[ROLEPLAYING] Plots & Antagonist

[Rhangalas]

The game is nicely built, but it needs a reason for being. Don't get me wrong, the game is enjoyable at times, although, seriously lacking in aspects of role playing.

Not role playing on an individual level, but as a whole. To play a role, there needs to be roles in the game and for these roles to exist, there needs to be plot and story lines that demand these roles be filled. Without an antagonist or story progressing the plot onwards and giving it meaning, it's really not an environment that supports role playing. You can, of course, create whatever you wish, but in the end the character really isn't a contributing factor to the game, due to lack of story. The character in question could never exist and everything would be exactly the same.

Throughout the years and various characters I've played here, I've always done my best to at least attempt to force a needed role into the world and then play it, but there's nothing supporting it, so I just end up burned out and playing tabletop.

Fin.

Edit: Well, not entirely as a whole. Some of the newer players coming into the game - and regular players - could seriously benefit from a "Guidelines to Role Playing" sticky on the forums somewhere. The spam-moting must end! Please, don't do it. Everytime someone just continuously nods/grins/chuckles before everything their PC says and/or just nods/grins/chuckles after everything another PC says, I get this mental image of a crowd of bobble-heads just chatting away in the middle of nowhere.

[Selveem]

The truth of the matter is that it takes a really special breed of player to play an antagonist that is clearly evil, but does not upset them on an OOC level. For instance, a thief can easily grief players with repetitive thefts while superinvishidden then demanding ransom for their items to be returned, but as I've seen in the past this takes great finesse for other players to actually _enjoy_ the RP.

First, they (the other players) need to not feel cheated; to not feel the RP is one-sided. None of the "I did what I did, so I benefit from what I got." They (the other players) also don't always want to lose. Just because someone's a great antagonist doesn't mean they can't lose in some ways down the road. Even still, if one of their plots is actively defeated, all the better.

The problem is, be they protagonist or antagonist, people don't like to lose. So, their mind invents ways to avoid capture, save their own skin, and retain what they believe is now the product of their hard work. The problem lies in that portion.

Personally speaking, a well-played antagonist makes the game exceptionally enjoyable to me. There are some great experiences I had such as between myself vs Lathlain; Zarafae; Garuumsh; or Danten. Certainly, there have been others, but these are just a few off the top of my head. As an example, Danten has been gone for years, but I still remember and miss our interactions.

[Rhangalas]

With "antagonist" I wasn't exactly referring to a PC. I was referring to something that stirs up plot on a wider scale. Like a war. See, the thing is, "Rules of Engagement" ruin games. It should be more about playing a character and acting as they would, rather than your every action revolving around trying to make other players not feel "cheated". For this game to be immersive, there has to be a plot, or you get what you have now, players of all races and alignments killing for profit on a thin pretense of RP, which is almost crossing the line from an RP mud to H/S.

By plot, I mean an ongoing plot that defines the game. Joe Schmoe the Less Than Stellar Thief stealing someguys coinpurse in an alley somewhere isn't really my idea of a game-changing, world-encompassing plot. Not even close to a side-plot. In the Realms, that's like an every day occurrence in some cities.

Anyways, my current PC lives by his own internal plot and motives. I built him solely to exist in a near plot-less environment, but still be able to justify everything he does. I'm good to go.

In summary though, leaving plot up to players is a bad idea. The meat and potatoes of the game should be ran by a story team. The other player ran things could be done on the side lines, making those semi-plots the main course of RP in the game... eh... I mean, how many Tyrran gatherings are going to happen before some Knight just flips his wig and starts murdering everybody... wait, that would be awesome. Yeah, do that.

[Graham]

Do remember that all members of the Forgotten Kingdoms are not only allowed, but encouraged, to send suggestions for plots and roleplays to the staff members tasked with/interested in running RPs. Players also have the option of running plots that they are interested in seeing carried through, if I recall.

Fin.

[Rhangalas]

Do remember that all members of the Forgotten Kingdoms are not only allowed, but encouraged, to send suggestions for plots and roleplays to the staff members tasked with/interested in running RPs. Players also have the option of running plots that they are interested in seeing carried through, if I recall.

In summary though, leaving plot up to players is a bad idea.

Fin.

[Harroghty]

Rhangalas: Your use of antithesis does not really do justice to the realities of the situation.

The transient nature of the staff and players creates a need for coded sustainment reinforced by live, staff-led sessions when possible. We identified this and are implementing it.

