Multijawed Spiders

[Keltorn]

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A Sewer Tunnel
 N-Darkness        S-Darkness       
A giant spider is here.
A giant spider's bite stabs your head.
A giant spider's bite deeply penetrates your left leg.
A giant spider's bite drills in to your left leg.
A giant spider's bite stabs your left arm.
With a sickening sound your pierce perforates a giant spider's chest.

That all happened in the first round of combat. I could be wrong, but that seems a little on the excessively overpowered side!

I think this might be a pair of bugs working together to rip me to pieces. I turned off my combat gag and found that these spiders seem to be getting two attacks per round. Creatures shouldn't be getting more than one attack per natural weapon, at least not by D&D rules. Unless these things have two sets of jaws, they shouldn't be getting two bite attacks per round. This is true for all of D&D's spiders.

The other problem is that hostile mobs always, always get a surprise round against players. If they get a surprise round and then also win initiative, it can lead to a ridiculous volley of attacks as seen above. If this is not so much a bug as it is a feature, I'll be happy to make a post in the Game Suggestions forum regarding having it changed.

For the purposes of reproducing this, the spider in question was one of the ones in the sewers beneath Daggerford. However, the multiple attacks per natural weapon might be happening with other creatures, too.

[Raona]

I can not reproduce any problem with multiple attacks per round on these beasties (m118). They have one attack, and attack once per round, and that's it, at least in my attempts to reproduce this.

The issue of incredible initiative is something I'm still working on, and is covered in this bug report:
viewtopic.php?f=148&t=12862

[Keltorn]

You know, I went right back there just to prove you wrong, and something odd happened. When I went back as a high level character, it went as you described. One attack each round (not counting surprise rounds), no more.

Then, against my better judgement, I went back as a low level character, and it started happening again. It does not happen every time, but it does happen often. Even worse, I caught one of those punk spiders doing three attacks in a single round. Look at the attacks made in between mine (and ignore the rat).

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Your pierce tears wounds into a giant spider's left leg.
    a giant spider has blood gushing from several grievous wounds.
You step back out of the range of a giant spider's jaws.
You step back out of the range of a rat's jaws.
You step back out of the range of a giant spider's jaws.
You step back out of the range of a giant spider's jaws.
Your pierce tears wounds into a giant spider's abdomen.

I've logged my entire near death experience, though I'm not sure if that helps or not. Are these spiders getting access to the Second and Third Attack skills? Do those skills work more often on weaker foes than they do on stronger ones?

Edit: I got a new record.

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With a sickening sound your pierce violently shreds a giant spider's chest.
    a giant spider is bleeding freely.
You step back out of the range of a giant spider's jaws.
You step back out of the range of a giant spider's jaws.
You step back out of the range of a giant spider's jaws.
You step back out of the range of a giant spider's jaws.
Your pierce minces a giant spider's right leg.
    a giant spider has several traumatic wounds.

I'm not sticking around to see if they get Fifth Attack!

[Brar]

Could it be that you have a very low weapon skill and when the check fails you simply do not attack?

It is only a supposition however and nothing concrete.

What weapon were you using and what is your weapons skill levels?

[Raona]

Sure enough, something is funny here. I tried it with a level 1 PC. This spider should be doing 1d3+2 against such a little guy, as best I can read its coding, but it was regularly doling out more than that, twice that and more...on rolls of 16 or higher. Perhaps it has a crazy critical threat range, or poison written into the race file? It did 28 damage on a roll of 20, once! Perhaps because the spider is size gargantuan and the my test PC was size small? Should that matter to damage done?

However, I did not see the spider get multiple attacks in a round, with no corresponding counterattack...there would sometimes be two spider attacks in a row, when it went last in one round then first in the next, but that was it. I still can't reproduce your reported situation, in which the spider is clearly getting more attacks than you are. These logs are with CONFIG -GAG, yes?

Changing this to confirmed, but it will take a while to sort out where in all of the possible places the problem(s) actually lies (hard, race, or area code). Thanks for following up with additional information, it's a big help! If you can confirm your logs are with GAG off, I'll try harder to reproduce the multiple attack aspect.

[Brar]

There may be a problem with the race file, because if it is gargantuan, then it should be at least level 43..and do 2d8+10 damage...

Checking this tonight when back home.

[Keltorn]

These logs are with CONFIG -GAG, yes?

Absolutely! I usually play with the gag on to cut down on screen spam, but I started noticing that I was getting hit more than once per round. I turn off the gag, and there's all those attacks; many of them miss, but enough hit to make these guys rough. That very first quadruple surprise attack I reported might have had the gag on, but the rest definitely did not.

