Glory

[Lathander]

Here is a start. This is a baseline for discussion and nowhere near set in stone. Feel free to offer any suggestions for improvement or comments reinforcing what I've posted. One of the main topics that arose from this thread is that of making glory available on an equal basis to players from multiple time zones. It's a valid discussion, but deserves its own thread rather than continuing it here.

An integral question that must be addressed is whether the costs assigned are realistic considering the rate of glory attainment? If not, is the solution to reduce the cost or increase the glory players can get? Keep in mind, the goal is not for every player to get every benefit.

[Lathander]

For 5 Glory:

• Non-magical object renames
• Increase skill level by 1 (Novice max)
• +1 level of experience (Max level 20)
• Required glory cost needed to activate special quests.
• Change object layers
• Pet renames
• Required cost for induction into special orders (e.g. Harpers, Paladin Orders, Fellowship of the Undermountain) - Does not eliminate IC requirements

For 10 Glory:

• Increase skill level by 1 (Apprentice max)
• +1 level of experience (Max level 25)
• Required amount needed to access special shopping areas
• Specialized, cosmetic traits (glowing eyes, non-functioning wings, etc.)
• Resurrection rather than Reincarnation

For 20 Glory:

• Change hometown
• Increase skill level by 1 (Adept max)
• +1 level of experience (Max level 30)
• Permission to build a dwelling in a non-standard location
• Magical object renames (may not be possible, depending on the object)
• Personalized programs that allow certain mobs to recognize you in defined areas (e.g. Guards who bow to you)

For 50 Glory:

• Forget a feat and regain the feat point
• Swap a stat point from one stat to another (e.g. -1 wis/+1 int)
• Alignment shift from to the nearest next alignment (e.g. LE to NE)
• Specific skills/spells purchased only with glory
• Ability to remake a PC (at L1) but retain equipment
• Special mount/pet chosen from a list appropriate to this level.
• Imm runs a player-designed rp for a specific PC (might require a minimum number of participants)

For 100 Glory:

• Ability to remake a PC (at L1) but retain one chosen skill
• Ability to remake a PC (at L1) but retain one specified spell
• Specific, yet-to-be-decided, races/classes only available for this price
• Special mount/pet chosen from a list appropriate to this level.

Special:

• Creation of a signature/named item (10 Glory)
  • Once the signature object is made, it can be modified at additional cost. Modifications would be restricted by item type. Possible modifications might include:
    • Add permanent glow (5 Glory)
    • Add permanent hum (5 Glory)
    • Echo programs triggered by an event (e.g. glows at dawn) (50 Glory)
    • +1 Bonus spell/prayer/song slot (50 Glory per spell level)
    • Reduce weight to 1 (100 Glory)
    • +1 To-Hit bonus (100 Glory)
    • +1 Stat bonus (100 Glory)
    • +1 AC (base object AC) (100 Glory)
    • Spell-like function useable once per day (100 Glory per spell level)
    • +1 Damroll (150 Glory)
    • +1 damage of a specific energy type (150 Glory)
    • -1 Save (150 Gory)
    • Bestow or increase a skill by +1 (200 Glory)
    • Minor permanent affect (e.g. darkvision, detect_buried) (300 Glory)
    • +1 AC to specific piece of armour (Aff_Protect) (500 Glory)
    • Minor resistance to a specific energy type (750 Glory)
    • Note: Multipile modifications to +stat/to-hit/damage/AC etc. will incur an exponential doubling of the cost.

[Selveem]

Lathander,

Thank you for the time you've obviously put into this. I think the very mentioning of it is wonderful. (I also think the -1 save you meant to put as a +1 save. Saves bonuses are positive.)

I would say, however, that some of the prices I think are way steep.. Not all, of course, but for instance: I believe I have had Selveem for 10 years now (I believe that's accurate. I think I started him my first year of college in 2000). Maybe it's only 9. Regardless, I think we can all agree I've had him a very long time.

His total amount of glory attained is 223. Granted, he's not done every quest it's IC for him to do, but I have long log of 122 quests showing as completed (the ones that actually give qlog finished info).

I don't know what the plans are for glory rewards, but unless they're being handed out at really high rates, I suspect many of them unattainable.

