Punishment for Mugging

[Nimboro]

It crossed my mind today, after this happened to me, that anytime you are caught for mugging a random item is taken from you. Now, in this case, my pack was taken from me. I find it a bit odd that a mob is able to take the pack from a player, but if I was to mug a player I could not take their pack, only a single item from it.
My suggestion is thus: Make it so mobs can not take containers as apart of a punishment, as it directly results in more than one item being taken from a player. Take an equipped item, take an item from the pack, but don't let them take the entire pack and the fifty or so things inside of it.

[Selveem]

This issue has also been brought up in the past. One such post is here.

That said, you bring up a good point. If a player were to loot a full pack, that player would be in deep water with the staff (as well as other players, for that matter).

The alternatives are primarily un-IC for stealing:

• make sure you leave your pack elsewhere.
• only steal while naked.

Additionally, I believe it is now impossible to steal packs (I think that's because of me *cough*). So, if your pack is confiscated, you can't even steal it back - you have to have an Imm intervene or kill the mob and hope they aren't set to purge their inventories.

Either way, this isn't a fair solution to minor crimes and I'd like to see it fixed.

[Gwain]

Some evil towns in the game will take you an cut off your arm for stealing then set you free or lock you up, they'll also then confiscate an item. I think the confiscation is part of the old mud system hardcoded into the game and not a deliberately coded option. I'd suggest that the thief no longer lose an item, but instead just get a limb severed followed by an aid action so they don't bleed to death.

[Raona]

I'm far more sympathetic to someone losing a pack on mugging than to the idea that if something important is taken, they can pay to get it back (the post Selveem linked). Similarly, severing a limb is not meant to be a death sentence, if I understand correctly (from Gwain's comment) that this can currently happen.

Two things I'm prepared to carry forward to the boss, if there's support from the playerbase:

1) Confiscation will not take containers (at most one item from a container)
2) Severing limbs will AID to prevent bleeding to death

If you like one or both of these, speak up. If you see a flaw in either or both, now's the time to say so.

[Lirith]

I like both of these, having been the victim of both in the past! Ahem.

I would also propose that holy symbols can't be confiscated as well as packs. This may already be the case after it happened to people a few times but I'm not sure.

Any other item excepting packs and symbols, worn or in inventory should be fair game for confiscation.

[Selveem]

I like both. Prefer number 1 - it seems far less messy and rational.

[Gwain]

I'm for the second, having random items taken from you with no feasible way to regain them other than unscrupulous means can lead to more items being confiscated until you have to approach naked in order to regain what was lost. Unless we have the guards have a buyback program, it seems less ic than losing an arm and being aided.

[Brar]

I would be in favor of the second for city without PC run CSI but for the first if the confiscated items are sent to a storeroom accessible by said CSI (Watch for WD, Zhents for ZK, ect)

That could be fun to RP the retrieval of the items and I imagine easily Gwain giving public interest work sentence like escort that young players through his quest, or mopping every street of WD or staying in the MS doing the traffic...

Just an idea of course...

[Gwain]

It sounds like a good idea, but there are issues with handling items confiscated by mobiles, first, the main issue is that we are not always available, and the justice system is coded to be available at all times. Therefore I would not feel comfortable controlling items I did not earn through watch rp because the code is an unbeatable entity, we are pc's which are capable of being defeated by superior foes or decisions.

Second, one of the personal challenges of the watch as a player run organization is keeping it fun. I was challenged when the hometown organization concept was introduced to find a way to make it fun, this usually meant toning down things like impounds, which were at one point quite regular and are now only done sporadically, because as it was rightfully said, its fun the first time, but the second time its not. If the watch has the ability to return items for a penance, it should only be done for situations reflecting the rp. A good example would be a pc watchman confiscating a known killer's weapon for a period of time for killing npc's in WD, in an rp where the coded justice system could not catch them and the watch was available to pass sentence. There we have complete control, and the occurrence is random enough not to be routine. We've toned down to reflect period policework, its why we're thriving and exist.

Third, through most established histories the crimes for theft were usually death, flogging, caning, imprisonment or the loss of right or left hand/ear/tongue. Another possibility would be coded public humiliation, there are stocks in Waterdeep in public where a coded guard could lock someone in for a period of time, we could put up a sign that says for theft or such.

