New PK rules discussion.

[Zorinar]

Hello I couldn't find the offical post for the new PK rules so I thought I would make a post here. Sorry if there is an official post out there.

Just a couple of discussion points I want to bring up for evaluation:
The following line leads to my first discussion topic:

All combat maneuvers (skils such as disarm, ..bash, stun, etc.) and all spells are allowed except those spells that cause instant-death (e.g. disintegrate, power word kill).

Before I begin, I want to point out that I have little invested in this, Zorinar does not use death spells in combat against players. Anyway, here are some thoughts.....

I am a mixed bag on this rule. On one hand I understand that these spells end the fight right then and there and dying from one cast is extremely annoying. I have been subject to disintegrate spells and it usually only takes two of them to do me in. But I would also like to point out that Jarris's Harm spells do even more damage than domain ranked disintegrate spells do to me. So, following that line of logic, banning some spells would also beg the question, well why aren't other spells banned too? How about a hold spell? If you cast a hold spell on the other, the fight is done. That is, in my opinion, even more annoying that getting hit with a death spell. To have to sit there and watch the other person slowly kill you while you can do nothing at all is very frustrating and the result is the same as if they cast phantasmal killer at you.

On another line of thought: the death spells are why the wizard is feared and why you should think twice before wanting to fight one. That fact can be a role play point in it's own right. I guess in the end, I feel that this limits what a wizard CAN do with spells and spells are what define them.

Getting hit with a death spell does kind of end the role play but.. the roleplay should have been played out before you ever get to the fight in question.


Secondly, I have never done this but suddenly after reading the new rules I wondered about it.... specifically this:

Remember that PCs revert to the lowest killmode of any PC involved and do not abuse this fact (e.g. a wizard setting his killmode ....to spar while fighting a ranger in order to slow the ranger's melee is not acceptable).

Suddenly I wonder why it is not acceptable for a wizard to enter killmode spar in the fight. The logic is the following: When a wizard and a fighter type engage in combat, the mud automatically choose the melee speed which is much faster than a wizard could keep up with by hand typing spells to cast. The wizard is forced into the melee combat. Is this not favoring the fighter over the caster? Usually two rounds go by before I get my first spell off. What if the caster does not want to fight with weapons but only cast spells. In D&D the casters cant engage in melee while casting anyway. Now some people use this to an even greater advantage against a wizard. They know that if they disarm a wizard, the mud still forces them to attack with fists and now they get attacks of opportunity against the wizard when ever they throw a mud automated punch each round.

Another thought: lets say someone puts up a fireshield and you don't want to hit it.. .so you stand back and cast spells at them? Kill mode spar would suffice. As I understand it, the current method used is for the caster to wield a weapon they have no training in to ensure they miss their hits. Kind of lame and it's somewhat playing to the code but I have seen it.

Why not killmode spar? It does slow the fighter down but the caster isn't benefiting from increased speed either, they are only getting to be able to pull the fight down to a human speed. They need to supply a target with every spell they cast in this mode which requires extra typing anyway. (unless its an area spell)

For the most part I see these rules as trying to keep a wizard in check here on the mud compared to the fighter type classes. I understand that wizards are powerful here and I understand the concern. However lets not forget the cleric class which becomes only ever more powerful with any rule that limits wizards abilities.

Anyway those are just some thoughts for the day. Have a good night.

Zorinar

[Dovan]

Here's a problem with spar. The melee becomes quite hampered as they have to watch their rounds cease, type MURDER all over again, as well juggle their actions of kick, punch, disarm, etc. This pause also allows the caster a free breath of not being hit so their concentration check has an easier time of passing. It's that full frontal constant throttling that gives a melee even the slimmest of chances against a wizard or priest. So yeah, forcing the melee into spar while you get a .5 seconds more of cast time is a HUGE difference in the fight.

[Melusine]

I would hope Spar is still acceptable if both parties prefer it? If they would rather rp out the fight? I've seen some of the best fights go down this way, and have enjoyed watching them in non-blur speed. My two cents.

[Selveem]

Yeah, I agree with Zorinar here. Let's add spells like Hold Person/Monster into that list of things that can't be used in PK!

[Harroghty]

Melusine: Yes. Amended to clarify that.

