Spell regeneration rates

[Mask]

Spell regeneration rates have been discussed many times, and rather than focus too much on the meditate skill or the difficulty of a newbie wizard, we should think about what the goals of spell regeneration rates are, and what other things we would like to achieve that are related to spell regeneration.

In D20, the basics are defined for arcane spells here and for divine spells here.

The fundamentals for arcane spells are:

1) To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.
2) After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour.

After preparation is complete, the caster cannot change spells without another 9 hour rest & preparation period.

For divine spells:

Time of Day

A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

If we implemented this in FK, it would mean that wizards would need to not move or speak for 8 game hours (40 RL minutes), then prepare their spells for another 1 game hour (5 RL minutes). If they wanted to change their spell list they would need another 9 hour period, or an 8 hour period if they just want to get their already-prepared spells back. Priests would need to pray at a specific time of day every day and would then need the same 1 hour (5 minute) preparation time to change their spell lists.

Clearly, this would be somewhat of a pain on FK as if you logged on for an hour, you would spent 45 minutes twiddling your thumbs while your character regenerated.

So what variation on this might work on FK?

[Lathander]

Sorry Marty, I'm not offering a direct answer to your question here, but want to express my thoughts on the overall concept. I worry that we might make wizards too easy. Shouldn't they be difficult in the early stages? Personally, I don't see anything amiss with the meditate concept as it is, other than that it isn't used in any real RP kind of way. Do spells currently regenerate that slowly?

[Adabelle]

I have a wizard and a Priestess and have no trouble with the current system. Yes, it is different then what is in D&D 3rd Edition, but it is a good solution for this application. In a D&D game you don't have to, as players, sit around for 8 or 9 hours. You just say... and you rest the night. I think meditation is a great device to allow it to work in a MUD setting where time is always ticking on one step at a time and you can't fast forward through the night.

[Bellayana]

That was nicely said Adabelle, I agree that is how I see it. Wizards are not supposed to be easy, and they have to spend time focusing each spell like a fighter would with a sword. The fighter uses the sword more, but it shows how many different spells the wizard has to master. I think the meditate skill being available right away will allow spells to regenerate quicker and in the style of meditation. The spell regeneration rate is quite slow from 1-10, and as spells are vital to wizards and priests meditate being available right away will help that process from a MUD point a view.

Clarity though...I should have said spell casters. I am thinking about them as a whole, Clerics, Bards, Rangers, and wizards.

[Isolrem]

So, first of all, obviously we can not simply emulate how things are done in DnD, where 8 hours can and usually does pass in a single sentence from the DM. What we must consider is ultimately what we are trying to achieve.

For the lvl 50 wizard and cleric, I am fairly okay with the current system, just in so far as how long it takes to prepare for combat, to rest in between battles, and so on. Yes there are certain things a spellcaster can do in FK that they can not in DnD - such as cast an utility spell multiple times a day when they only have one copy memorized, but that is not a big deal. One must also remember that offensive spells in FK are a lot less effective than they are in DnD, in DnD you can usually expect one or two fireballs to clear an entire room, but mobs in FK seem to have a lot more hp than their DnD counterparts.

As for wizard being supposedly a difficult class to start, that is the case for DnD but I do not honestly see why it should be the case here. In DnD you are guaranteed a party and you will always have fighter classes to tank as well as DPS to carry the wizard through the early levels. The wizard is considered an investment for the party as he is basically useless in the beginning but eventually becomes the most powerful member in the team. In FK wizards are not as vital to the late game as they are in DnD simply because there is a much lower demand for AOE (how many times have you hit 20 goblins with a fireball? That is a common occurence in DnD). In FK we also do not have parties on a permanent basis so this concept of investment is void, and we must admit that soloing is still a large part of gameplay, especially for new players or players who play at a different time than the majority. Even for me, I have a drow wizard who I've found to be basically impossible to train, as no one normally plays on their drow characters and I would have to ask those I know to log on and help me each time I need to grind through a few levels. Of course drows are designed to be particularly hard to train in any case so I'll leave that point here.

So if our goal is to make the wizard class not unbearable to start, while keeping the late game roughly as it is now since it doesn't appear to be broken, then this is my suggestion:

When a wizard enrolls in the School of Wonder (or its equivalent) and goes through its series of lessons, he will gain enough experience to go from lvl 10 to lvl 20 upon graduation. Yes I am basically suggesting 10 free levels for new wizards, these 10 levels are honestly the most difficult to obtain from normal grinding. I consider that since the school itself is already a large time investment that other classes do not have, this would not be totally imbalanced. Learning at the school is also a much better opportunity for roleplay than simply killing mobs, and it also makes it easier to help new players with their tasks without having to devote a large amount of your own time to it. In my mind this will be a great boon to the class and resolve a lot of its intrinsic unapproachability. So even though it has nothing to do with spell regeneration it is the best advice I can offer.