[Raona]

I did not mean to suggest 1) vs 2), but rather both: modify the confiscation code and modify the limb severing code, both remaining as possibilities varying by locale. If you think one or the other should be eliminated entirely, that's open for debate too. Thank you for mentioning holy symbols, Lirith.

My revised proposal:
Keep punishments as currently coded, but
1) Modify confiscation code such that it will not take whole containers (at most one item from a container) or holy symbols. Any other one item, worn or in inventory, is fair game.
AND
2) Modify limb severing code such that it will AID the victim to prevent bleeding to death

[Gwain]

I don't understand why we have to keep in the part where a mobile confiscates a random item in the first place. I would think losing a limb is better than having to continue to steal back items from guard mobiles because there is no ic way to request, demand or buy them back for most players.

[Selveem]

I agree with Gwain here. It doesn't promote RP, in my opinion, and only pits players vs the code. We don't want players finding loopholes, so we shouldn't put them in that position.

Additionally, many times these 'punishments' are meted out due to unintentional mob intervention (like a player killing a rat and a guard assisting the rat).

[Gwain]

My point is that lesser thieves, rogues and such that are new to stealing usually get caught for this, then try to steal back their things, fail and repeat it. It does not make much sense.

[Bellayana]

The item all together is a bad idea in my opinion. I would love the idea of severing a limb and then in certain cities they aid, but in ones like Zhentil and Westgate they don't aid and you can bleed to death or aid yourself. Also if it was possible for a mobile in each area to yell out randomly that %player was caught stealing and has been punished accordingly that way people will know who has been stealing around the kingdoms. Would be interesting for thieves as well.

[Gwain]

I'd recommend universal aiding, only because if you have multiple crimes and you get thrown into a prison cell you're quite out of luck if you die.

[Selveem]

Belly, you're thinking of aid in IC terms. Don't think of it in IC terms; they aren't being compassionate and providing you medical treatment as much as trying to ensure that you don't die before your entire sentence is served.

[Raona]

It may be that of all the folks in the galaxy I've the least sympathy for thieves, but...if there's no item confiscation and severed limbs never bleed to death...is there sufficient downside risk to stealing from heads of state or important merchants? The code doesn't support their remembering you.

There needs to be a substantive risk to getting something for nothing. In some locales, jail times would be quite un-IC, it seems to me.

[Lirith]

I think the punishments as they are are suitable with the original minor changes suggested. Losing a limb without any risk of bleeding out and then sitting in jail for an hour or two isn't enough of a deterrent in my opinion.
Confiscation of an item is a far worse punishment if there's a risk of something important being taken. I also like the RP that can result from it, either from dealing with the loss of the item or from trying to get it back.

[Gwain]

Myself, speaking as someone that has experienced the current system in the past, I found it to be unfair, having items at random taken by mobiles that all looked the same and were coded to repeat the process if it failed again and I was discovered. In the other extreme, I was was also severed and then locked away to bleed to death at another point. The system is unfair to those that use the thieve skill to get items from mobiles and pc's, that I know, however I did fail to consider that for the most part, the current system does regulate the use of the thieving skill, and curve abuse. Therefore I'd change my opinion based on such realizations and come to the conclusion that the only reasonable change the punishment that there should be no confiscation of containers and severed thieves with sentences in jail should be aided to avoid dying in the cells, not because its fair, but because unless you're a watchman in Waterdeep or an Imm, no one in the realms can retrieve your remains without having to serve a sentence in the same prison.

[Hrosskell]

Personally, I'm with Gwain on the confiscation bit, for various reasons. If the right item is taken, then any thief--new or old--is going to attempt a stealback, and the spiral can begin (and end in devastating ways). While jail time isn't the best deterrent, getting caught in the places that do use jail time (WD comes to mind) are potential ends to a fledgling thief's RP career--there's nothing worse than having your name shouted across a populated City with the word thief attached to it--and that has been deterrent enough to me in those places. Limb severing, aid or no, seems good in the places less populated and less.. kind.. in the dealing out of justice.