Circle stab while mounted

[Aveline]

My understanding of this skill is that it should only work while you are grouped.. although that is not stated in the helpfile for some reason (Can someone tell me if that part is true or not? I'll add it to the helpfile if it is). Anyway, my only group member was my horse. And I have gotten two successful circle stabs on bandits, while I was mounted on said horse. I can understand getting an attempt if your horse is your only group member, if you are walking.. a horse kicking the opponent in the head might just be distracting enough for you to get a sneak attack in. I don't think however that you should be able to get a sneak attack in while you are mounted.

Horse is here mounted by you.
Horse weaves out of the way of a bandit's punch.
You attack a bandit as he gets within your weapon's reach.
Your slash lacerates a bandit's chest.
a bandit is badly bruised.
You weave out of the way of a bandit's punch.
You attack a bandit as he gets within your weapon's reach.
Your slash nearly bisects a bandit's abdomen.
a bandit is badly injured.
You weave out of the way of a bandit's punch.
Horse's kick smashes a bandit's chest.
Your slash nearly bisects a bandit's abdomen.
A bandit's guts spill all over the ground.
a bandit is leaking heart-blood.
A bandit leaps out of the way of Horse's kick.
Your slash minces a bandit's chest.
a bandit is slowly bleeding to death.
You attack a bandit as he gets within your weapon's reach.
You learn from your success and are now an amateur at circle stab!
A bandit goes down as your attack on him inflicts a fatal wound.
A bandit is DEAD!

[Yavor]

I would say you are right, since your horse and you (for the most part) are an "unified" attacker, you aren't attacking the bandit from a position that makes him unable to defend himself effectively (requisite to land a sneak attack).

Should this skill were modified, I would propose be it changed so you attempt to circle stab your target when it isn't targeting you (like in D&D), because if you are grouped with another PC but the mob is targeting you, you really aren't striking at him from advantage.

[Tavik]

I sat and tried to replicate this for about an hour and got nothing. I'm moving this to unconfirmed for now, but if this happens again, can whoever sees it include a log and note what horse you were on as well as if you have any other pets? Thanks.

[Aveline]

Sorry! I sort of forgot about this and I have had it happening continually since this happened. I was just looking through old bug posts of mine today looking for something else and found this. So I just went out, and on only my second bandit, I was able to get this to happen. I do have another pet, but she wasn't with us at the time. A tiny kitten.
(22517) Limelight, a Sembian horse is here mounted by you.
PM me if you want more info like what she is wearing or the vnums of her other pet or anything else! To replicate this over and over and over, all I have to do is just ride my mount into a fight and it will happen during most fights. My thief is journeyman at backstab and novice at circle stab.

Limelight, a Sembian horse is here mounted by you.
Limelight, a Sembian horse weaves out of the way of a bandit's punch.
You attack a bandit as he gets within your weapon's reach.
Your slash nearly bisects a bandit's abdomen.
a bandit is bleeding from several injuries.
You weave out of the way of a bandit's punch.
A bandit makes a nice kick, but your crouch places his foot a mile above your head.
A bandit leaps out of the way of Limelight, a Sembian horse's kick.
You attack a bandit as he gets within your weapon's reach.
Your slash minces a bandit's chest.
a bandit has blood gushing from several grievous wounds.
You weave out of the way of a bandit's punch.
You circle around a bandit and attack him while he is distracted!
A bandit's severed right leg falls to the ground!
a bandit has suffered mortal injury.
A bandit leaps out of the way of Limelight, a Sembian horse's kick.
You attack a bandit as he gets within your weapon's reach.
You circle around a bandit and attack him while he is distracted!
A bandit's heart is torn from his chest.
A bandit is DEAD!

[Raona]

Reading the d20 sneak attack rules, I don't see a clear indication that a mounted rogue could not sneak attack. It does sound a bit odd, but d20 says only

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

and

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies-undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

So, the question for those far more roguish than I is, is this a bug?

[Lirith]

It doesn't really make any sense for a rogue to be able to circle stab while mounted. The reason this happens is because the rogue is grouped with the mount, and you can only circle stab when grouped. The rogue is able to circle stab an opponent because the other member of the group (the horse in this case), distracted the opponent allowing the rogue to sneak behind them and thump them one. But if the rogue is sitting on the horse, that isn't possible.