1. Killmodes. Killmodes stun, spar, or nofight are the preferred killmodes
for all PvP. Killmode kill is allowed. Remember that PCs revert to the lowest
killmode of any PC involved and do not abuse this fact (e.g. a wizard setting
his killmode to spar while fighting a ranger in order to slow the ranger's
melee is not acceptable). Any proven instances of this tactic will be punished.

[Rictinta]

I think hold can be used in the roleplay before a PK situation in order to hold a character there to force the roleplay situation effectively. But I agree, it is quite unfair to use it during the actual battle. Fighters only have the ability to bash and stun the caster, but as soon as we attack them again, the stun wears off. It is not the same with hold. So I agree, that that spell should be banned during the actual fight.

[Briek]

Most of the melee skills rely on the fact that the combat is fluid I mean...

you disarm a person then attack quickly you don't disarm them then wait 5 seconds so they can
attack back and cast a spell at you.

I say it's swings and roundabouts and that the system of combat itself doesn't offer huge advantages to any one class. Don't get me wrong, some classes skillsets do make them more
powerful than others but that is a completely seperate issue.

I think hold can be used in the roleplay before a PK situation in order to hold a character there to force the roleplay situation effectively. But I agree, it is quite unfair to use it during the actual battle. Fighters only have the ability to bash and stun the caster, but as soon as we attack them again, the stun wears off. It is not the same with hold. So I agree, that that spell should be banned during the actual fight.

agreed

[Enig]

Let's bear in mind that these rules aren't being made entirely for 1v1 combat which I believe is the key distinction to keep in mind when it comes to paralyzing spells and instant death spells. If you assume more than one person on both sides of the fight than the person who's been held has a chance (decent or otherwise) of either having that enchantment dispelled (via break enchantment, cure paralysis, dispel, etc.) or just having their attacker chased off or killed; so, not quite a death sentence, whereas such measures are obviously ineffective vs. an instant death spell.

It should also generally be kept in mind that in order to try to cast 'hold person/monster/whatever' a wizard has to essentially sacrifice the entire rest of his offense and gamble that his spells won't be interrupted and will defeat their victim's will save, which, given that we now have feats, spells, and items that will increase will saves isn't exactly a sure thing.

I realise it's troublesome from a fighter's perspective to get held and be unable to do anything but I assure you it's equally troublesome as a wizard to have five or six spells in a row interrupted because the game forces any fight to take place at optimal range for whatever melee weapon anyone happens to be holding. Just like a wizard needs a bodyguard to get their spells off properly in combat with a warrior I don't see a problem with requiring a warrior to take a back-up if they want to be safeguarded against the possibility of being paralyzed.

[Briek]

A good point

just brings me back to say again..

I say it's swings and roundabouts

[Moloch]

Pretty sure we can use insta-kill spells now that saves are in, yes? That's the impression I was under, at least.

[Nysan]

No real opinion on this topic. The rarity in which I get into PKs tells me to leave this to more experienced minds. However, I want to point out something...

Insta-death spells were outed for a reason. If we add hold monster/person, why not web, entangle, and other movement restricting spells. If that happens what stops someone from pushing for blind, weaken, bane, curse, poison, or energy drain? Open the door to further restricting spell usage and it is not far to fall until all we have are defensive spells and magic missiles.

Extreme example, yes, but a valid one. Just something to keep in mind as this topic progresses.

[Valenus]

Hey guys

I'm new to this mud but have played a fair share in many others. Sadly I have seen many fall into the offline void forever. One of the first things to anger players into quiting is telling them how to play their character. Wizards have strong spells that can kill the unsuspecting in one hit, boohoo. If you don't want to die in one hit either get a friend or leave the wizard alone. I have witnessed how long it takes to get a wizard to the one-hit kill level. Who ever has invested that much time deserves every bit of that one hit kill. If the wizard needs to go into killmode spar to hold his ground, let him. If the fighter needs to sneak up behind and bash the wizard when he isnt looking, I say let him. Every class has it's weaknesses and strengths, the moment you water everyone down to keep the whiners happy you lose the joy of being able to roleplay freely. I'm sure some of you are worried that if we let wizards one hit kill people that a single wizard could run the map pk-ing everyone in sight. Of course if he did it without reason he could be banned or sticken or what ever it is you do to offenders of the rules. But if he should go pk-ing with proper roleplay I'm sure players would ban together and get their revenge with proper roleplay aswell. In my opinion that would be far more fun than smote-ing each other to death in the waterdeep town square Whats more fun than a large group of online players working together in a pk?

