Spell regeneration rates

[Uleha]

As someone who has only ever played one wizard (and only to mid-to-high-20s in level) the only complaint I have with the difficulty of levelling is that it is not challenging enough.

[Pakur]

Really? O_O I want your wizard

[Selveem]

Don't listen to her; she's a masochist I bet!

[Pakur]

Lol!

[Raona]

So with a CONCENTRATE command they could focus on one spell, and if they do a lower level spell the speed will be much quicker than say a level 8 spell. Is this possible to code?

It is certainly possible to code - both a change in spell recovery rate and a special command that allows you to effectively meditate on a single spell, without the meditate skill. But it is only worth doing if we are confident that one or both of these will fix the problem without breaking something else. (Actually, the regen rate change would be relatively easy, I think. A new concentrate command might require more work.)

[Zorinar]

Just a thought,
Wizards' downtime is a major source of complaint because we compare to another class, like a fighter, where such downtime is only applicable when healing wounds (which wizards also need to do). Perhaps going about it from the opposite direction would bring some level of balance to the equation by actually using stamina for more than moving. Like when a fighter looses stamina they should no longer be able to swing or at least they should lose some attacks.. or maybe inflict lesser damage. Therefore the downtime would be required by everyone in some form or another and everyone can complain about it equally:)

The point of concern from the wizard side is simple: Spell regeneration rate is so slow at early levels that spells are often not depended, especially until level 15-ish. (I made a new wizard and it drives me crazy:) )

Yet there are other things that affect this, it's not in a bubble. Changes are being made to make the wizard's spells more baseline with the D&D yet other things like allowing clerics/rangers/paladins full melee and spell casting abilities simultaneously are not being addressed.

Currently, it can take me sometimes 14 lightning bolt spells (at GM and Empower) to take down a fighter to stunned when it should take me about 4-6 in D&D terms. ((So yeah I get lots more spells than D&D ... yet I need 4 times more of them just to do the same damage in most cases )) Our changes have ensured that wizard spells are now being resisted properly yet still not doing the proper ratio of damage. Imagine how the lower level wizards do.....

The spells being addressed and "corrected" are chronically ones that affect wizard / vs fighter outcomes ((....for some odd and strange reason.....)) Yet spells like blindness that are supposed to be a fighters bane are instant death to a wizard and have no effect on a fighter or cleric's melee abilities and absolutely no effect on mobs... Why even have the spell in game? Why do we make some spells like D&D yet others are considered ... "..too strong for the spell level if blindness acted that way" (Semi quote to me when I tried to point out the issue elsewhere). We seem to make sure that disarm is always working properly though, and hit bonuses for fighters.... interesting...


Many of the higher level spells are not even available to players further hindering wizard players from actually experiencing the class as a whole yet great strides seem to be made in getting more feats, weapon types and magical gear available for non wizard classes.


There are items that now increase a players saves yet are there items that increase spell DC rates? It is so rare for me to see a spell not get saved against by a player that I come to never expect a spell to fully work. I am actually surprised when I do see it.

Changing mirror image (which is really how a wizard was keeping alive in solo mode on FK in the past when it worked differently) now has images being destroyed even when mobs miss a kick or punch, effectively destroying all images within a round and allowing the mob one or two rounds of hits before a human player can use their keyboard to get another set of images up.... That is an example of a change that was too soon and only negatively affected the wizard class. That should have been a bit later when the difficulties of the newbie wizard had already been sorted out.

All of these issues and more affect the class as a whole. Spell regeneration rates are not the source of the problem, they are just confounding the entire issue. I have been told I am biased towards the Wizard class and hardly taken seriously when I rant on as such, which is quite sad because if you look back at many of my posts the older and experienced wizard players almost always backed me up because they knew I spoke the truth. People whine that wizards are too powerful but seriously I have lived in envy at the other classes and how much easier they have always had it than I did. You just need to play a wizard full time to see it. They are uniquely strong in PVP because in FK everyone does a full buff before the fights start. Only Selveem had the guts to attack as soon as he saw a wizard starting to buff up for a fight in my experience. If a PVP started with almost no buffs cast, the wizard would lose almost 100% of the time to every class in the game.