[Isolrem]

I have another suggestion for how spell regeneration works so I'll put it in a separate post. While I do not feel this is required it would make our system a bit more similar to that of DnD's. Basically, when you sit down to meditate, you do not recover any spells but only see a progress bar, when the progress bar becomes full, you regain all of your memorized spells. Since this is overall a nerf we should probably make this process take less time then it does currently to regain every single spell. What this achieves is that we have more of a fight (use up all your spells) and rest (get all of them back) pattern that we see in DnD, and it forces the spellcaster to prepare ahead of time all the abjurations and utilities spells he would want to use in the coming battle, while still not forcing anyone to sit there for 45 minutes.

[Harroghty]

I am admittedly a novice when it comes to spell casting characters of any type, however; I agree with Lathander. I understand that wizards have a hard time in their lower levels, but I don't buy that they are somehow hindered for their entire career. Wizards have a difficult early life and, in return, they reach power far and above beyond what a warrior could ever be. I see wizards cavalierly solo areas that even Harroghty, not your average fighter, would be cautious about. It is not as if they must shelter behind a fighter all the time.

So what's the point? I believe that a change to meditation* is closer to the answer than some kind of hand out to newbie wizards**. In my opinion wizards should be playable and fun, but they should still remain a rare and difficult class.

* Basically, when you sit down to meditate, you do not recover any spells but only see a progress bar, when the progress bar becomes full, you regain all of your memorized spells.

** When a wizard enrolls in the School of Wonder (or its equivalent) and goes through its series of lessons, he will gain enough experience to go from lvl 10 to lvl 20 upon graduation. Yes I am basically suggesting 10 free levels for new wizards, these 10 levels are honestly the most difficult to obtain from normal grinding.

[Selveem]

As someone who recently leveled a character from level 1 to 20, I can assure you it's pretty damned unbearable if you can't get to the guild you want to join at low levels. Unguilded wizards in particular have it pretty (annoyingly) rough. Unbearable? Actually, I'd agree that it's nearly unbearable.

I'm continuing my experiment because that's the type of person I am. What I can say is levels 1-10 when forced to solo (he's a pretty obnoxious character, so few can tolerate him for long) was an exercise in dull tedium. 10-20+ is obnoxiously trite.

The spell regeneration is less bearable after you get around level 20 because you have a lot more spell slots, but it's still a PITA.


My suggestions is to meld an aspect of 4.0 with 3.5 to form a hybrid:
(*For those who've not read about 4.0, wizards can always cast an offensive spell once per round)

• Remove auto-regen for spells. You MUST be sitting/resting/meditating/sleeping for spells to regenerate.
• If you are only resting or sitting, everything works as it currently does inept Meditate skill.
• If you're sleeping/meditating, make spell regeneration speed dependent on the spell slot level.
  Level 1: 9x current speed.
  Level 2: 8x current speed.
  Level 3: 7x current speed.
  
  Etc. In the end, Level 9 spells would regenerate at existing speed regardless of resting, sleeping, meditating, or sitting. If you are doing none of these, then you would not regenerate them at all.

Looking at this from a high level perspective, as I have a high level wizard already too, one might think this is flawed as you now have >100 spell slots, but what good are you at high level if all you can do is cast magic missiles without metamagic feats?

[Isolrem]

I don't buy the thought that just because some classes are better at lvl 50 they should be worse off in the early game. First off, ideally all the classes would be balanced, but that is hardly a priority in an overwhelmingly PvE game. I'll admit that in terms of late game power wizards are among the top two classes, (btw look at priests if you want an example of something in FK that is easy to train and overpowered in every stage of the game) but again that's not really a problem since every player can and most do have their own wizard chars, and wizard is undeniably among the popular classes in DnD. What is a problem is that new players are turned off from the game when they choose to play their favorite class only to discover what an absolute pain it is to get started. As Selveem has testified, I am making no exaggeration of how UNfun it is right now to create a wizard, and that in my opinion has more potential to hurt the game than any concept of balance.

I should mention my two suggestions are not meant to be compared or evaluated together. One addresses a problem I see with the game but does not directly relate to spell regeneration, the other is a direct answer to Mask's question but does nothing to solve this original problem.

edit: My only qualm with Selveem's idea is that it is undeniably still a buff to high level spellcasters and to be honest they do not need it (and to be honest nonwizard classes do not need it for lower levels either)

[Raona]

I'd propose the following as a way to help starting characters:

Modify spell regeneration rate to scale with spell "power": that is, the PC's skill with the spell as well as the spell level. Thus, new PCs with relatively low skill levels would regenerate, say, magic missile, much more quickly than would a level 50. This would leave things unchanged at the top end, where I think they are fine, but offer a boost to new PCs struggling to make it.

