Spell Mastery Feats

[Theleus]

Spell Mastery Feat
This feat requires at least Novice level skill with a particular spell. Due to special training with this spell, it can be memorized in a slot 1 level lower then normal

Improved Spell Mastery Feat
This feat requires at least Journeyman level skill with a particular spell. This is an improved form of the spell Mastery Feat, and as such requires the first level be taken for the spell in question. Due to further special training with this spell, it can be memorized in a slot 2 levels lower then normal.

Greater Spell Mastery Feat
This feat requires at least Adept level skill with a particular spell. This is the final form of the spell Mastery Feat, and as such requires the first and second levels be taken for the spell in question. Due to further special training with this spell, it can be memorized in a slot 3 levels lower then normal. As an added bonus, the person training this feat gets a permanent one point improvement to their casting stat thanks to all the experience gained. This feat can be taken only once.


edit - I'd like to say that most trainers of spells would in my mind be able to train the first level with many, though considerably fewer, able to teach the second level. Final level trainers would probably be very rare.

[Theleus]

Anyone have any opinions, either good or bad? It's been more then 24 hours and not even gotten one comment.

[Athon]

Theleus,

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I must ask that you be patient when you post a suggestion or any thread in general. Just because it hasn't been replied to in one day doesn't mean it's not going to be replied to. People have lives and other matters they may need to attend to.

As for your feat suggestion, I am not in favor of it. Being able to memorize a ninth-level spell in the sixth slot and on up? Now you can cast it 25+ times instead of 5 or 6 times. Part of playing a spell-casting class, especially for offensive mages, is management of spells and what to choose. Obviously, spells in higher slots are better than spells in lower slots. These feats effectively would turn spell-casting classes into one-spell casters instead of the variety that they should be using.

Also, spell mastery already exists in 3.5ed and reads as follows:

Code: Select all

Benefit
Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier that you already know. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook. 

In summary, I don't think you're going to see many more spellcasting feats in FK unless they already exist somewhere in 3.5ed rules, I believe almost all of these feats are already coded. However, feel free to search source books and epics feats and see if you can find one there that might apply to FK.

[Theleus]

I just made up a set of feats that I thought sounded really cool. Sure, most of the parts of this mud are based on tabletop, but I'm sure that there are some original ideas too. I don't believe it's overpowered because we only get seven feats, so for the convenience of casting one spell three levels lower one has to spend three of their precious feat points.

[Athon]

You're right, sometimes things outside tabletop make their way in. But these things needs to be considered with balance in mind.

In FK, you don't have to wait a day to cast your spells again - you just meditate, wait a few minutes, and you're back in action. That already nullifies some of the need for this feat. Plus, imagine priests or mages running around with 25 9th-level spells memorized. For three feats, they've exponentially expanded their power plus receive a bonus to their casting stat?

Let's look at a more 'realistic' possibility. Fireball is a 3rd level spell, at GM it should be 10-60 damage (10d6, an average of 35 damage per fireball). Empower spell (+50% damage) and maximize spell (do full damage) add 5 spell slots. Currently, you can memorize around 10-15 of these powerful fireballs (since you can only memorize them in the 8th and 9th levels with the feats). These fireballs are doing 90 damage per round. With these feats, you now allow fireball to be casted in 6th and 7th slots too. More than a quarter of the mage's spells are now these powerful fireballs dealing 90 damage per round. Mages will now be monotonous killing machines for a mere 3 feats?

Perhaps a feat adding another spell slot would be more 'balanced' (this exists already as an epic feat, see improved spell capacity) but this is like empowering a spell for free.

[Selveem]

Theleus, while it might not seem that way to you, you must always try to think about how something like that can be abused.

Sure, at first glance I'm not going to say it doesn't sound cool, but immediately after I think: Oh, no, this is REALLY bad. As Athon suggests, there's a _lot_ of room for abuse. Especially when you consider that his concern is only the tip of the iceberg.

Consider the can of worms this opens up: these spells are now castable with multiple other feats applied to them in a way that was probably never considered in D&D; any caster can now cast up to an 8th level spell with permanent spell on. To me, that just sounds broken. Spells like this immediately come to mind:

Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4

Now, to be fair not all of these exist on the MUD (yet?), but there are other spells that normally are different in D&D that can't be abused with permanent spell like those four (like True Sight and Blade Barrier in FK). These are only ones that can be made ridiculous with Permanent Spell.. Imagine offensive, high-level spells that can be twin-spelled: Earthquake, Fire Storm, Word of Chaos, Harm, Dictum, Polar Ray, Flensing, Incendiary Cloud, Mass Hold Person, Finger of Death, Monster Summon, Disintegrate, Circle of Death, Acid Fog, Chain Lightning, Conjure Greater Elemental, Drown, etc. There are countless combinations that can arise from having such high-powered feats on FK as well as D&D.

[Necalli]

It also conflicts with metamagical feats. This feat would essentially lower the level of a spell, then you would be able to modify them with metamagical feats - making spells more powerful than intended - which would cause a need for the metamagical feats to be revised again to accommodate Spell Mastery. It could be done, but doing so would weaken the metamagic feats for other wizards who choose not to take Spell Mastery Feats.

Though, I do think it is a good idea. Perhaps:

Spell Mastery Feat
A wizard with this feat can memorize spells that they have mastered without a spellbook.

For the improved and greater versions of the feat, the level would drop a rank - master to expert, expert to adept - and maybe some other perk could be thrown in for the improved/greater versions, because FK used to have Spell Mastery, but they removed it because not many wizard PC's ever took the feat, and you have to think, back then wizards got 11 base feats and could use glory to buy more. Now its 7 base +4 bonus feats(metamagic only) and there isn't a glory system allowing you to get more than that.

