"Animal" tongue; what is it?

[Selveem]

*Please read before voting!*

"Animal" language doesn't exist in D&D (that I remember). From what I understand, Animal language is actually equivalent to "Druidic" which has nothing to do with speaking to or understanding animals. As the language suggests, it is _only_ known by Druids (but in FK, for some reason, it was extended to Rangers).

Apparently there are currently no quests or set standard as to how one is to use this language nor any quest suggesting its proper usage. I've seen it spoken by PCs before and other times, only acted as understood by PCs.

So, I'm putting it to a vote as to how we think it should be handled (and properly roleplayed):

• 1: It is the understanding of each individual animal's nature and its body language. This would apply to any animal of 2 or less intelligence score (horses, dogs, etc.). The language should be understood, but not actually spoken.
• 2: This language should be considered an extraordinary ability shared by Druids and Rangers as part of their special training. It can be both understood and spoken.

As a side note, code does not currently hinder one from 'speaking Animal.'

[Brar]

Now, I voted 2.

I see it as a substitute for "Speak with Animals" spell btoh rangers and druids get at level 1 (and Bards at level 3), yet having it permanent is a little bonus which could be very well removed and replaced by the adequate spell.

But I see it more as empathy than actual wording, people who do not have any skills in it may be better to see an echo like "Brar makes stranges moves and sounds", like Thieves cant for example.

[Eltsac]

With Loren, I use animal as my only language when shapechanged to an animal and I tend to use it sometimes when in my human form too.

I see this language this way : in real life, when some people study and try to understand some animal species, they spend a lot of time with them and they often try to mimic some of their gesture and sounds to communicate (well it's easier with monkeys than with fishes, it's depending on the race, but it's the idea). Other communicate ways might be in the behavior (how you look at the animal, if you look at it in the eyes or not, if you move slowly or fast, with aggressive gestures or not, if you move toward the animal or backward, ...)

To me, animal in fk is a language gathering all those communication means, allowing to communicate in both ways with animals. Of course this language is not as rich as a normal language so I won't try to make philosophy speaking animal.

Having it coded as a normal language make it easier to use and communicate with : you don't need to have a good knowledge of the animal oocly to emote the right gestures and sounds to communicate. You speak animal as a normal language, but it is in fact a rich set of sounds and gestures.
You can add some emote when speaking animal though, to add at the rp.

I'm not sure if it's how this language is supposed to be.
If so, maybe the echoes should be changed to XXX gestures '....' rather than XXX says '...' (like for thieves language)

El

[Selveem]

I'm not trying to sway the vote either way; I'm asking because I'll be updating the help files on languages and making them a bit more clear.

I would say, however, that it sounds to me more like both of you are suggesting that you're not actually speaking the language of the animal, but rather just communicating with it in a way a normal human with no class could.

It's no different than a dog trainer looking at a dog and seeing that it's howls, whimpering, whining, growling, or barking and deciphering what it is attempting to communicate, not speaking back in howls, growls, barks, whimpering, or whining as an extraordinary ability might suggest.

Either way, I just want to get a consensus before the help is updated to reflect the gen pop decision.

[Anguin]

In second edition, Gnomes had the ability to speak with burrowing mammals; "some Rock Gnomes are able to communicate with burrowing mammals via a basic language of grunts, snorts, and signs." In third edition, this innate ability became a spell-like ability that could be used once per day.

However, I strongly favor the idea that all animals have their own little ideas and lives, and only a select few - like rangers and druids - ever figure out how to communicate with them. Communication that works both ways.

[Brar]

Well, I see it of a complete comprehension of the animal, with no ambiguous thought possible. but it is more than just barking and sniffing, like how Saurials (in FR) communicate, sounds are 1% of the saurials communication, 99% are pheromones.

A "normal human" would only guess more than know what the naimal is trying to say or ect, for me you can even ask question to an animal and gets an answer (in the limit of its intelligence of course, don't ask him to make a difference between two humans or to give them names). Like the "Speak with animals" spell suggest.

But perhaps it would be better to remove it as a trainable language and turns it into a spell instead, a spell that would in fact makes you GM at animals, but where magic would explain that you are emitting pheromones and making noises your corpse would be physically incapable of doing. (Much like Tongues spell allow you to speak Saurial by creating such pheromones like I outlined above).