Let me also add that I was actively watching these attacks go through, and those multiple spider attacks all happen at the same time. I feel strongly that they are occuring in the same round, not just because of the order visible in the logs but because I've watched the timing of them, too.

I'll try to help with the other thoughts, as well...

What weapon were you using and what is your weapons skill levels?

I'm pretty sure I was using "a tiny dagger." I usually use a spear, but I need a hand free for a light source. It counts as a short blade or thrown projectile, and I am novice and amateur respectively.

Could it be that you have a very low weapon skill and when the check fails you simply do not attack?

It is only a supposition however and nothing concrete.

I'm not completely certain of how FK handles many of its combat mechanics, so I'm kind of guessing, too. However, I never got the impression that a check was required in order to perform your first attack in the same way that second, third, etc. attacks work. I think the weapon skill gets applied to the attack roll and that you cannot fail to make that first attack, you can only fail to hit.

Now, if you can fail to make an attack and do so several times in a row, that could explain the appearance of the logs. That said, as I mentioned earlier in this pose (I should have said it sooner), I watched the attacks occur, and they all happened at once in the same rounds. I promise!

Sure enough, something is funny here. I tried it with a level 1 PC. This spider should be doing 1d3+2 against such a little guy, as best I can read its coding, but it was regularly doling out more than that, twice that and more...on rolls of 16 or higher. Perhaps it has a crazy critical threat range, or poison written into the race file? It did 28 damage on a roll of 20, once! Perhaps because the spider is size gargantuan and the my test PC was size small? Should that matter to damage done?

I'll start by saying I'm going off of D&D knowledge here, so if FK works differently, please forgive my ignorance.

A spider should never be able to crit on a roll of 16. Actually, no one can, not without the Improved Critical feat, and vermin (such as spiders) aren't supposed to get feats at all. The highest crit range any weapon can have without that feat is 18-20, but spiders shouldn't get that, either, since they're not wielding scimitars or rapiers. See...

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

...and spiders don't have a note saying otherwise. Actually, a range of 16-20 isn't even a possibility, with or without the feat... I'm going to stop getting caught up on the crit part now. My point is that 16 shouldn't be some kind of magic number here. If the damage is kicking up past that point, then something's fishy.

However, I did not see the spider get multiple attacks in a round, with no corresponding counterattack...there would sometimes be two spider attacks in a row, when it went last in one round then first in the next, but that was it. I still can't reproduce your reported situation, in which the spider is clearly getting more attacks than you are.

Does the initiative change up each round like that? Can the spidey lose initiative one round, then win it the next, resulting in two attacks in a row before you get to go? If so, I've never known, but that still can't explain the triple and quadruple attacks without the spider getting more than one attack per round.

Changing this to confirmed, but it will take a while to sort out where in all of the possible places the problem(s) actually lies (hard, race, or area code). Thanks for following up with additional information, it's a big help! If you can confirm your logs are with GAG off, I'll try harder to reproduce the multiple attack aspect.

I try, you know! If you'd like the complete logs, you know you can get me on IM. Also, if someone wants to watch while I get multiattacked, I'll dance for you, just so long as you don't let me get killed by the super spiders.



Believe it or not, my current D&D character actually has these guys beat. He Shapeshifts into a bear, uses a spell to get an extra two arms, then goes to town with his bite, four claws, and two rakes, all with Improved Critical. Vicious!

[Enig]

Heya!

What Brar said is right, a spider that's size gargantuan should be in the level range of 43-50 and it checks out in my copy of the race files and with 'showrace' on the test port.

m118 is level 14-15 (seems to vary) and seems to be correctly set as size large with 15 str and 1d8 damage per attack. Still pretty dangerous for the area, but at any rate, are you sure you were using the same mob for the second test?

[Raona]

Hmm, I was using the ones in the Wilderness the second time, but the same vnum appears in many places. Looks like the race file has size varying with level($i) as well...and $i is the mob itself? If so, what sets the level of the mob? That could be what's messed up here. That impacts the spider's CON, size, damage...makes a big difference! All the ones I find are level 14-16, though. Race file allows anything from Level 1 to 50...but never should allow multiple attacks.

I was wrong about the damage done depending on the target, by the way, I thought that's what $i was, but it isn't, at least according to the builder's lessons. It varies with the size of the spider.

[Enig]

The level of a mob is determined by area code, though there appears to be a variance of +/- 1 from what's listed in the area file. Unless they're unique and have had their stats hand set by their builder a mob will determine its stats/size/etc based on the formulas in its race file, according to its level.

[Raona]

I retract my earlier concern that these spiders are doing more damage than they should - I just misunderstood the target and purpose of a level check in their code.

They should be and are doing 1d8+2, critical on a 20. I still can't get them to attack more often than they should. I'll have to try to catch you in-game, Keltorn, to figure out what's going on.