EDIT: Eheh, in the time it took me to post this, it seems that two others already came to the same conclusion. Great minds think alike.

[Nysan]

Spell Mastery Feat
A wizard with this feat can memorize spells that they have mastered without a spellbook.

Reminds me of a feat idea I heard once...

Spell research mastery: Allows the priest/wizard/ranger/bard to cast one spell without need for components. Spell is selected at time feat is trained (much like current focus feats).

Sounded great at first, because the person talking about it was looking at it from a healer RP and thought casting raise dead without components would be useful. Then I brought up damaging spells, like disintegrate, and the idea fell apart due to abuse and balance concerns.

[Theleus]

Spell Mastery Feat
A wizard with this feat can memorize spells that they have mastered without a spellbook.

Reminds me of a feat idea I heard once...

Spell research mastery: Allows the priest/wizard/ranger/bard to cast one spell without need for components. Spell is selected at time feat is trained (much like current focus feats).

Sounded great at first, because the person talking about it was looking at it from a healer RP and thought casting raise dead without components would be useful. Then I brought up damaging spells, like disintegrate, and the idea fell apart due to abuse and balance concerns.

People are missing the point. Not every spell would be trainable up to the third feat level. We could balance things out by limiting those twinkish spells to only level. Example, lets say are an evoker and use Metamagic feats to boost magic missiles level by five, and you use your level 6,7,8, and 9 slots. But lets say you like using Stone Body, which is level 8. By applying this feat three times you can cast it in a level 5 slot, leaving one slot more open for powered up magic missile.

[Eltsac]

Well... for all the reasons already given, I think those feat are indead too powerful.

What I would love to see is some kind of mastery feat you could only take for spells you already know at master level, that would allow you to cast it as a spontaneous cast like cleric does with healing spells.
Wouldn't allow you to cast more of the spell or make it more powerful
would allow you to memorize other general use spells and use spontenaous cast for your favorite attack spell
*dreams*

Spell research mastery: Allows the priest/wizard/ranger/bard to cast one spell without need for components. Spell is selected at time feat is trained (much like current focus feats).

Sounded great at first, because the person talking about it was looking at it from a healer RP and thought casting raise dead without components would be useful. Then I brought up damaging spells, like disintegrate, and the idea fell apart due to abuse and balance concerns.

maybe it could be less abused if it only removes the 'unused' and 'multiple uses' components of the spell? components used at each cast stay? Don't know, I don't have a list of spells and components in my head.

El

[Theleus]

(I'd like to say that most trainers of spells would in my mind be able to train the first level with many, though considerably fewer, able to teach the second level. Final level trainers would probably be very rare.)

This feat idea would resemble weapon focus in that even if a mobile had it, they could only teach it for spells that it knows. A person couldn't walk up to just any mob with the feat and start typing: Train Greater Spell Mastery 'twinkish spell'

This way immortals could control which spells could progress to which level, so I don't think it can be abused.

[Eltsac]

I understand it can be limited to certain spells as the trainers can be limited.

Thing is... I don't know... but weapon focus gives +1 hit.
Your feat increases the number of times you can memorize the spell... seems far more powerful too me.
+1 seems a lot to me... so +3 seems far too much
plus it allows to use more metamagic on the spell as it is lower level

It's a personnal feeling... there is no number to say it's too powerful... just a feeling. It may be wrong.

El.

[Theleus]

I understand it can be limited to certain spells as the trainers can be limited.

Thing is... I don't know... but weapon focus gives +1 hit.
Your feat increases the number of times you can memorize the spell... seems far more powerful too me.
+1 seems a lot to me... so +3 seems far too much
plus it allows to use more metamagic on the spell as it is lower level

It's a personnal feeling... there is no number to say it's too powerful... just a feeling. It may be wrong.

El.

Well then this then. Spells prepared by the effect cannot be boosted by any other metamagic feats. This could be explained in character like this: the intense concentration required to cast below the spells noramal level makes it impossible to combine with other metamagic feats.

[Nysan]

Sorry, I was misunderstood. I was talking about the quoted post in my comment mostly. The only part related to the OP was good ideas often fall apart when you think about balance and abuse opportunities, like disintegrate without components.

[Theleus]

Sorry, I was misunderstood. I was talking about the quoted post in my comment mostly. The only part related to the OP was good ideas often fall apart when you think about balance and abuse opportunities, like disintegrate without components.

I see. Yes, abuse is a factor to be taken into consideration, but with the specified limitations I put forth, I think that in my feat idea there's no room for abuse, and since this feat cannot be used in conjunction with other metamagic feats, metamagics shouldn't need a complete overhaul to implement these.

[Athon]

Theleus,

If something like this is going to be put forth into a game, you need to explain why it is needed, not simply add limitations to our counter-examples.

Tabletop is already exceedingly balanced around the spell casting system and spell slots. Moving spells into lower spell slots make them overpowered just by doing that. The metamagic feats are already in place, which allow you turn a lower level spell into a "higher" level spell.

I like that you're looking for a way to expand gameplay, but I feel these feats will just make mages and priests one-trick ponies. Spell casters are supposed to memorize a diverse variety of spells in order to maximize their potential; I feel this will just cause casters to focus on a single spell even more so (especially since you're devoting 3 feats to a single spell).

In summary, Theleus, you need to provide rationale for why this would make FK better, with respect to balance and fair gameplay. Adding limitations to help curb abuse is important, but that's more of a minor detail than a major one.