{Leveling/Training}

[Zorinar]

Valenus,
I think your original post got drowned out by the age old argument between grinder-role players and pure role players which I'm sure I'll add to later:) I have been known to grind here and there so I have some insights for you. First, I truly understand the time factor and how it can make one crazy after awhile. However, think about it this way: If you have patience, in 6 months or a year your skills will be better than they are now. Sure it will go up slowly and you won't get instant gratification within a week but you will delight in 6 months or a year when you are able to enter harder places and kill stronger mobs than you can now. That gives one a feeling of satisfaction and a sense of growth. As the time goes by and you continue to get stronger you will appreciate how long it took and how your character has grown. You can role play these changes as your character matures and his or her ability increases. If you want to continue to grow in battle prowess as a fighter, or whatever class you have, you will (as you have already found out) need to grind some skills for it at some point in time. You will find that the grind takes a long time, teaches one divine patience and perhaps at times might encourage one to start screaming due to acquired insanity. Think of it as just another part of your characters development. You can do it solo, you can do it with others you can mix it up, it's all up to you.

Although some people will find some way to disagree, grinding is necessary on FK if you want to explore the stronger areas of the mud, be able to survive when with a group of characters in a stronger area, and it also helps you role play your characters' development. You can try to get into a large group to survive but if that group is not really developed you will all just die, the world is a dangerous place as you know. In fact, my entire grinding mindset came about because I was never strong enough to join others in the places I wanted to visit. I kept dying, I was useless at damage and I was just a burden on the healers for the group. I know it is probably frustrating as a fighter to grind, but imagine it as a wizard. Each of those one hundred + spells needs to be grinded individually! Also, it's hard to find fighters that patiently wait for wizards to meditate for 15 minutes every 10 minutes out, so wizards end up having to conserve spells as much as possible when adventuring with others. Hard to train skills that way unfortunately unless you do it for 7-10 real life years.

If you are a grinder type, don't let anyone make you feel bad about it. You really can role play to your skills. Several gods encourage it in fact. For example, Tempus wants his people strong and ready for battle. I mean, honestly, if you cant even fight a kobold at the height of your career, the battlefield might not be your cup of tea. If you are a wizard type- Mystra encourages wizards becoming as powerful as they can be and as efficient as they can be with magic. (And yes, she encourages the daily use of magic in one's daily life. There seems to be great misunderstanding of Mystra's doctrine here but I'm getting off topic.... sorry.)

Anyway, find some like minded people and you can have some great fun combining training with RP at the same time if you are bored to death of beating on dummies or whatever you are fighting these days. Before you know it, you will be pleased that your hard work and patience payed off for something!

Zor

[Isaldur]

I can think of one temple that has dummies that were purposely built to disarm and help players train grip, and that was put in at least 8 years ago if not 9.

Which is great for the members of that faith, but everyone else is left hung out to dry.

That temple is fairly open to anyone that wants to make use it should their alignment be allowed. For those that cannot, it provides a great example of what can be accomplished by just one person building a training grounds.

So really, the only thing stopping all players from having this is the fact no one has built it yet. That's hardly a difficult thing to overcome for someone that wants it in game, right? I'd think anyone with enough motivation to constructively criticize about anything buildable that is lacking would want to provide a lasting solution to their problem.

[Selveem]

Re: Brar:

You can insist on calling it whatever you want, but in the end the product _is_, in fact, the repetitive use of the skill (thus, grinding). Additionally, usage of skills may be roleplay (I, in fact, believe it is) but others (including a few staff members), do not believe that is so. You suggested I was doing something wrong by not having GMed some skills within that time frame. I'd love you to prove me wrong. I'll see ya in 10.

Re: Isaldur:

That's cool, except I've been waiting to actually be able to build my first area for over 2 years now. I've done the foundations of two separate areas. One couldn't be done because it got over 50 vnums (which is more than your first area can be) and the other was not approved because it wasn't seen as necessary. It is not for a lack of trying. I have attempted multiple avenues of communication to no avail. Sure, I could pester other builders to build the area, but I feel that their creativity should be their motivation, not my suggestion.

[Isaldur]

Re: Brar:

You can insist on calling it whatever you want, but in the end the product _is_, in fact, the repetitive use of the skill (thus, grinding). Additionally, usage of skills may be roleplay (I, in fact, believe it is) but others (including a few staff members), do not believe that is so. You suggested I was doing something wrong by not having GMed some skills within that time frame. I'd love you to prove me wrong. I'll see ya in 10.

I think you should let the staff speak for themselves.

Re: Isaldur:

That's cool, except I've been waiting to actually be able to build my first area for over 2 years now. I've done the foundations of two separate areas. One couldn't be done because it got over 50 vnums (which is more than your first area can be) and the other was not approved because it wasn't seen as necessary. It is not for a lack of trying. I have attempted multiple avenues of communication to no avail. Sure, I could pester other builders to build the area, but I feel that their creativity should be their motivation, not my suggestion.

You aren't the only builder on FK, nor the only one encouraged to build. None of what you have said invalidates the fact that it can be easily solved by someone(or more!) building it. How is it pestering other builders to put out an idea and see if any want to incorporate it? We're doing the same thing by discussing it here.