[Gorwin]

I would go with the second option as well. I've always understood it to work more or less like the spell. Also i believe when speaking it one is trying to mimic the sounds, so if your with others who dont speak it they would think your growling at the dog. Also i could be wrong but i believe this language is also available in game to gnomes, not just rangers and druids, specifically forest gnomes.

[Grenwyn]

Don't rock gnomes start out with Animal at GM?

[Eltsac]

Don't rock gnomes start out with Animal at GM?

Not sure for new ones but my old gnome has animal at GM

El

[Selveem]

I have no idea; I'm shocked even Rangers get the language. I'd be appalled if Gnomes also get the language. Should Centaurs and Wemics have it too? What about Wood Elves?

[Eltsac]

gnomes have a special relation to animals :

Prior to the birth of a child, gnome parents select what they believe will be an appropriate childhood pet. The pet, itself a newborn, is given to the child at birth. This bonds them for the life of the pet.
Gnome babies learn to speak the language of their birth pet in much the same way as twins are said to share a special language. However, this bond does not survive childhood. As a gnome child ages and gains mastery of the gnome language, communication on this empathetic level becomes exhausting. Adult gnomes can communicate with such an animal for only a few minutes a day.
In the eyes of a gnome, animals are people too. The close relationship gnomes have with nature rivals that of the elves. Gnomes befriend their animal neighbors and often invite them to live indoors in exchange for service. Cages, leashes or restrains of any kind are barbaric and distasteful.

El

[Selveem]

Yeah, that's referring to the spell-like ability they get to use once per day. That shouldn't be an automatic language.

[Brar]

Yes, it is based on the old 2nd edition where it was a language when spell-like abilities did not exists.

In 3rd ED, they changed it to a spell ("Speak with animals") and to a spell like ability for gnomes.

Perhaps we could change it to a spell that gives you animal language for a time, and remove the animal language as a trainable one, but is it really worth the effort (changing lots and lots of trainer to remove that ability, creating a new spell with a new mechanism, ect..).
All that only to remove something that is purely for RP and can hardly be abused, does it really change something to have it permanent ?

I have no real opinion if it is good or not, just don't care very much for that...

Brar

[Selveem]

That's a topic for another discussion altogether.

[Nysan]

I have no idea what classes or races has access to this language, so I am only going to look at from experience, i.e. my druid.

I have always considered it along the lines of the second option, a special, spell-like language granted to the druid through training and devotion to their deity that allows them to understand and express basic emotions and ideas to natural wildlife. Not complex ideas, but simple things that the animal would express like "Sticky plants that way. Fuzzy food there. I like fuzzy food."

I was under the impression we coded as a language way back when to keep things simple and because we had limited 'ability' types back then. Of course, this whole theory is blown out of the water if it is trainable by many races/classes...

[Selveem]

I'll leave this up for another week or so. If you plan to vote and just haven't had the chance yet, please try to do so before a week is up. After that's over, I'll cast my single vote and begin the helpfile. In the case that the result evens up more, I'll let it ride another week or two.

Thank you all for your votes and time in reading!

[Orplar]

Animal has a place as a language in FK for druids, and perhaps to a lesser degree for rangers.

Being able to understand how an animal feels via body language ect.. I believe is part of Animal Empathy?
A different skill.

Looking for clarification so I can make a proper vote.

[Selveem]

You mean Wild Empathy. That's this:

A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.

The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a -4 penalty on the check.

Wild Empathy is the reason why Druids can 'claim' untame animals (an extraordinary ability, as denoted by the "(ex)" next to it). I don't know if Rangers can, but I suppose they should be able to. Either way, it's not really used for 'getting to understand a creature more' but more as a tool to avoid somewhat hostile creatures and/or gain additional animal companions.

[Orplar]

So Wild Empathy is the equivalent of Animal Empathy in game?

[Selveem]

That's really a different subject and should have its own thread, but to answer it anyhow: Kinda. Animal Empathy is a bit more hardcore though. More like a full-on, permanent charm spell in FK.

But I'm more asking how people feel the 'animal' tongue should be RPed.