Additionally, as I said previously (which you may have missed, as there are many posts), to-hit bonuses and to-damage bonuses should be equal. There's no such thing as a +5 Legendary Sword that gives only +1 to hit (or only to damage, for that matter).

[Nearraba]

First, I'd like to say that I am loving that Glory is being given attention again and may soon have some meaningful value! All the work being put into it is highly apprecitated, so I would like to say a quick Thank you! Though I do have some opinions.

I am primarily a roleplayer. I don't go out 'questing' or 'mob training' very often. Mostly only when I'm dragged along by friends that need a healer. I can say however that I've been involved in many roleplays in which I've gained exp and kismet and I admit I enjoyed those ways of gaining such, much more than other ways. So, maybe glory could be given as a reward like that as well.

Nicholette has become my main alt and I've played her for 977 hours thus far and only have 31 glory. I can completely understand not wanting everyone to get everything (as thats what makes it special!) but what about characters like mine? Going by this list, we wouldn't be able to even think about getting a special mount/pet.

So, I think maybe the prices may be bit too steep unless the way glory is going to be rewarded is slightly altered, but this is only based on my experience with glory thus far.

[Theleus]

This may go without saying, but may I suggest that signature/named items be tagged as loyal. A weapon. for example, with this tag, goes to inventory if the hand holding it is severed, instead of falling to the ground.

[Briek]

Wouldn't that screw with disarm?

Some brilliant ideas here I love them, but I agree the costs may be a tad high.

[Theleus]

Wouldn't that screw with disarm?

Some brilliant ideas here I love them, but I agree the costs may be a tad high.

The tag loyal prevents a weapon or item from dropping to the ground. Disarm still works, the weapon just drops into inventory instead of to the ground.

[Selveem]

Loyalty doesn't exist in D&D for items without intelligence, charisma, and wisdom scores.

The only thing close to that might be an intelligent item, but even that can be forced into submission. Even in Faerun, intelligent items are very rare. Something like you're talking about would likely have to have a high glory cost (high, relatively speaking to fair cost). This would prevent every Tom, Dick, and Selveem from having one.

Even still, I'm not sure how I feel about incorporating something like "item drops into inventory when disarmed" as it is still outside the scope of even an intelligent weapon. Even intelligent weapons cannot pursue their tasks without a wielder. They cannot hover, fly, or magically relocate themselves into their preferred wielder's hand. The closest thing would be a dancing weapon (which can only fight for 4 rounds on its own before the wielder has to just grab it themselves).

[Theleus]

Loyalty doesn't exist in D&D for items without intelligence, charisma, and wisdom scores.

The only thing close to that might be an intelligent item, but even that can be forced into submission. Even in Faerun, intelligent items are very rare. Something like you're talking about would likely have to have a high glory cost (high, relatively speaking to fair cost). This would prevent every Tom, Dick, and Selveem from having one.

Even still, I'm not sure how I feel about incorporating something like "item drops into inventory when disarmed" as it is still outside the scope of even an intelligent weapon. Even intelligent weapons cannot pursue their tasks without a wielder. They cannot hover, fly, or magically relocate themselves into their preferred wielder's hand. The closest thing would be a dancing weapon (which can only fight for 4 rounds on its own before the wielder has to just grab it themselves).

I'm speaking of the named items you can purchase with glory. I just think that if you invest hundreds of glory into it, that it should be bound to your character so that no one can steal it and if disarmed shouldn't be able to have someone else take that item. Remember that in D&D you don't generally have to worry about losing items.

[Selveem]

Remember that in D&D you don't generally have to worry about losing items.

Not sure what kind of nice, loving DM you had, but I absolutely did have to guard my arms and armor jealously. One time I was asleep in a tavern and someone stole my full suit of full plate.

Another DM stole a player's newly bought +1 long bow because he was walking around with it in a busy tavern over his shoulder.

I see your point, but you must also understand that possibly losing items (especially weapons) is a part of the game if you're not paying attention or involve yourself in character vs character (PvP) conflict. If you fear being disarmed so much, I do suggest not traversing areas whose mobs disarm (or not using this specific weapon there) or having a bauble/piece of armor made instead.