My suggestion:
Instead of worrying about something small like a spell regeneration multiplier value, fix the classes, all of them. Don't tweak one class then leave the rest alone. Fix the core and the rest of the game will fall into place wonderfully. For wizards, its the spells, for Rangers and Druids.. proper animal companions, proper class abilities (Druids get tons) and so on. I'm sure all the classes could use an overhaul.

[Selveem]

Just a thought,
Wizards' downtime is a major source of complaint because we compare to another class, like a fighter, where such downtime is only applicable when healing wounds (which wizards also need to do). Perhaps going about it from the opposite direction would bring some level of balance to the equation by actually using stamina for more than moving. Like when a fighter looses stamina they should no longer be able to swing or at least they should lose some attacks.. or maybe inflict lesser damage. Therefore the downtime would be required by everyone in some form or another and everyone can complain about it equally:)

First of all, stamina doesn't exist in D&D for melee combat. That really only comes into play with stuff like swimming underwater (holding your breath) and the like. It shouldn't even be decreasing during combat.

The point of concern from the wizard side is simple: Spell regeneration rate is so slow at early levels that spells are often not depended, especially until level 15-ish. (I made a new wizard and it drives me crazy:) )

That was the reason for my original post about wizards regen.

Yet there are other things that affect this, it's not in a bubble. Changes are being made to make the wizard's spells more baseline with the D&D yet other things like allowing clerics/rangers/paladins full melee and spell casting abilities simultaneously are not being addressed.

Agreed. And things like casting more than once per round without the use of feats.

Currently, it can take me sometimes 14 lightning bolt spells (at GM and Empower) to take down a fighter to stunned when it should take me about 4-6 in D&D terms. ((So yeah I get lots more spells than D&D ... yet I need 4 times more of them just to do the same damage in most cases )) Our changes have ensured that wizard spells are now being resisted properly yet still not doing the proper ratio of damage. Imagine how the lower level wizards do.....

You're forgetting that you also have a lot more hp than a wizard should, as well.

The spells being addressed and "corrected" are chronically ones that affect wizard / vs fighter outcomes ((....for some odd and strange reason.....)) Yet spells like blindness that are supposed to be a fighters bane are instant death to a wizard and have no effect on a fighter or cleric's melee abilities and absolutely no effect on mobs...

And you can argue that baby-level spells such as mirror image making you neigh-impossible to hit so long as it's up and not being subjected to feats such as cleave is unfair too. Or that polymorph is allowing you access to stats well in advance of what they should grant. Or that concentration is far more powerful in FK than it is in D&D (where, being hit by a greatsword in D&D by a high level fighter has a pretty good chance of making you fail your concentration, even with stoneskin). You're making this far too black and white.

Many of the higher level spells are not even available to players further hindering wizard players from actually experiencing the class as a whole yet great strides seem to be made in getting more feats, weapon types and magical gear available for non wizard classes.

Casters have long dominated this real with rewards from high level areas. Name any full plate armor that was magical before RMI (randomized magical items) feature was introduced? I can name about 12 magical items that were caster-specific to increase spell slots. Some were pretty high level spell slots, too (5th level or more). Additionally, wizard gear was introduced with the same new system you're using as ammunition.

There are items that now increase a players saves yet are there items that increase spell DC rates? It is so rare for me to see a spell not get saved against by a player that I come to never expect a spell to fully work. I am actually surprised when I do see it.

Max save increase of +2.. certainly nothing for a wizard to have to worry about? You're delving into the realm of PVP now which Wizards are already second only to Priests.

Changing mirror image (which is really how a wizard was keeping alive in solo mode on FK in the past when it worked differently) now has images being destroyed even when mobs miss a kick or punch, effectively destroying all images within a round and allowing the mob one or two rounds of hits before a human player can use their keyboard to get another set of images up.... That is an example of a change that was too soon and only negatively affected the wizard class. That should have been a bit later when the difficulties of the newbie wizard had already been sorted out.

It still works far better than it should. Your images are still getting higher AC than they should have. I think you're over-hyping this one. I can provide logs of me still missing them quite a bit since the changes to them.

All of these issues and more affect the class as a whole.

I disagree. The issue I see is the regeneration of low level spells for <25 level characters (thus far, I am still level 22); not the damage of them. This issue is compounded only by FK requiring a great deal more exp needed to level than in D&D, so the downtime is even more noticeable.

If a PVP started with almost no buffs cast, the wizard would lose almost 100% of the time to every class in the game.