I'm sorry, but the idea of a 10 level boost for joining a school turns my stomach - indeed, the whole notion that a PC isn't "worth playing" until they can solo areas seems to me way off base. Young wizards SHOULD be vulnerable, and if they try to go it alone, they should die often unless they pick their battles very carefully, sticking to what they can handle with the spells they can memorize in one go.

If starting PCs need more help than the above would provide (and honestly, I haven't created a newbie mage so don't know, but I DO think they should be the challenge they would be ICly, much more difficult than a warrior if they are going it alone), I'd chime in for giving them access to meditate earlier, or a new (unskilled) command like CONCENTRATE <spell name> that lets them effectively meditate on regaining a single spell when resting.

[Adabelle]

Honestly as I read all the varied suggestion I find myself thinking. 'Well. Yah. That could be neat... but is it worth the effort?' I have seen a lot of unrelated suggestions I like infinitely more then changing something that i think works just fine. While it could be cool to implement some of the things described there are so many other things I would rather see.

[Isolrem]

I have to stress this a bit... I understand some of your sentiments. I have my level 50 wizard and I worked HARD to get him to the place he is now, and it felt REWARDING to do so, as if I EARNED it.

But I don't speak for myself in this. I can start another wizard no problem. I have enough friends and knowledge of the game that I could take all sorts of shortcuts through the worst of it.

But what about the newbies? I've always said that this is the group of players we should cater to first and foremost. And I don't know if any of you have tried to play a new wizard lately, but I can assure you if a new player came to FK, and his first choice for a character was a wizard, the chance we will be able to keep this player and add him to our playerbase is pretty close to nil. This is not a matter that can be resolved just by taking it slowly and picking the right fights. Your early level spells are utterly ineffective, your low hp and hit rate make you a complete cripple in combat, and worst of all the fragility of your limbs means you can easily and suddenly die at a reasonable amount of hp no matter how safely you are playing. And I feel a lot of solutions being raised are simply insufficient to fix this. Yes, there is still an answer. If a newbie invested a lot of his time in RP, and made friends to help him train, he could get through it alright. But even that is dependent on him being able to find other players, which is hardly a guarantee given our current playerbase. And I must stress this point: we have the get players in here playing first, and then teach them to RP. Not the other way around!

[Rhangalas]

Personally, I'm all for the D20 system. If the 45m wait is the issue, perhaps lower the time ratio. Instead of 5m RL/1hr IG, maybe 1m RL/1hr IG. It wouldn't detract from the game in my opinion, and given the fast traveling speeds, it would make journey time a bit more realistic from an RP perspective.

I.E. The ten minutes you took to get to Berdusk from Waterdeep would become ten IG hours instead of two...

Anyhow, this would make the 45m become 9m, which is a bit more bearable, though, to keep things balanced, you would only be able to do this once per day as per 3.5ed rules. This could also open up some possibilities for feats in the future. I can't recall the exact name of it, but I believe there is a feat that allows wizards to study in half the time or something along those lines. Maybe once in a period of 24m is a bit too fast though, I'm sure if the time was worked out it would be doable. As far as priests go, their 'pray-time' would be determined either by personal choice (if the deity allows it) or by cannon.

[Zorinar]

Basically, I think the crux comes down to the very slow spell regeneration rates when one's meditate skill is low. The people that have a low meditate skill are going to be lower level characters, and lower level wizards have it really hard in FK without even considering spell regeneration rates. Then add to those difficulties the very slow spell regenerations rates and it just makes life annoyingly difficult.

My solution: Give meditate to casters at level 1 at inept automatically upon creation.... or give them a newbie trainer that trains it at level 1. Its not a cure all, but I think it would alleviate some of the growing pains a wizard character has to go through.

Then, they will be able to start training the skill early and their regeneration rates wont be so bad.

Technically, it fits in with D&D rules to give it to them at level 1 (scribe too!) since a wizard has to meditate to get spells, even at level 1.

[Brar]

Edit: mixed two reply to two different threads....

I have a variation proposition.

You have a command usable that makes you renew all you spell list at once.
No more gradual regeneration.

So basically it works that way:
You memorize your spells normally and hit "meditate", you get a 2 to 5 minutes lag (could be dependant on a skill or feat), like a trade lag and poof all your daily spells are back up.