If your specific concern is with a game crash after being disarmed, please read "Help Game Crashes" - while it used to be the policy that such items are not reimbursed, this stance has changed over the years due to the staff's increased player empathy.

[Theleus]

Remember that in D&D you don't generally have to worry about losing items.

Not sure what kind of nice, loving DM you had, but I absolutely did have to guard my arms and armor jealously. One time I was asleep in a tavern and someone stole my full suit of full plate.

Another DM stole a player's newly bought +1 long bow because he was walking around with it in a busy tavern over his shoulder.

I see your point, but you must also understand that possibly losing items (especially weapons) is a part of the game if you're not paying attention or involve yourself in character vs character (PvP) conflict. If you fear being disarmed so much, I do suggest not traversing areas whose mobs disarm (or not using this specific weapon there) or having a bauble/piece of armor made instead.

If your specific concern is with a game crash after being disarmed, please read "Help Game Crashes" - while it used to be the policy that such items are not reimbursed, this stance has changed over the years due to the staff's increased player empathy.

Oh, I had to be careful in taverns and such, but never had to worry about gear being lost during a fight. And I hadn't even considered the game crash thing, I was just thinking that if you supplicate for recovery of your body, that item should stay with your body. I just think the tag loyal is a good idea.

[Bellayana]

I can't remember his name, but there is a follower of Lurue that has a javelin that returns to his hands after he throws it. So there are items that are loyal to those that wield them rightfully.

[Selveem]

That's called a returning weapon. It was mentioned in the link I gave. That doesn't mean the weapon is 'loyal.' Just means it returns to its wielder after thrown. If the wielder fails to catch it, it falls to the ground just like any other weapon.

[Lathander]

In regards to a "loyalty" function of a signature item, I can see the benefit. While it is IC true that disarm should, well, disarm the person and have the weapon fall to the ground, there is an OOC consideration here. Even if we adjust cost values, the glory required to make a signature item should be significant. Any player who loses their signature item after paying so steep a price is going to feel pretty bad OOC. Inequitably so in my opinion. I like the idea of the loyalty function, but think it should be a modification and require a cost (say, 50 glory). You'd have to choose between that spell affect and having the weapon fall to inventory, for instance. Perhaps think of the item being imbued with a magical magnet that bonds it to one person. Now if you die and someone takes it from you, I think that should be different to a certain extent.

On this issue of glory costs, let's take it from two angles. I agree with Selveem (because I have an alt in the same boat) who states that he has a PC with MANY real years of life invested into FK and has accumulated approximately 250 glory over that time (rounded up). That's part one. Part two needs to be an examination of just how many benefits a person should be able to gain via glory. Surely, you can't have a signature item with every modification.

Since the signature item is garnering the most current interest, let's start with that example. What would be the maximum a PC could expect if he spent all 250 glory he's ever accumulated on that one item?

[Theleus]

Speaking from a coding standpoint, items are coded separately and can have a tag called LOYAL. I told you what that tag does. I haven't encountered, as far as I can tell, any items that have that tag, and with the exception of maybe some supplicated items I do not know if it's ever been used, but the tag is apparently coded. And since it is coded, it makes sense that it could be used for these personal items.

[Selveem]

Before I suggest, I'd like to say 250 Glory is more than most characters would have in most situations. An Evil wouldn't do all of the goodie quests and a goodie wouldn't do evil quests. Faithed characters would have special restrictions, but since you suggested this as the maximum, I'll respect that:

I think they should be able to create one signature item with a +5 Bonus (to AC if armor, or Hit and Dam if weapon). If armor, they should be able to modify it with options available here. If weapon, they should be able to modify it with options available here. If a ring, they should be able to choose from these.

Now, I realize not all these things are currently coded, but many of them would take very little effort to add. These items with the elemental (flaming, shocking, etc.) flags seem to be very underpowered. At the very least, an elemental flag to a weapon should add 1d6 damage per successful hit, provided the foe does not have some form of elemental reduction vs that weapon's damage type. There are, of course, higher-end versions of these, too, but this is visible on the above link for magic weapons.


Considering these may be custom items (or just items that have been upgraded), anything past a +2, I think they should be able to create an intelligent item which may have lesser powers (see list below, courtesy of d20srd.org).

