Paralysis while affected by freedom of movement

[Selveem]

I could have sworn I reported this issue, but I can't find my post nor do I see any email with regards to it, so please forgive if this is a double-post on the first two issues; the third issue had never been reported until this post.

It appears there are three issues:
1: Paralysis occurs even if the Ghast doesn't strike.
2: Paralysis occurs too often (likely Saves issue).
3: Freedom of Movement does not appear to protect vs paralysis (suspect because affect is called 'ghast claw'?).

You narrowly avoid a ghast's claw.
You are paralysed by the dark energy from a ghast's claws!

A ghast's claw stabs your left leg.
You are paralysed by the dark energy from a ghast's claws!

<93%hp 97m 99%mv> resist
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spells and other magical affects
Affected: Water breathing for a long time
Affected: Freedom of movement for a while
Affected: Heroes feast for a long time
Affected: Valiance for a short time
Affected: Ghast claw for a very short time
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saving Throw Modifiers
Fear: +20 Fire: +3 Mind affecting: +1
Paralysis: +2
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The DC for avoiding a Ghoul/Ghast's paralysis = 15.

Even without spells, my character should only get paralyzed on a roll of 1 because I naturally have 17 fortitude. On a 20-sided die, equals a 5% chance, which is not reflecting what occurs during combat with a Ghast/Ghoul on FK.

Additionally, I'm being paralyzed even when I've got Freedom of Movement as the log above shows.

[Isolrem]

My lvl 41 character is almost guaranteed to die 1v1 against a ghast. I may be lucky enough to get enough time to flee, but for the most part I will be eternally stunned, so the DC on those claws must be 50 or something.

Good way to encourage nobody goes into UM alone, though >_<

[Brar]

[quote="Selveem"
The DC for avoiding a Ghoul/Ghast's paralysis = 15.[/quote]

I'm not saying anything is not broken or anything, but calculating DC is a buit more complicated, it is in fact :
DC = 10 + 1/2HD + Stat modifier which would translate FK wise in DC = 10 + (1/2lvl)/2.5 + Integer ((STAT - 10)/2)
So it is DC15 for standard 4HD Ghast but as soon as you make them advanced it will change and evolve.

[Raona]

The "spell" that performs this paralysis ('ghast claw') IS coded to have a difficulty of 15. There may be something wrong with the mechanics, but it'll take some time to test. That the affect isn't prevented by appropriate spells is a definite issue, though, but it seems a broader one...so there too, I'll do more testing and then Bugzilla it! Thanks for the reports...I, too, swear I recall something else along these lines, by the way.

[Raona]

Ok, here's what I have so far:
1) You have to save against ghast claw/bite even if the attack misses you (you win the attack roll). I think that is in error - it would only make sense if the logic was the bite/claw made contact with you, but your armour stopped it, and even then this is a disease-like affect and would seem to require skin contact. So change 1 is that "spell" should not act if the attack roll is not a hit.
2) Freedom of Movement does not protect the target from paralysis via ghast claw. I'm not sure if that is right or wrong. The d20 description of the spell states

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

Since it specifies magic, and this seems to be a spell-like ability, but non-magical, I'm not sure that freedom of movement should prevent paralysis from a ghast claw. Arguments to the contrary, other canon sources I should consult for clarification?
3) It looks to me like the basic save process is working correctly. It checks for a save against fortitude. DC is set to 15. You get your roll plus your fortitude save number. However, it looks like the valiance spell is off kilter. It modifies "save vs. paralysis," which I think is an outdated parameter. In any case, that spell does not seem to help against ghast claw. It's unclear what it does against hold person and the like, but it does seem to do something (just not transparently).
4) There are some odd cases with bites, where it looks like the PC makes the save, but then is affected anyway. I don't see the pattern to it, but it happens.

So: There are definitely some issues here. I'm not sure how to fix them, because I can't see the save engine and can't modify the inner workings of the spell/combat engine that decides when to "cast" the "ghast claw" spell. I could change the affect of Valiance, but I don't think changing it to boost fortitude saves is the correct approach. In short, this is messy!

I will work on one aspect at a time, starting with the fact the ghasties make you have to save even when they miss you. (Ghouls do the same thing: this seems a general problem with "spell-like ability" attacks. However, many races that should have them, don't. They generally seem to be done with code on the individual monsters [e.g. Dire Spider]...and those never seem to hit, there's not even a save against them.) Perhaps one or the other side of this is a coding aberration.

Submitted spell-like attack even on miss as Bugzilla # 957

[Selveem]

You're misreading the text of Freedom of Movement. It says: "even under the influence of magic," meaning "including magical affects," not "only under magical affects." For instance, of someone places manacles on you and you are afflicted by Freedom of Movement, you will automatically win the escape artist check.

[Raona]

Re: Freedom of Movement - you've convinced me! That's up next.