What you forget though is that it all starts with players. Everyone on staff got there through leading role-play as a player. You cannot therefore so neatly divorce staff and player responsibilities. It takes effort from both sides, be it so mundane as a church gathering.

Just to be clear: I do not want to discourage your comments. The opinions are helpful and we appreciate reading them.

[Adabelle]

I played once on a MUD that had a constant world altering plot. It was exhausting. It drove away players and discouraged new players who didn't know what was going on. In the end I left that MUD for this one and never looked back. I much prefer a foundation of auto quest plots with the occasion punctuation of an IMM run plot.

[Athon]

One of the issues that antagonists run into is that it is much more difficult to create an antagonist than a protagonist in FK.

I know things are being worked on, but the resources available to evil players are far, far less than those of goodies. The faithing is fewer and farer between; there are less people trading so it is harder to acquire good equipment; many spells, skills, and components might be unavailable to evils.

However, this is just a minor issue as playing an evil is supposed to be a challenge. The real issue boils down to the actual RP:

Playing an antagonist is difficult in FK because anytime you attempt to do an evil deed, you are bombarded by twinked-out goodies. I'm all for good vs. evil RP but the balance is far too heavy towards goodies and it makes it difficult to be evil. With the amount of insta-travel spells available and the ability to "cry wolf" via amulet makes it easy for a Legion of Justice to be stamping out the evil PC (often having to work solo) in little time.

I feel I may be exaggerating a bit, but I've noticed this trend throughout the years. Anytime Grafghur decided to terrorize a forest (and he picked Ardeep because rangers never went anywhere else), there would be 5 rangers/druids and a couple of goodies from WD there. These just turned into shouting matches with very little 'real' good vs. evil RP.

I don't want to twink out evils. I don't want to have evils terrorizing and griefing every wandering newbie in the game. But we need to find a way to help balance the situation (allowing Drow to the surface is a good start, imo).

I miss Dretch.

[Selveem]

I miss Dretch.

You mean Tretch?

I can certainly understand your feelings, Athon. I, too, would like skills, spells, and feats more widely available, but Evils need to do their part if that's an issue they're facing. I resurrected the spells and skills trainer threads per Mask's blessing and created a new thread specifically for feats, too, but the only evil I recall posting in them was Duranamir.

As far as mob mentality, I also agree that an evil is more likely to be swarmed by goodies, but that's how it is in D&D too in many places (unless we're talking in a specific lair, in which case evils are often at just as much a disadvantage [if not, more so]). Evil rarely loses because of lack of power, but by the efforts of many heroes. I feel like this is sort of an echo of an old thread: "The Place for Evils on FK"

There was also a similar thread on a "Proposal for an OOC meeting to discuss evil RP on FK", but unfortunately (as far as I know) nothing ever came of that.

[Athon]

You mean Tretch?

Wow, yes. It's been so long I messed up Tretch with a mob found at the OSOW. Whoops!

I agree that goodies will likely out-number the evils and in the endgame, everyone (well, most people) wants the good guys to win.

My main point is that the balance is too far to the goodie side, which makes even attempting some evil RP too difficult.

[Harroghty]

I do not believe that the balance is swayed too far in favor of good characters. e.g. Zarafae, Maziken, et al. sitting on the Trade Way or attacking Ardeep. In one instance that I recall it ended up being Harroghty, Aldren, a few L15-30 good and neutral warriors, and maybe one low-level priest against five or six allied evil spellcasters. Suffice to say, the evils did just fine and there have been spans of months where evil characters dominated the battlefields of the Realms. The chance is yours, fellows, to roll an evil and thrive.

I believe that the problem is closer to something Rhangalas pointed out: people often do not have story enough to do anything about. I have said before that characters currently identify themselves according to faith and alignment groups. The "good" faiths line up to do battle with the "bad" faiths. The premise is not only faulty when the polytheistic setting is considered (it is the rare individual upon Faerun that prays to only one god), but it is boring. A lawful good crusade and a chaotic evil "tax collector" on the Trade Way are both stories propped up by the trite justification of "they're bad!" or "it's what (alignment) always does!". This is why I have hopes for the regional adventuring guilds and increased Realmslore in the game.