Did you still win most of those? I'll check logs later.

My suggestion:
Instead of worrying about something small like a spell regeneration multiplier value, fix the classes, all of them. Don't tweak one class then leave the rest alone. Fix the core and the rest of the game will fall into place wonderfully. For wizards, its the spells, for Rangers and Druids.. proper animal companions, proper class abilities (Druids get tons) and so on. I'm sure all the classes could use an overhaul.

I'd agree on this, but this is a big undertaking and our Druid base is significantly smaller than our Bard base, for example. I think things are prioritized by popularity (at least slightly, and even then it takes the backseat against things that are severely unbalancing).

[Hrosskell]

I don't have much to say on this post except that I disagree about wizard downtime being an issue that needs immediate attention, if any at all. Having levelled an invoker recently (post the MOB to DND standardizations that made most mobs a bit tougher), I can't say I experienced any of the downtime anyone's talking about past level 16 (access to 4th level spells). Having levelled two warriors recently, I can say that the levelling experience went by pretty quickly UNTIL level 16, where it seemed I hit a pretty tough wall that made me consider risk v. reward grinding (i.e. killing mobs who posed significant threat to my character alone, but rewarded considerable experience per kill). Having a moderate grasp (that I try to improve upon every time I'm in contact with the game) of how the combat system and its products (experience, skill gain, HP loss, death, etc.) work, I might be at an advantage that a new player is not, and can see that maybe it would take a bit more work to get that wizard going, but I believe that there are more than a few warnings sprinkled throughout character creation that wizards are hard. I believe that this is enough--and if it's not, the only changes I would make are a more visible warning or refurbished School of Wonder (lower the exp cost factors of learning spells required for classes, expand classes to include very basic commands like casting and memorizing, all the way up to very involved commands like metamagic casting).

[Uleha]

I love playing a wizard. I love the challenge. I love the downtime. I for one, don't care much to constantly be pattering away at my keyboard while I'm meditating. I believe that every time an IC command (IC being a command that isn't who, or score, or kismet, etc) your meditation counter should decrease and it should take longer to regain spells. I think that all classes should be brought down a notch, especially wizards and priests. No class should be made easier, except maybe thieves. They get the stinky end of the stick more than anyone around. There needs to be a demand for skill and tactic in the game past collecting poop beforehand to give yourself an extra 700 strength before you go into a fight. I want to see the Realm of the Dead full of unprepared or unskilled adventurers who didn't think things through before diving head first into an inn battleground full of goblins. Goblins that DIDN'T hang out and wait to be killed 2 at a time, but instead heard the sound of battle and all rushed to get in on the action.

[Zorinar]

Is it me or has meditation seemed to slow down drastically? Several other people have mentioned this to me and I have to agree that something seems different. Sitting for 20 to 25 minutes (and not even for full spell list regen) is getting a bit tedious and really increasing the boring factor by multitudes.

[Selveem]

I'm one of those who have noticed it to, by the way. It does seem as though regeneration rates have decreased. I can't say when, specifically, as I've been concentrating on my Fighters more than my casters. Zorro might be able to pin that down better than I.

[Rhangalas]

Regeneration rates never really bothered me on my beginning wizard PCs.

The main problem is being forced to grind ten levels -just- to enroll in the School of Blunders, then spend another five or so levels worth of experience, at least a week or more of standing around waiting for help, and around twenty or thirty platinum of your hard earned newbie funds to essentially be allowed to... become a wizard?

It should be: You go to a guild, you study there, upon completion of the studies, you're specialized in whatever that guild teaches. There's already a "goodly races" guild for every school in-game. A School to join a school...



Then there's the racial issue. One mob in each non-humanoid hometown that can guild would solve the whole problem and would make sense from an RP standpoint. That would erase the need to create several areas, mobs, quests, shops, and items for every single non-humanoid race in the game.

For example, the witch doctor and his hut in Orc Camp becomes a guild, shop, and master all in one. He'd know a few spells from each school. He gives an apprenticeship quest(s) and upon completion gives you a choice of what you wish to learn (specialize in). That would essentially allow all of the goblinoid/orcish races to guild. They already have the disadvantage of nearly no trainers outside of Orc Camp anyways, so they're still going to have to scrape and struggle for new spells, which also makes sense considering they are not traditionally known for spellcraft.

