Reflections about stealing

[Dalvyn]

Ok, let's try another approach.

I suggest the following simple rule. What do people think about it.

Stealing from mobs (not including minions). Stealing from mobs is not restricted in any way. Like all other actions though, there can be IC consequences to the thefts.

Stealing from PCs (or from minions). Just like p-kills, p-steal is restricted to thefts that are done for roleplaying purposes. That means that the main objective of the theft must be to generate some sort of roleplay. More concretely,

• Objects that are stolen from PCs (or minions) cannot be sold to mobs. Objects that are stolen from PCs (or minions) cannot be abandonned on the ground or similarly put in a situation where they would be eaten by the next crash/copyover. The thief is responsible forsafeguarding the stolen objects.
• The thief is responsible for setting up a situation where the victim of the theft has a realistic chance to get the items back. This would generally take the form of a service the victim has to perform or a price the victim has to pay before they can get the items back.
• Stealing objects from a PC or a minion then sacrificing/burying/discarding them or selling them in order to make quick coin is NOT acceptable on FK, in the very same way that killing other PCs just to "own" them is not acceptable.
• An offense to this rule could lead to the thieving character being deleted. Repeated offenses could lead to a ban.

[Laitaine]

I would happily agree to those rules.

[Emrys]

This is just my thought.

If such strict rules were put on stealing from other player characters, I would prefer to simply make a rule that you cannot steal from PCs.

If I want to develop a wonderful RP about how I robbed someone, I can much more easily contact the player in an OOC manner, work out the details, and they can just give me the objects I have 'stolen'.

I think it should be all or nothing, really. It boggles my mind to read posts about warning potential victims ahead of time and making sure they have an opportunity to get their stuff back. Sounds like a thief with a short lifespan to me.

Since players, though, might become upset (and this is entertainment), I think a better option is ban stealing from PCs at all.

[Horace]

I dig it, D.

This would remove the theft from mounts unless you're certain who it belongs to. It would also ensure that the majority of thieves wouldn't steal frivolous things, and wait for items with significance to generate meaningful role plays.

If you could add a container rule, I think it'd be a perfect compromise and satisfy both camps.


Quick PS

It boggles my mind to read posts about warning potential victims ahead of time and making sure they have an opportunity to get their stuff back. Sounds like a thief with a short lifespan to me.

Just remember that the victim in the game is the character, not the player. If you're going to perform an action and wind up seeing another player as the victim - then the action doesn't have the spirit of the game in mind. You should play with the idea of working with other players, not against them. Working with a player does not exclude your characters working against each other.

[Shabanna]

1. I see nothing in Dalvyn's latest post about warning the PC... and I would think that this suggestion would supercede any made before it. ( did I misread your last post Dalvyn?)

2. I think this last suggestion sounds fine to me, as written but, we have had Psteal regulations that have not been being followed. ( many are similar to what Dalvyn has suggested)

Same as PKill there will always be people who do it the way they want and sadly there is not an Imm on 24/7 to observe poorly executed Pkill/ Psteals. It is a shame that Pkills and Psteals can not be logged at length.. not jsut the act but the actual back log of X number of lines saved for review by Imms.. Im not a code person dunno if that would even be possible)

The truth is... No one likes to have their things taken... IRL or ICLy. For quite some time...we have had the rule in place that a rogues must provide an opportunity for the victim to recover their item, as well as the no logging off rule and no stealing packs... and stealing from mounts has to be treated the same as a Psteal. Yet, we see people continue to break said rules... and do it their way. I think it would have to come down to consistency of enforcement and having more Imm supervision ( which perhaps is asking a lot more of the imms that are already stretched thin?)

If we could enforce the rules then of course it would open up the opportunity for RP for those rogues who wish to steal and generate RP, rather than snatch and grab with little regard for RP which is being spoken of here ( and gives all rogues a bad name )

SOoo basically I think it SOUNDS good... but might not work as well in practice as it sounds due to the limited and overtaxed Immstaff. wo we would be relying upon even more for supervision. ( just my opinon) though I am all for more active imms and less over-coded stuff ( hold those tomatoes code dudes!!! *grins and ducks*)

Done,
Banna

[Kregor]

I'm not saying you shouldn't wear that cloak. I keep bags in my inventory for the same reasons. I'm saying that you should not be oocly miffed if a thief comes and makes rp out of that situation.