Every class has their skills for a reason, lets use them I say. No need to let them gather dust so the whiny players can annoy the veteran ones without punishment. This is my opinion, I hope no one gets too offended by it :p

[Aveline]

I'm tempted to agree with the new kid there, except for one exception. I don't ever want to see disintegrate being allowed in PK because it destroys the corpse of the other PC and that just is wrong.

Also I agree with Enig. Many many many factors go into whether or not a spell such as the ones we have been discussing will even work. Even more so now that we have all this new fancy smancy coding that I know so little about.

I don't see how those spells are unfair to other players other than the one I already mentioned. You know what you are getting into when you fight a powerful wizard. And Gesine has been one hit killed by a fighter that lopped her head off. I could see the reasons for banning them when there were no saves and such and things weren't working properly, but they are now.

Many of the spells don't even work as they used to. Stone skin used to block all damage until it wore off, and now it doesn't.

I know what I'm getting into when I fight Harroghty, or Falgorn, or Deliwen. If you are fighting a high level character it is a very good chance that a lot of the spells won't even affect them.

I didn't really want to get into a big spiel about this, but I'll just leave it at that I agree with many of the sentiments above.

[Kaaurk]

I have to agree with Aveline and Valenus if you are picking a fight with a wizard you better be expecting spells that could hurt you or kill you. I've always believed we shouldn't weaken classes just to apease people or make things fair. Life isn't fair RP and get over it.

[Brar]

All I have to say is that if you're a fighter and go fight a wizard without getting magical protections then you deserve to be instakill for your stupidity....

And every spell have its not so hard to get counter.

[Eltsac]

I tend to agree with people here in not limiting spells and skills in pk (but disintegrate so you won't loose your corpse).

El

[Selveem]

Some spells are still not coded with proper resistances. Additionally, protection spells do not last very long. Especially those that are brewable. The talk about a high level fighter being immune to most of those is BS. Phantasmal Killer, a low-ish level one-hit kill spell still can take down a max-level fighter (I've personally witnessed it) by a low level mob. If a low level mob can do it, a high level wizard can probably do it much better.

I appreciate the comments and thoughts, (especially since they differ greatly from my own,) but most wizards seem to rely on those spells not just against mobs but as their little 'ace in the pocket.' It's easy to claim, 'well you can just bash the wizard!' but unless you've actually played a fighter who relied on bash, I don't think that counterpoint should even be mentioned for discussion. Bash works very, very little. Even if it did, it only hits for a single round of attacks. Normally, that'd be enough time to take down a wizard with a properly-feat-ed fighter, however in FK since we have more health than in D&D that crap ain't gonna be happening. Much less, with spells like Stoneskin, Vampiric Touch, Polymorph, Shield, etc. to keep the wizard from being hit.

Granted, I duel far more than the average player, so I'm probably a lot more experienced (and capable to counter-point) than most players.

• High saves jewelry/armors aren't in game.
• Concentration checks are easily avoided by casting outside of the combat round even without killmode nofight/spar.
• Casters already have a pseudo-defensive casting built into the combat engine (they don't take attacks of opportunity every time they cast).
• Protective spells vs insta-death wane quickly (even if they didn't, any semi-capable wizard will have a few dispels on them at all times).
• Fighter skills (such as bash) are highly unreliable and very difficult to increase.
• Bash can only be used once per enemy. Even if it lands, you don't get an automatic attack of opportunity when they 'get back up.'
• Feats such as Combat Reflexes are not on FK; only 1 maximum attack of opportunity per round.

All in all, to say 'well you shouldn't be messing with a wizard/priest' is BS. A high level fighter, rogue, bard, druid.. anything, should command respect.