Using this "formula" you could create a multitude of "mini-guilds" out of one mob, one room, and one quest. Later on, if possible, the PC could go on to join a more established guild and whatnot.

[Lyllee]

I'm going to resurrect this thread because I'm a new player and just got thoroughly discouraged from playing a spellcaster.

This whole issue seems like a result of half-implementing D&D rules. Relevant points:

* Mobs here have different HP (seems like higher here) than in D&D, but spells have the same damage as in D&D
* Time is handled differently than in D&D (D&D has variable time passage), but combat happens far more frequently here than D&D

If you want to move more towards D&D, that's great, but you need to be consistent about things you don't want to compromise on. One thing that seems non-negotiable is how time is handled. There are no DMs to say "Ok, a week passes. Do what you want in town." and have it only take 5 minutes RL time. So, the obvious solution is to speed up spell regeneration rates to account for this fact. Otherwise you're completely biasing combat in the game towards melee because of downtime and damage discrepencies. If time passed in a D&D campaign like it does in FK, spellcasters would lynchmob their DMs.

By the way, is this a completely dead issue that is never going to get fixed (or changed is a more diplomatic word, I suppose), or will I eventually be able to roll a spellcaster?

[Anthalas]

Personally I like meditate at level 1 for Wizards and Priests as it gets the best results for the least amount of effort.

The only reason I haven't created a caster yet is because I found it a pain to get out of the newbie training area and into roleplay. Getting out anywhere under level 6 means you're a free snack to most hostile mobiles running around.

I really wish that there was an option to multiclass but seeing as how the skills system is set up, this would not be feasible for the time being.

suggestion that might work though:
Allow for 25 or even 30 special levels above 50 that can be taken at any time once the character moves into a guild of their choice

These levels are for the sole purpose of multiclassing
These levels do not grant extra hp or stamina but do allow for spell levels and abilities if the taken class is capable of such.
Restrict certain classes like paladins and druids, maybe even rangers, from multiclassing.
Restrict the number of classes a character can take to a total of 2

In the end though, this is only a suggestion.

[Isolrem]

I'd like to point out that I made all the points at the start of this thread in the interest of how a new player might experience the game. Now that we have actual new players speaking up in agreement with my point of view, I hope my initial posts will be given another look.

[Selveem]

Isolrem for Oracle!

[Trillarel]

Personally I like meditate at level 1 for Wizards and Priests as it gets the best results for the least amount of effort.

The only reason I haven't created a caster yet is because I found it a pain to get out of the newbie training area and into roleplay. Getting out anywhere under level 6 means you're a free snack to most hostile mobiles running around.

I really wish that there was an option to multiclass but seeing as how the skills system is set up, this would not be feasible for the time being.

suggestion that might work though:
Allow for 25 or even 30 special levels above 50 that can be taken at any time once the character moves into a guild of their choice

These levels are for the sole purpose of multiclassing
These levels do not grant extra hp or stamina but do allow for spell levels and abilities if the taken class is capable of such.
Restrict certain classes like paladins and druids, maybe even rangers, from multiclassing.
Restrict the number of classes a character can take to a total of 2

In the end though, this is only a suggestion.

Anthalas, are you a telepath? I concur with the observations. And I suggested multiclassing too, some time back....
I cannot wait for the revised Path of Life...

[Grenwyn]

Maybe I'm just ridiculously patient... but it doesn't take more than a week or two IRL, playing sporadically, for me to push a spellcaster past level 10. I just did, actually. Is that really too long? Or am I just that good?

[Selveem]

Maybe I'm just ridiculously patient... but it doesn't take more than a week or two IRL, playing sporadically, for me to push a spellcaster past level 10. I just did, actually. Is that really too long? Or am I just that good?

If you're talking about a Priest, it's really not the same at all.

Additionally, your stats seem to play WAY too much into how much exp you gain. For instance, if you're a character with really crappy Wisdom and Charisma, exercise by pounding sand.

I've already posted my experience with a character described above.

[Athon]

If you're talking about a Priest, it's really not the same at all.

Additionally, your stats seem to play WAY too much into how much exp you gain. For instance, if you're a character with really crappy Wisdom and Charisma, exercise by pounding sand.

I've already posted my experience with a character described above.

Does WIS/CHA still affect experience?