Item can bless its allies 3/day
Item can use faerie fire 3/day
Item can cast minor image 1/day
Item has deathwatch continually active
Item can use detect magic at will
Item can cast major image 1/day
Item can cast darkness 3/day
Item can use hold person on an enemy
Item can activate zone of truth 3/day
Item can use daze monster 3/day
Item can use locate object 3/day
Item can use cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) on wielder 3/day

[Harroghty]

I do not believe that FLAG_LOYAL works right now. I know of no item that actually has this flag and while we could fix and implement this flag again, I believe that the simple solution for the potential problem of someone losing their hard-bought item is for other players to be mature and considerate about it. This isn't WoW after all; there are not people running around and looting others without a second thought. Not that I see anyway.

RE: cost of magical items. I think that the right cost is probably about between 125-150 total glory points.

1. Assumptions
a. The average player character (PC) that does quests will accrue between 150-200 glory points in their campaigning life between coded quests and staff-driven role-plays.
b. The PC that does not accrue this level of glory points is probably happy not having the +5 weapon because, like Nicholette's example, they don't often venture out anyway.

2. Objective
a. The goal of the glory system is to provide benefits, but also force you to make a choice about how you spend your points so that every player is not uniformly awesome, but differs and has a variety of strengths and weaknesses through prioritizing their glory use.

So how do we get there? I recommend that we lower the costs of some of the benefits to weapons and tweak them so that we can produce a weapon that is actually worth something (because +1 hit and +1 dam are not hard to come by in this game now, but would cost 260 glory under this system as I read it) for a reasonable cost (something like 70-80% of the average PC's total glory). Arthur only got Excalibur, he didn't get a suit of invincible plate armor and +2 to his STR and CON with it.

I believe that the rest of these costs are pretty reasonable and fair, but I would drop the mount costs a category each (100 to 50, 50 to 20) because that could be a very expensive accident when your sweet renamed mount bites it because you didn't see the hill giant in the next room.

[Theleus]

I do not believe that FLAG_LOYAL works right now. I know of no item that actually has this flag and while we could fix and implement this flag again, I believe that the simple solution for the potential problem of someone losing their hard-bought item is for other players to be mature and considerate about it. This isn't WoW after all; there are not people running around and looting others without a second thought. Not that I see anyway.

RE: cost of magical items. I think that the right cost is probably about between 125-150 total glory points.

1. Assumptions
a. The average player character (PC) that does quests will accrue between 150-200 glory points in their campaigning life between coded quests and staff-driven role-plays.
b. The PC that does not accrue this level of glory points is probably happy not having the +5 weapon because, like Nicholette's example, they don't often venture out anyway.

2. Objective
a. The goal of the glory system is to provide benefits, but also force you to make a choice about how you spend your points so that every player is not uniformly awesome, but differs and has a variety of strengths and weaknesses through prioritizing their glory use.

So how do we get there? I recommend that we lower the costs of some of the benefits to weapons and tweak them so that we can produce a weapon that is actually worth something (because +1 hit and +1 dam are not hard to come by in this game now, but would cost 260 glory under this system as I read it) for a reasonable cost (something like 70-80% of the average PC's total glory). Arthur only got Excalibur, he didn't get a suit of invincible plate armor and +2 to his STR and CON with it.

I believe that the rest of these costs are pretty reasonable and fair, but I would drop the mount costs a category each (100 to 50, 50 to 20) because that could be a very expensive accident when your sweet renamed mount bites it because you didn't see the hill giant in the next room.

I agree that the price seems pretty steep to me, but that wasn't finalized so I was commenting on the content rather then the prices. Hope the loyal tag can be fixed though.

[Lathander]

Correct. The prices have not been finalized. I set the prices at an arbitrary amount that seemed reasonable to me for all of the items on the list except the signature item costs. I used Marty's figures for the signature item costs. Er, I didn't just throw the boss under the bus did I?

I like the direction of this discussion. I agree Harroghty, after I let the discussion go awhile I'll revise the revised list and bump the special mount costs down one category each.

[Atraos]

just out of interest who will handle the required changes and what will the process be to spend the glory? Will it be by app? If so how will the be prioritised as everyone fires in requests?