I think it's a bug to be able to circle stab when mounted. Not a bug when not mounted but still travelling with a horse in your group.

[Selveem]

I agree. I couldn't see a rogue gouging or dirt kicking from their mount. Since you can't 'bash' on your mount as a rogue, so the opponents still get their Dex bonus to AC. Maybe with a scroll of hold person or the like it could still work..

[Brar]

Technically speaking, you can have sneak attack when mounted (you can even have them with ranged weapon as long as your under 15ft range)

But the horse you are mounted on should not be considered for flanking the ennemy (ie be on the other side of the ennemy).

You get sneak attack in 2 occasion, if you opponent is denied his dex bonnus (hence can't dodge your vital point strike) or if you flank your opponent (ie threaten him at the same time of someone on the opposite side, and thus he can't dodge both accuratly).

So yes you should be able to get sneak attack when mounted, but no you should not get them if the sole member of your group is your mount.

Even so, animals flanking should be tied to animal handling skill, the more high it is the more chance you get to direct your companion accuratly to flank the opponent but again, it is only one of my stupid ideas

Brar

[Raona]

Alrighty, still looking for more input on this. It seems part of the key is whether "circle stab" is just our name for a generic in-combat sneak attack, or meant to be taken literally. In the former case, I think Brar's suggestions are sound; I'd say that an animal companion should be considered able to flank if it is NOT mounted and able to attack; otherwise, the rogue will only get a sneak attack during combat ("circle stab") if their target is without their DEX bonus.

More thoughts welcome. I'll try to get a definitive on what Mask meant for "circle stab" to denote.

Thank you for the thoughtful replies so far!

[Keltorn]

More thoughts welcome. I'll try to get a definitive on what Mask meant for "circle stab" to denote.

The impression that I get from "Circle Stab" is that it's not a Sneak Attack by itself. It sounds like it's actually a skill that grants you the opportunity to score Backstabs while in open combat. There are some things in D&D that this might be emulating (perhaps the best fit would be Acrobatic Backstab from Complete Scoundrel), but the name suggests that it's like a cross between feinting and tumble.

Rogues normally get Sneak Attacks while flanking a foe, but since FK doesn't have tactical movement in it, flanking isn't really possible. Maybe Circle Stab was meant as a way to help keep rogues effective past the first round of combat (in addition to their other dirty tricks)?

It should help a good bit when we get some insight from the Shadowlord Himself.

[Brar]

Actually, Backstab and circle stab are remnants from the former 2nd edition of D&D FK was based on (and ROM engine in general) during his creation.

Sneak attack is a 3rd edition concept. In FK, it works once you' engaging the same enemy as someone in your group, which could be said to be an alternative to real DnD flanking.

But that's only my opinion and would need our Master comment to be sure what he meant with the new incarnation of backstab and circle stab (those incarnation have less than a year so he should still remember).

[Zuldere]

came across a bandit while mounted

A bandit walks in from the north-west
a palamino horse weaves out of the way of a bandit's punch.
a palamino horse weaves out of the way of a bandit's punch.
A bandit sidesteps your piercing attack.
a palamino horse's kick nearly removes a bandit's left arm.
"You circle around a bandit and attack him while he is distracted!"
A bandit's severed left leg falls to the ground!
A bandit is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.
Fortune, a palamino horse's kick nearly removes a bandit's abdomen.
A bandit is DEAD!

[Raona]

"Sneak attacks" should not function when mounted? D20 doesn't specify that, and describes them (despite the name) as attacks on a critical part of the body when the target is caught off guard. I think this has come up before...ah, indeed, found it. Merging this report with that one.

Looks to me like the take-home should be this:
You can only circle stab if grouped with other attackers.
If your group consists of only one combative pet, on which you are mounted, you can not circle stab by virtue of flanking.

Bug: Mounted combative pet should not allow circle stab, it does.

Do I have that right, now?

p.s. Zuldere and others reporting bugs here - this is the right place, but your post will not be visible to you until approved by a code team member. If it involves IC information (quests, object functions, etc.) it may remain invisible, but we will follow up. This makes it possible to have a "single path" for bug reporting rather than asking for area bugs to be identified and emailed to a separate place by the userbase. (I think this works better, now that we have the kinks worked out!)

[Pakur]

Tested it on my rogue, I'm able to circle stab while mounted.