[Selveem]

I think you should let the staff speak for themselves.

It was a staff member who told me so, thus, they did speak for themselves. I'd appreciate you not attempting to bully the discussion to favor your opinion.

[Brar]

Peace guys, gives a big kiss to each other and cools down, it's just a game after all

However, let's put it frankly, the blind use of repeatingly typing a command again and again without any emote or interaction has nothing to do with RP, it is just a mindless work.

The key in what I said in my first post was the idea of "focusing", if you trained with one other player in disarms / parry / dodge / grip training sessions, and focus on that, then surely your skill would be GM after 10 years, I know at least one fighter who was Master in grip and it did not took her that long. But our training sessions were extensive and involves many players and was big fun. And guess what, she was an Imm...
What is important is to bring fun to others, as long as the others have fun and good interaction, then I really doubt any Imms would say anything beside "Well done", I may be mistaking but that's how I think the friendly bunch we have higher than our head thinks.

I agree that today skills tend to go slower than it was at a time, but still it would not take you much more than a year to GM any skill with the appropriate dedication, but do not expect to GM any other in the meantime or else you are not focusing and dedicating to anything. It is all a matter of choice, having lots of skills rising up slowly or one rising up faster while foregoing the others.

It would be unrealistic to be a master of all, even after 10 years. unrealistic and very stupid in my eyes because it would remove all the flavors from being different than others and all the thing about being a specialist.

The only skills I consider impossible to GM are the few spells that requires impossible to get components, expect that I see no way someone who train and roleplay with others players can't be able to GM something.

Methods and dedication is the key to success and progress.

Well, that's my opinion anyhow.

Brar

[Isaldur]

I think you should let the staff speak for themselves.

It was a staff member who told me so, thus, they did speak for themselves. I'd appreciate you not attempting to bully the discussion to favor your opinion.

Asking someone to let the staff talk for themselves is bullying? No matter how many hot topic buzzwords from mass media you accuse me of, it does not change the fact it is a simple fix that just takes a bit more effort, and letting people know who are interested in building that we need it. That it can be done by anyone that plays FK new or old is the take-home here. In FK the players get to help solve their own and other players problems within reason, in the realm of soft-code.

If I were bullying my response would have been more along the lines of..

"Please provide the details you omitted on why your area was rejected. It's obvious you worded it like you did to make your argument seem more sympathetic. Secondly, you have no one to blame but yourself in regards to going over the vnum limit. There are clear instructions and you did not follow them, so how does the fault lay anywhere but with yourself? Finally, since when does "A few" equate to a singular staff member telling you something?"

Brar, nothing in disagreement here. The general feel is there are many positive and constructive ways to go about resolving many problems. Much of which can be done with some imagination and coordination IC. Other aspects can be solved by FK's wonderful feeder system of building and builders. I'm certain there are high-skilled fighters out there who could start holding true IC classes where they pull together groups like you described. Even better if they use the training areas that Selveem and others (myself included) feel could be added.

In fact those very areas being made use of in such a way would most likely help foster a system for creating adventuring parties, and group-tactics for tackling harder areas and difficult creatures.

[Selveem]

A few meaning one who is no longer here and one who I believe still is.

As regards to my area, you're partially correct. Going over the vnum was my fault. The second reason my area was not accepted was due to "lack of need." I've requested multiple times another project I may work on and have yet to be provided an answer. Like I said, it's not for lack of trying on my part. I can get specific if needed, I've no problems doing it. But, don't act like you know what you're talking about when it's clear you don't.

[Nysan]

We are drifting off topic...

[Briek]

We are drifting off topic...

Agreed

I think we have established a couple of points throughout this thread...

Methods and dedication is the key to success and progress.

the only thing stopping all players from having this is the fact no one has built it yet.

If you have patience, in 6 months or a year your skills will be better than they are now. Sure it will go up slowly and you won't get instant gratification within a week but you will delight in 6 months or a year when you are able to enter harder places and kill stronger mobs than you can now.

Pretty much what everyone has said in some way or another...

Have patience
Make it fun/involve others
Build more ways to make it diverse and achievable

Now that's it's been established exactly what the suggestion requires it would be apt to move
the discussion on to invite ideas on new areas, events etc

[Isaldur]

Hrosskell the Hoary's Northman School for Dragon Slaying?

Also Briek, as I mentioned before there is at least one area in game that can be used, it just takes a bit of asking IC. I might be so bold as to say there are three areas like the above mentioned (sans dragons and kilts) that are more or less open to the public within immersed reason.

I bet representatives of any area would be overjoyed to have such areas used in a manner by multiple people at once like a true training ground, perhaps even making it a regular event or teaching special classes.

[Gwain]

Hrosskell the Hoary's Northman School for Dragon Slaying?

That name is trademarked

[Valenus]

I don't see why someone couldn't practice a skill like disarm with another Player Character if they role played it out. It would be no different than someone in real life practicing archery with a small group, or practicing with wooden swords to improve their skills. Not everyone in the world trains their archery skills or skills with a sword by actually killing things, they often train with others.

If this makes no sense or I am totally off base, comment away.

[Harroghty]

Speaking as a member of staff: that is totally okay.