To compensate the 2.5 modifier I would say that you can use it 3 time per game day (tentative and needind testing of course)
To not be a big gimper, it would regenerate when offline, not like current abilities (shapechange and turn undead are a utter pain)

I think it would add a lot more tactics to fights and adventuring in general, and requires far more thinking for casters than the current habits to get all the powerful spells and filling the lower level slots with anything.

Perhaps you can set (once in your life) an hour when your meditate will come back available.
Or have it set depending on classes / deity for clerics.
That would be the time when you're "meditate" goes back to 3, there would be no gradual coming back for it. At a certain hour they all comes back and that's it.

It somewhat emulate the DnD system with the "Online game" requirement and reality.

Brar

PS: Before some will be tempted to say that it existed in another old mud and that I copied it, I was the one coding it in that other mud so yes, I copied my old idea and tweak it to FK

[Bellayana]

I like that idea a lot Brar, I think it would be great for wizards and priests RP wise and code wise. Great idea!

[Isolrem]

How is it conducive to RP that I have a 3 minute lag in which I can do utterly nothing? (I maintain that lag is not a game mechanic and should never be used as one). How is it conducive to RP if I've used up my daily meditates and now my character can not do jack?

The spells we use to fill the lower level slots are all utility spells that not only help with combat but also enable roleplay, and they help not only ourselves but also -you-. You want to force us to put offensive spells there instead? Well first you would have to make lower level offensive spells do something against high level enemies, which they absolutely do not. During training or questing against high level enemies, my wizard uses up every one of his spell slots in the course of 5 minutes. 3 daily meditates does not compensate for that.

In another thread you said you think the current system works just fine for higher levels, so why would you suggest such a completely broken alternative?

[Brar]

How is it conducive to RP that I have a 3 minute lag in which I can do utterly nothing? (I maintain that lag is not a game mechanic and should never be used as one). How is it conducive to RP if I've used up my daily meditates and now my character can not do jack?

The spells we use to fill the lower level slots are all utility spells that not only help with combat but also enable roleplay, and they help not only ourselves but also -you-. You want to force us to put offensive spells there instead? Well first you would have to make lower level offensive spells do something against high level enemies, which they absolutely do not. During training or questing against high level enemies, my wizard uses up every one of his spell slots in the course of 5 minutes. 3 daily meditates does not compensate for that.

In another thread you said you think the current system works just fine for higher levels, so why would you suggest such a completely broken alternative?

Wow, calm down man. It's all a game...
I suggesting another system because Mask asked us if we had alternative ideas, and that is one.

Firstly, in what I call 'trade lag' you can do things, simple things like say and you're not "stuck" in front of your screen.

Secondly, let's be honest you're not suppose to overrun any high level dungeon all by yourself while are of effecting all the room... sorry to disturb your all powerfulness.

And yes, it will somehow forces you to group... like fighters, rogues, bards, rangers....

Both wizards and priests will somehow loose powers with this system at high level, I agree with that. It will be more on par with how powerful they should be compared to the other classes.
I don't fall under the "nerf is bad for balance' thing, if all you do is make one more powerful to equal the other then all you have in the end are supermans.

I'll be honest, for me Wizards and Clerics are broken at high level because they regain their spell far quicker than they should, and with the character level taken into account it's even worse because even the attain maximum potential of their spells far quicker than before (and that last thing is good).
Take my ranger to Hartsvale, solo he can barely go past the ogres, not even dreaming of the giants.
Take Eltsac (which have most of his new spells at inept for lack of experience at level 50) with him and I just stand behind while he stoneskin, dragonskin us and wipes them all in no time, meditate one or two RL minutes (faster than the repop), rinse, repeat.

That is just plain broken...

And yes, you will have to choose between utility, protection, debuffs, damage, travelling, ect ect.
One priest with Stone skin as his domain spell (hence once per day) won't anymore stone skin his entire party via casting it, meditating half a minute, recasting it, remeditating, times the number of member of the group.

And I repeat myself, the meditate skill works good as it is, but the system as a whole could be changed, like the AC system changed, like the whole combat system changed, like the spell system changed, like xxxx changed....

How is it conductive to RP that your character have used up all their daily spell and can't do anything else until next day?
Well, because that happens all the times that wizards are stuck without spells and have to depends on their party to survive, that's DnD wizards life if you're not careful and casts all around without thinking... And this is surely something you never rped before, but should be part of a wizard/clerics rp to run out of spells from time to time, because that's how DnD is...

But then, that is just an idea, nothing else, nothing more.

Edit to add a clarification: I still think that newbie wizard needs another means of doing damage than plain memorized spells, something like level 0 wands that they can buy / receive for cheap, things like that to helps them feels like wizards while training and not gimped fighters.

