. It just doesn't matter any more after all the changes.. he's not a top fighter anymore. So unless he hears he's gonna be a father, you might not see him much at all anymore because of old-code fighters SUCKING!

[Alvirin]

you might not see him much at all anymore because of old-code fighters SUCKING!

See? This is why I think a global reset would be good, this would end.

And while that would be most desirable course of action, giving the option to old characters to undergo the reset only for themselves, only once, by using a command in-game it would be a beginning.

[Brar]

So unless he hears he's gonna be a father, you might not see him much at all anymore because of old-code fighters SUCKING!

There is a problem with fighter in general, but we are completly ignoring it for that damn "old sucks" argument, it's not true. New fighters and melee classes in general sucks the same right now be them old or new, due to the lack of gear corresponding to the Challenge Rating of monsters, that's a known fact I think and one that has been said to worked on several times by our lovely staff.

Now, I wonder what you call "SUCKING!" to take your words, concretly what are the things you can't do anymore?
Perhaps giving concrete argument would help to find more precise problem and adress them. I really don't think a feat overhaul is gonna change everything. I saw my wife fighter plays (and she's even older than Braeck for that matter, with no glory stat/feat spent and no feat trained at all (she's lazy...)) and well, she's already devastating on the short run, as a fighter should be. If she gets buffed (not even healed) by my cleric, she's near unstoppable (and she have no pc made armor, not even full plate).

Perhaps if you all fighters give factual examples of that suckiness (and again, I'm not speaking PvP here), it will make it easier for us all to see the area you are lacking other than items.

The real question is, will a feat reset really change a fighters life and worth the time it will take the staff from doing something else?

Are we not trying to adress a problem instead of the source of this problem ?

[Nysan]

I am not as stab-happy active on Gilain as other fighters are, but when I do engage in combat, I am fairly happy. Of course, I accept he is weaker overall due to his teacher/merchant focused feats/stats and many skills are not GMed. I can still drop a umber hulk or lamia without effort and hold my own against two of them, though pairs leave him hurting bad. Wyverns and their spam-attacking still wipes the floor with old Gilain.... hate those lizards. I'm happy with that limitation and expect things to get better when his fighting skills actually get GMed. Granted, Gilain's stats and player-crafted armor may be a factor in his sucess. I know his stats are definately not the norm for fighters, even older ones. (Love the new score sheet number values.)

Greatly interested in knowing how Selveem or one of the other 'mostly GMed' stand up in the field. Sparring matches don't tell me much, but umber hulk or lamia gives a constant to compare against.

[Harroghty]

I'm not sure that I see a real issue here. My grandmother had one phantom villain in all of her stories and that sounds a little bit like what we've created here from the nameless "new fighter in player-made armor".

For the time being I think you all are overreacting a little bit, but I understand that in time this will become an issue. Your really old PC fighters will be eclipsed by younger ones, but that's how life works. I have the same concerns. I made Harroghty in 2004. I was completely guessing on stats. This is just a role-play challenge for us though.

If you really love your old fighter then you will find a thread of relevance for them and if you really want all the new feats then you are free to roll a new fighter.

[Athon]

I sort of understand what you mean, Harroghty, but I feel my point has been missed slightly.

While the over-riding effect is that newer fighters will start surpassing old-code fighters, that was not my explicit rationale. My rationale for this change is that there was a reason that older fighters were not given bonus feats; however, said reason (based on my assumptions) no longer seems to be valid and therefore I am proposing this thread. So, the long-term effect is that, yes, new fighters can and will surpass old fighters. But the actual rationale is that we want to be brought in line with the actual rules of D20.

Continuing on, you're assessment that you don't see a real problem is quite an understatement. It's rather very clear: we have the least amount of skills/abilities of any class and we have the least amount of group utility (you can make an argument that thieves have no utility, either, but if any builder were to place deadly traps in a high-level dungeon, a thief would be 100% mandatory. Just like in D&D). Secondly, many of us are "stuck" between two FK policies that are, personally, a bit frustrating. What I mean is that we are stuck between the policy that old-code fighters don't receive bonus feats and that any trained feats are not refunded. When feats came out, there were almost no combat feats that were friendly for fighters. Most of us ended up training several points in toughness and endurance since we had no other options. This lasted for years until recently, when all the fighter feats finally were implemented in the game. However, we're stuck unable to train these feats and our apps to have a couple of our endurance or toughness feats get denied. It really feels like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

But to say it's not an issue? Dalvyn a few years back posted a thread which bluntly asked, "How to make fighters more interesting to play?" It ended up to a heated thread that may or may not be ideal, but it should help to illustrate that there is indeed something missing from fighters. The amount of responses in the thread should also help support the many players in favor of a fighter change.

I'm sure some of you will view this as a whine or something. This is my constructive argument for this thread.

[Selveem]

I ran some numbers.

For the record, the difference between old school characters and newer characters is not as immense as people seemed to have believe.

The difference is 2 Stats.

Current characters get a total of 89 to place by the time they're level 50. Old Characters got 91. Of those 91 stats old code characters got, 6 were tied up in Wisdom and Charisima (both set to 13, each, before mods).

New Fighters get a total of 18 Feats. Humans now get +1.

So, basically for the 2 extra Stat points, an old code Human Fighter lost 9 Feats. After checking that, I really don't see the big deal with just allowing old Fighters access to their additional feats.

[Theleus]

I'm not sure what is involved in it, but applying for reincarnation is a possibility. I guess it has been done before.

[Selveem]

I'm not sure what is involved in it, but applying for reincarnation is a possibility. I guess it has been done before.

Yeah, but that kinda defeats the point of spending 2K+ hours and 9 years on a single character raising skill levels and the like. Thanks though.

[Theleus]

I'm not sure what is involved in it, but applying for reincarnation is a possibility. I guess it has been done before.

Yeah, but that kinda defeats the point of spending 2K+ hours and 9 years on a single character raising skill levels and the like. Thanks though.

Maybe a resurrection could be done that reset feats and stats and levels, but kept skills. That would reduce the total stats and give a chance to relevel fully under the new system? Seems fair to me if it's possible.

[Athon]

Even if a resurrection reset feats/stats and kept skills, I wouldn't want to do it on Moranall. I don't think the staff will be in favor of allowing resurrections in this favor nor do I think it is the proper solution to the issue in this thread.

[Theleus]

Even if a resurrection reset feats/stats and kept skills, I wouldn't want to do it on Moranall. I don't think the staff will be in favor of allowing resurrections in this favor nor do I think it is the proper solution to the issue in this thread.

Well, the issue was giving older characters access to all the bonus feats. It does address that concern in a manner that seems fair. The option wouldn't be for everyone, naturally.

[Selveem]

I'm pretty against full stat resets like that. I've explained it many times so I'm not going to waste my breath and anyone else's time by explaining it again.

I will say, however, the thread has nothing to do with 'retroactive stats' nor even retroactive feats, specifically it is about retroactive _bonus_ feats.

A reset of all stat points and feat is like totaling a car when it only needs an oil change.