Regional identification gives players something else to consider when picking friends and enemies. Some good characters might hate a character like Danten because he is a Malarite and "Malarites are evil". Again, to use a personal example, Harroghty was courteous with Danten. Malar's faith is mainstream in Cormyr and the annual Feast of Stags supports many Cormytes in harsh winters. Harroghty never saw Danten do anything vicious. To him, Danten was a high-ranking member of a respected (and feared) faith. Adding regional institutions, and some accompanying Realmslore with them, will enable players to absorb themselves more deeply into the story lines of the Realms. A Waterdhavian may associate Helm with the Hellriders of Elturel and therefore with more secure trade, but a Dalesman would likely associate Helm with the slaying of Mystra and think a Helmite to be a monster. It adds new opportunities for role-play! You may still charge to battle when your Torman meets a Cyricist upon the road or when you notice a sniveling servant of Eldath plodding along with a cart full of ore that you'd rather not spend the time to mine, but you are not limited to only those things.

This is not something that will happen overnight, but nothing is stopping you from starting it early personally. I knew very little about the Realms when I started playing this game, but I had a lot of role-playing experience behind me and was excited to learn Harroghty's role. When we develop roles for our individual characters then we create tinder for sparks of inspiration to light the game for us and those who play with us. A well researched background and a plan to involve other players never hurts an application for special role-play.

[Rhangalas]

I know things are being worked on, but the resources available to evil players are far, far less than those of goodies. The faithing is fewer and farer between; there are less people trading so it is harder to acquire good equipment; many spells, skills, and components might be unavailable to evils.

I used to think the same thing a few years ago. You have to realize though, that in the end, the efficiency of a PC in terms of killing power always boils down to attribute scores, this is the reason why they were so obscure up until last year or so. With the right statistic build and a bit of tactical spell use with spells you CAN acquire, you can come up with some pretty nasty spell combinations. The same thing can be applied to warriors and their subclasses. Now... I am not advocating or advising that twinking is the way to overcome, but, when building a PC, the first focus should always be attribute scores, they are what gives you your multipliers, saving throws, and are the basis for which everything is calculated.

My grievances are more about the state of role playing. It is just like Harroughty outlined:

Players often focus on the simple "I'm good, you're evil, so we're enemies and I'm going to hassle and/or kill you every chance I get." or "I'm a Tallasan and you're a Mystran, time to die.". Everyone, or most, ignore ethos and Realmslore and just adopt this clear-cut "Good vs. Evil" and "Faith vs. Faith" stance with no allowance for grey area or compromise for the situation itself. Beyond that, another thing that irks me is that PCs approach other PCs that their PC has never met before as old friends and throw caution and proper RP to the wind simply because the player behind one PC OOCly knows that the other character is more or less of the same "alignment" and no consideration of the PCs motives, race, profession, demeanor, or anything else that would define the PC is taken into account. Whatever happened to the elves view of humans as hasty and ignorant? Whatever happened to the wizards hatred of thieves? What I'm saying is, too much focus is put on alignment and religions and less on lore, racial feuds, and so on.

Axises of Ethnics and Moralities
Ethos: Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic
Morals: Good, Neutral, Evil

Keeping the above grid in mind, it is well within "accepted RP" that a lawful good and a lawful evil PC may "get along" or tolerate each other as they are both of the Law. They may have different beliefs and morals in terms of the Law, but for the most part they uphold and live by it (Good cop, Bad cop). The same goes for others who live by the same ethos. Ethos exceeds morals for the most part, but still, even knowing this, every situation must be analyzed by you - the player - and then acted upon by the character using ONLY the knowledge that the character would have.

[Brar]

When building a PC, the first focus should always be attribute scores

i don't agree, when building a PC, the first focus should be his background, personality and roleplay. attributes comes far after that and should be tied to his background and physical attributes, not the other way around....

Players often focus on the simple "I'm good, you're evil, so we're enemies and I'm going to hassle and/or kill you every chance I get." or "I'm a Tallasan and you're a Mystran, time to die.". Everyone, or most, ignore ethos and Realmslore and just adopt this clear-cut "Good vs. Evil" and "Faith vs. Faith" stance with no allowance for grey area or compromise for the situation itself. Beyond that, another thing that irks me is that PCs approach other PCs that their PC has never met before as old friends and throw caution and proper RP to the wind simply because the player behind one PC OOCly knows that the other character is more or less of the same "alignment" and no consideration of the PCs motives, race, profession, demeanor, or anything else that would define the PC is taken into account. Whatever happened to the elves view of humans as hasty and ignorant? Whatever happened to the wizards hatred of thieves? What I'm saying is, too much focus is put on alignment and religions and less on lore, racial feuds, and so on.