If we really want to keep moving toward making things in this game proper and D20-like. No one should be able to steal containers like packs at ALL:

Sleight of Hand DC
10 Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear
20 Lift a SMALL object from a person

There is also an epic condition to lift a weapon, only from a target's sheath, and conceal it on your person. This has a DC of 50. This would be virtually impossible for anything short of an epic level character who put a bulk of his skill points in steal, and not even reachable by a GM level thief on FK (which equals 25, and since we have no finite means to restrict one's skill level I think that ceiling on all skills is just fine).

Really, stealing things like packs, bags, etc that are on a player's person is totally unfeasible. Face it, no one's going to NOT be able to tell they are 100-200 pounds lighter when you try to lift that pack, including your pet. No one is NOT going to give themselves away trying to lift a 100-200 pound container, or even a 50 pound container, unless you're like a half-ogre rogue with a 30 STR.

Frankly, there's plenty of ways to generate RP in this game besides stealing from another player. And I would not shed a tear seeing the code to do so go away entirely. At the very least, it should be restricted to a single item not more than a pound or two, to bring it consistent with D&D style guidelines. 90% of psteal is for PWN, rather than RP, and sometimes, you have to cut out a little good metal with the rust to keep the rust from coming back.

[Zilvryn]

Dalvyn's just said what i've been trying to say far more succinctly than I managed it.

Dal, i'd happinly agree to those rules.

It would be a massive improvement

[Dalvyn]

Shabanna's comment is right on though.

We have indeed had those rules (perhaps less explicitly) for a long time. Rules are just rules... and they can only be enforced when an imm is online, or a player sends in a complaint about having their minions stripped of everything for example.

In most cases, when we are aware of what happened, the dead has already done and if a whole pack has been stolen, it's impossible for the imm to precisely determine what was in it. So, in the end, the character who has been robbed still suffer the loss.

Perhaps that removing the option to steal containers would help. But that would take a hard code modification.

[Velius]

Everything should be free-for-all except for

Containers ( kinda obvious why )
Items of a certain weight and up ( FE, 10+ )
Items of a certain size and up ( FE, victim size+ )

The 'bad apples' are easily breaking the rules now, instead of making a big list of rules, why not just code it into the game that 'This item can't be stolen', no matter what rules you make they'll likely still be broken, and the innocent will be the ones punished.

And again can I ask, how do you RP stealing stuff without having the whole MUD know of your thief status? If I were a thief, I'd pretend to be in the fighter's guild, establish that and talk sweet to everyone, and accidently take a little something from the other player and say 'Hey, wasn't me, I'm in the Fighter's Guild, remember?'

Just making a point that thieves don't want the whole world to know they are a thief. That'd just mess up the whole ( if not a large ) role/RP of the thief class

[Raona]

And again can I ask, how do you RP stealing stuff without having the whole MUD know of your thief status? If I were a thief, I'd pretend to be in the fighter's guild, establish that and talk sweet to everyone, and accidently take a little something from the other player and say 'Hey, wasn't me, I'm in the Fighter's Guild, remember?

I'm hardly an expert, but since you've asked again and didn't get an answer the first time:
You're on the right track, in that a decent rogue isn't going to be dressed in black and pop out of the shadows all the time, they are going to have a "cover story," and act so as to make it plausible. (This came up in a forum discussion at some point, but I can't find it now.) So too with their thievery, they aren't going to be obvious about it; but it's also wholly unrealistic to suppose they can do it without a "cover story." So you might RP poking your target in the platemail, or stumbling into them. Here's a plausible steal RP, I think (this might be a playful thief):