Bug 957, relating to issue 1, has been squashed. These special attacks will now only trigger on a hit by the attacking creature. I think that leaves some outstanding issues, but if you see they have been resolved, please let me know.

Next up for this report: Freedom of Movement should be expanded to block the 'ghast bite' and 'ghast claw' spells. Any others anyone's aware of? (Other cases where the "Freedom of Movement" spell does not do what it should?)

[Selveem]

Any others anyone's aware of? (Other cases where the "Freedom of Movement" spell does not do what it should?)

I don't know for certain if it's coded to protect against hold person, hold monster, shadow binding, web, stun (the skill as well as stunning affects [example would be power word stun], (slow isn't coded yet, is it?), etc. Are you able to check that for us?

[Selveem]

Ah, irresistible dance, too.

[Selveem]

I hate having to do this, but I looked up some historical data and found a reference to Wizard's "The Sage" who said this about the Freedom of Movement spell:

Does the freedom of movement spell protect a character from being stunned? The argument is that "stun" is a condition that hinders movement.

Freedom of movement is one of those tricky spells that has a lot of open-ended wording that might lead to confusion. The spell becomes much more manageable if you just look at it as something that ignores any physical impediment to movement or actions. If you assign this restriction, then it makes sense that freedom of movement works against solid fog, slow, and web; each of these spells puts something in the way of the creature that stops them from moving/acting, or specifically targets the creature's physical movement.

With this interpretation, spells and effects such as hold person that apply a mental impediment to taking any action would not be bypassed by freedom of movement. These are mental affects, and freedom of movement only helps you bypass physical effects (such as solid fog) or effects that specifically impede just your movement, not spells that stop you from taking any action, as hold
person does.

In the same vein, freedom of movement would not work on someone who had been turned to stone by a medusa's gaze or be a flesh to stone spell.

To answer the original question, being stunned is one of those mental effects and would normally deny a creature the ability to act at all. Since it's not specifically focused on just impeding movement, and it is a mental, not physical impediment, freedom of movement would not help a stunned creature to act or move normally.

This interpretation of freedom of movement may make it easier to adjudicate the effects of the spell, but it is also more restrictive. As always, it will ultimately be up to the Dungeon Master to make the best call as he sees fit for his campaign and play session.

It makes things simple, but it also greatly decreases its use. The higher level version of the spell, Freedom, is duration instantaneous and thus is useless against spells such as protection against spells such as Hold Person and Power Word Stun for yourself. Heal, on the other hand, does since it can be still-spelled.

[Nylo]

While fighting undead hounds in the westgate circus, I noticed I was still being paralyzed by a successful bite attack, even with freedom of movement. According to srd,, this should prevent any sort of movement hindrance, and specifically mentions paralysis.

[Raona]

Sure enough. Did my best to put this in (except against Time Stop - does that sound right?).

This will need some extensive testing on the testport before it comes up live, it required a lot of changes.

[Tarven]

Yeah, Time Stop is described as hyper speeding up the caster, as opposed to actually paralyzing anyone.

[Selveem]

Known issue, I thought?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=13398&p=85402&hilit=ghoul#p85402

[Raona]

Known issue, I thought?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=13398&p=85402&hilit=ghoul#p85402

Indeed...but new stuff comes in faster than I can keep up to it, and periodically somehow the new post listing gets reset...so if I don't get to a post before that happens, I only catch it on the rare occasions I'm able to catch up on new posts and start in on unread ones. In other words, there are a lot of orphaned valid reports waiting for love! I didn't have the power to (attempt to) fix this sort of thing myself when that post first went in...but now I do.

But thanks for pointing out the overlap, I'll join the reports...one less thing to catch up on.

While on the subject: Right now, the number of things that actually get fixed doesn't increase with the number of reports. It's fixing power, not knowledge of the issues, that's limiting. So please don't hastily file a bug report, do what you can to be sure it's really a bug and do what you can to describe it fully. Thanks.

Edit: Added Irresistable Dance to the list of spells Freedom of Movement blocks/cancels. However, stun is not included, and I agreed with the ruling above even before reading it, as stun is a more general loss of one's faculties, and not just the motor skills part of the brain. Your brain actually can't issue any orders, it's not that you aren't free to move...you are too stunned to decide you want to.

I'm hoping that (after a good two hours hacking at this one!) it is fully fixed. Any remaining issues here? (That is, stuff that's broken that I've not said is now fixed? You won't see these changes on the game port for a while yet, they need testing first. This was my first really extensive edit of the skill/spell files.)

[Selveem]

Thanks, Raona.

One thing I'd like to address though is that I believe by the interpretation of The Sage, Irresistible Dance is not negated by Freedom of Movement spell. Irresistible Dance is a compulsion; your mind has been magically convinced that you should dance. Your body is not being hindered in any way physically.