Brar

[Bellayana]

I'll be honest, for me Wizards and Clerics are broken at high level because they regain their spell far quicker than they should, and with the character level taken into account it's even worse because even the attain maximum potential of their spells far quicker than before (and that last thing is good).

It is very true, Priests get their spells once a day. They are not supposed to be able to flash through an area with the almighty power of their god. Wizards are crazy powerful, and pretty much gods in FK. As Balager I was able to do crazy things and I just felt like that was crazy.

I think as far as RP is concerned it will take roleplay more into account when a wizard is going to have access to a spell, or when a cleric can change their prayers or have them available. This can allow Priests to roleplay teaching in their temple or go about their temple. I could even suggest that every Priest have to be at the altar of their god when they change their prayers. That would be very IC and make Priest PC's more believable.

[Isolrem]

My level of frustration stems from the fact that we have these suggestions coming from someone who appears to have no experience with high level spell casting classes of his own and doesn't appear to grasp the full consequences of his proposed changes..

Firstly, yes, in DnD you are only allowed to cast all your spells once per day. But that is because you have never ever needed to actually wait the full time IRL to recover all of your spells. Yes in DnD there are situations when you run out of spells, but that is only in the middle of a dungeon when you can't find a good place to rest, and contrary to your belief that happens just as easily in FK. But implement your idea and that will be the default state for spell-casters. Even a fighter can easily solo to train just by regenerating health by sleeping, but you are asking to completely remove that ability from spell-casting classes. It would be the equivalent of making it take 3 in game months for a fighter to recover health from 10% - 100%: surely it doesn't make any sense for a fighter to go from near death to peak fighting condition in the span of a few hours. To be fully realistic we would also make it take one game day to walk from one tile to another in the wilderness. The point is in a game realism is never a justifiable cause for making things less fun.

Secondly, let's consider what I am "supposed" to be able to do. Well by DnD standards a lvl 20 wizard pretty much is a demigod so that's a flop. Even if we accept your premise that all classes should be equally powerful and none should be able to solo high level dungeons, your proposed change doesn't stop me from overrunning high level dungeons by myself - I can still do that 3 times a day apparently. The only thing it forbids me from doing is training normally against mundane enemies or leveling up my spells. You mentioned "nerf is bad for balance." Nerf is not bad for balance, nerf is bad for FUN. People don't like having their toys taken away from them, it is absolutely preferable to make everyone else more powerful, and DnD IS about creating your own supermans, so I am entirely against your philosophy on this matter. Let us consider how DnD handles this imbalance: in DnD a lvl 20 wizard also easily obliterates a lvl 20 fighter given standard equipment. But at epic levels the fighting classes can even the odds because they benefit much greater from better armament - stuff like +7 weapons that dispel on touch. There is simply no near equivalent to that in FK, but with the new random reward system we are taking a step towards the right direction, for once we finally have a good saturation of +2 items. Keep doing this and the other classes will catch up with spell casters, then increase the difficulty of mobs and/or add more difficult areas, and that will give you a much more palatable way of keeping class balance, which in my opinion isn't even much of a concern.*

But whatever we choose to do, I pray it is not to adopt an idea which will make spellcasters usable for only 15 minutes every game day.

Finally, I'd like to address the specifics of what you described in Hartsvale. Rangers are absolutely the most underpowered class in FK at the time so the comparison is a bit unfair (fighters are known to be able to easily solo the ogres and take out a fair number of giants at a time, for instance), but even ignoring that I have to question whether you meant Eltsac was able to solo the ogres or the giants as well. As it is coded currently Stone skin does not prevent nearly sufficient damage if you are taking hits from those giants, and a single successful bash is almost certain death for the wizard.

edit: also like to mention that it is not as if spell-casting classes are not already given handicaps to offset their power (a power, I remind you, justified by DnD source material). In DnD you had wizards be many times stronger than fighters and they don't even have to acquire twice as much exp and spend hundreds of extra platinums to train spells, as they do in FK. As for grouping, a fighter/wizard pairing is still much stronger in FK than either individual.

*To clarify, while I agree there currently exist a good amount of class imbalance, it doesn't strike me as a cause for concern. For example, although clerics are acknowledged by nearly all to be the most powerful class, I've not yet found the interest to train one. And while fighters are mechanically stronger (thanks to a million extra feats) than their ranger and paladin counterparts, I am much more inclined to play the latter. And while Bellayana says wizards are godlike in power in FK, we have relatively few high level wizards active in the game, and even less new ones. So really it hasn't shown itself to be much of a problem.