[Aveline]

They do all demand respect I think, except when you continually take things away from them. And I do not think anyone said that high level fighters were immune to... only that they are harder to get with those spells. If someone said that they were immune, or if I said it, I'm too lazy to look, they only meant it just happens so rarely that they might as well be immune. Yes it can be done, but the stars must all be set just right. As little as bash works for you in a PvP is as little as a insta-death spell will work for a wizard in one. Having a couple of High level fighters I do know about how difficult it is to get a bash or something like that in. The spells do work, have worked many times, but don't all the time or even often. And it is even more difficult if fighting a talented fighter, especially when they get five mind rattling hits in a round.

Wizards are very powerful, and those spells are awful to encounter. But I think with all the things that must be in place for one of those spells to get in an insta-death balances them out. Normally when you get them to work, they don't even insta-kill they just do damage.

I'd be more scared to go up against a wizard with another wizard, than to use a fighter to fight a wizard. Just me, but I can't think of a time when I've fought a wizard in a PvP as a warrior and lost. I almost always get creamed when using a wizard except when the person was too low a level to really even be thinking about messing with me.

I think if you do not want to get your backside handed to you, you shouldn't really be messing with any high level character. I'm not the best in a PK situation just because I do not draw myself into that often, but I have enough. And I'm fairly certain that any equally leveled warrior that came to fight Gesine one on one would have a pretty good chance of besting her with or without insta death spells. She would probably win some as well but I think she would probably lose just as many. Now, if she had meat shields that would be a different story.

[Brar]

Now, one thing to also take into consideration is the setting Fk is based on.

The most powerful "mortals" in the FR are wizards and clerics, end of the line.

That may sucks or whatever, but that's how it is.
There is practically no way for any fighter to compete in term of raw power with any wizard and higher the level goes, higher the difference goes.
I mean, wizards can make earthquake and fireballs, crumble tower and destroy minds with a thought... yet a wizard caught offguard and unprepared is easy game even for a low level fighter.

I'm not speaking about the game here, only about the settings our gaming world is based on.

I think that is something not to forget if we want to keep the magic of the settings alive and not loose to much for the sake of balancing code fights.
Because for me, in an rp environment, code balance is only to prevent abuse and appease pvpers, what is important in any PKill is to have fun, whatever the finality and the path to get there as long as everyone is having fun then who nobody should care about who wins and who lose the actual fight because all the players won in the end.

But it is again a different of opinion between competitive play and cooperative play.
Some people (I don't point at anyone, speaking generally) sees any game as a competition where they want to be the best, the most powerful, the "winner" and can't imagine having fun if it is not the case.
Some others sees games as a playfield where everyone plays together and have fun, they don't care to "loose" or be the "looser" as long as they have fun.

it is an age old debate and I think it can last forever.
In our litle gaming world, my ideal is to have fun, whatever the means and as long as everyone around is having fun too then go and instakill my characterd, I know a few instance before the spells where actually coded where we roleplayed it marvelously and it ends up in "magic" roleplay experience.
Hell, even disintigrate me if that leads to a good laugh and everyone is having fun, I mean, those object are nothing but pixels on a screen... Who of the long last players have not lost at least once or twice all of their belongings due to resets, crashes and things like that ? Is that dramatic? hell no, just go and find others items, and if you can't find the same one then bad luck for you but it's life and go on with other items. And as one who lost several unique items (I'm not speaking of rename here but items that are coded in an area and that I am the ony one who ever acheived to obtain them) to a purely ooc reason I can tell you I know what I am talking about. (And yes they were very powerful items).

I long for living again PC made adventure stories that ends up as books to be sold in the game, see Betandor's works for example, most of them are actually RPs that occured between players where the imms add their touch at the far end of the roleplay to add a little flavor.
I'm not saying that we don't do that today, but I feel that there is a so high focus on code and fighting with all the new little toys Mask made for us (new score sheets, feats, trades, ect..) that the rp is loosing focus a bit and is sometimes pushed to the side for the sake of numbers and code.

I think that the main rules in any PKill is courtesy and respect and have fun with the RP, nothing more, nothing less.

Brar

[Lathander]

Code: Select all

I have to agree with Aveline and Valenus if you are picking a fight with a wizard you better be expecting spells that could hurt you or kill you. 

But should you expect the wizard to say "WOAH! Wait, time out!!! Killmode spar. Now you just sit there and wait your turn Mr. Uberfighterman while I cast my disintegrate spell." *cast* "OK! Time in!!"