Axises of Ethnics and Moralities
Ethos: Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic
Morals: Good, Neutral, Evil

Keeping the above grid in mind, it is well within "accepted RP" that a lawful good and a lawful evil PC may "get along" or tolerate each other as they are both of the Law. They may have different beliefs and morals in terms of the Law, but for the most part they uphold and live by it (Good cop, Bad cop). The same goes for others who live by the same ethos. Ethos exceeds morals for the most part, but still, even knowing this, every situation must be analyzed by you - the player - and then acted upon by the character using ONLY the knowledge that the character would have.

I can't agree more, you have very well put it down.
But then, we can't expect every player to know the FR lore, and they should not have to spend hundreds of hours in books to be able to play.
I think it is our role as "elders" to guide them and explain when something is weird (and when explaining it while staying IC, it is far better...)
I think a small sign introducing the areas could be nice, giving some background instead of the builders like in most areas, but then should we really rely again in the staff to do it? I think that if we really want it, then it's up to us the players to submit things and make it evolve.

Brar

[Rhangalas]

i don't agree, when building a PC, the first focus should be his background, personality and roleplay. attributes comes far after that and should be tied to his background and physical attributes, not the other way around....

I didn't mean as the basis of the character. I was referring to Athon's post about the focus on items and skills vs. availability. You can have every spell in the game, but if your intelligence scores don't meet the bar, it's pointless. Same thing goes for touch spells, you can have an 18+ in intelligence, but if you're clumsy with a 12 in dexterity, might as well stick to AOE's. Story comes first (it's what this topic is all about!), but with a little bit of planning beforehand you can have a PC that goes naked but still puts the "beat down" on any PC with a full suit of enchanted equipment.

Anyways, I disagree about the player not having to read the lore. They should. Every RP mud in existence right now has either their own wikia page or links to a wikia page that outlines the canon. How can you role play a character in a specific setting if you don't know anything about it? The game itself shouldn't have to have every single detail spelled out. If someone is truly serious about playing a role, they would put in the time to learn what they need to know to do so.

[Brar]

Anyways, I disagree about the player not having to read the lore. They should. Every RP mud in existence right now has either their own wikia page or links to a wikia page that outlines the canon. How can you role play a character in a specific setting if you don't know anything about it? The game itself shouldn't have to have every single detail spelled out. If someone is truly serious about playing a role, they would put in the time to learn what they need to know to do so.

I'm sorry, but this sounds very selfish.
What about the younger players who are discovering the FR with us? And obviously can't buy/find most of the books ?
What about slow reader who just don't have enough free time in their whole life to read about it all ?
What about the player whose only have 2 or 3hours of free time in a week?

Following what you are saying, those would not have the right to play because they can't read the dozens (hundreds...) of books about the FR I have in my library ?

Seriously, most of the longest standing FK players began to know about the FR while playing FK, some still don't have a clue about many things, yet they are wonderful roleplayers.
Even you who are so attached to the realmslore can make big mistakes ("Should have gone to Shadowdale, it was closer" rings a bell in you? I almost made a hole in the roof when she read it aloud ), even I who have read it all at least twice sometimes are clueless, because there is far too much to knows it all.

I think a little humility is sometimes necessary and helping less in the known people is not that bad. And I repeat again, no one is in any position to expect people to know about things that are not said in the game. It is not yours or mine or anybody's place to tell them what to do about their free time and if they don't then they should not play this game. (I may be misunderstanding, but that's what I understand reading your post)

Now, if all those informations is brought up in the game, then it is all good and let people learn as they do what they wish to do, to play FK and I agree with Harroghty in that it is the best solution.
But I also don't think it should solely rely on the staff, I think FK's been the same as always, and if you really want something to happen, then make it happen and don't wait for other to do it for you.

Brar

[Harroghty]

I agree in parts with both you, Rhangalas and Brar. I learned everything that I know about FR since playing this game. Sure, I did a lot of individual research and I think that a little bit is necessary, but we -as players and staff- should make that stuff as accessible as possible. Builders, when you build, start with a basis in lore. Every bit of knowledge that you add is something that people will be better role-players for knowing. It's a process though and Brar makes a good point (although I did not read your comments that way Rhangalas): we ought to be patient and helpful for others, teach them what we know and learn from them what we can.

I understand your frustration Rhangalas, but the best way to resolve it is to work to fix it. My degrees are in medieval history and I used to cringe every time I saw "chainmail" in Forgotten Kingdoms. (The word is mail! Chainmail was invented by 19th century poets trying to evoke images or keep their rhyme's meter or something.) So I learned to build and set about, when I was able, tweaking things to add a little more accuracy to the setting. Not everyone needs to be a builder, but whatever contributions you make will improve the game for all of us: be it in events, areas, staff help, or even just your own good example in role-playing.