Mage: "I don't know how I'll ever get any dragon's blood..."
Fighter: "You'll need more than your frail frame, little man! You'll need a big beefy fighter, like me."
Mage: "You mean you would help me?"
Fighter: "Well, if the price were right, I might deign to..."
Thief: Dances around Fighter saying "Fighter, fighter, he's the man! If he can't bash them, no one can!"
Mage: "Price? You mean I'd have to pay you?"
Fighter: "Skills like mine don't come cheap."
Thief: Pokes Fighter in the chest, yelling "YES! Here he is, a true icon of badness! If he can't bop it, you'd best scamper away!"
Fighter: Nods
Thief: Pats fighter on the back. <steal attempt>
Mage: "Well... I have two silver coins..."
Thief: "WHAT? You insult my comrade in arms! He can pummel me into oblivion by throwing two silver coins at me, and I'm a fighter! You would probably only take but one!"
Fighter: "Yeah, I'm worth more than a blunt dagger, kiddo."

This isn't great, but this is what people mean...to make a steal plausible, I think the situation has to put your thief there, not suspected, not in the shadows, and make contact with their target in some way that would cover the disruption. Pick pocket (if we have that) might have a lower threshold.

Surely someone out there has a log of a well-RP'ed theft?

[Dalvyn]

In my post above, I didn't mean to imply that the theft attempt should be roleplayed, but that it should be done in order to generate roleplay.

Raona's example above is perfect, but you don't have to do that (I would think that it could work once or twice, but not much more than that). I've seen thieves use a simple smote saying that they bumped into their victim on their way out of wherever-they-are, but that too is not needed.

What I meant is that the theft should be done to generate roleplay, and not only to go to the nearest shopkeeper and sell everything that you have stolen. As for giving the victim a chance to get their belongings back, you don't have to do it yourself. Obviously, if you come to your victim with a huge grin and says, "Hey there, I stole your mandolin. Pay me 500 platinum if you want to see it back", you will be identified as a thief. What do clever thieves do? They use fences, or agents, or anonymous notes to contact their victims. All that is possible on FK.

[Velius]

In my post above, I didn't mean to imply that the theft attempt should be roleplayed, but that it should be done in order to generate roleplay.

Raona's example above is perfect, but you don't have to do that (I would think that it could work once or twice, but not much more than that). I've seen thieves use a simple smote saying that they bumped into their victim on their way out of wherever-they-are, but that too is not needed.

What I meant is that the theft should be done to generate roleplay, and not only to go to the nearest shopkeeper and sell everything that you have stolen. As for giving the victim a chance to get their belongings back, you don't have to do it yourself. Obviously, if you come to your victim with a huge grin and says, "Hey there, I stole your mandolin. Pay me 500 platinum if you want to see it back", you will be identified as a thief. What do clever thieves do? They use fences, or agents, or anonymous notes to contact their victims. All that is possible on FK.

Thanks for the examples, I agree that the stealing of items should require an RP of some sort, I'm sticking to the "free-for-all" method, but all thievings should require RP. I think that if an item is stolen without RP that the player should lose the steal skill. I just don't think we should lay out rules ( if these people are already ignoring the rules, whats going to make them suddenly want to obey the rules? It will only hurt the innocent if we lay out more rules )

1 major difference I see in making rules for PK and Psteal is the fact that it is very hard to kill someone and get away with it. The player knows your adjective/name, and possibly a lot more details. With a Psteal you'll most likely not know who did it or any details of the person who did it.

EDITED TO ADD: I just noticed I said that we should RP when we steal, but there shouldn't be any rules... just going to add that the only rule for stealing would be RP. Other than that if you just code it in the game that you can't steal certain objects then horray I guess.

[Cret]

Ok, just had a quick thought about this.. as a rogue myself thinking hey..

Stables
=======
All around the kingdoms are stables where one can leave their mount in
relative safety. Some stables charge a small fee for total safety. More
and more stables are starting to offer this service.

On a roleplay note, please make sure when you are using stables that service
a certain type of customer that it is in character to do so. For instance a
stables in a temple, is technically set up just to serve those of the faith.
A rogue for instance would not house their mount in the Halls of Justice in
Waterdeep. Make sure you find an appropriate place to house your mount.

Im seeing alot of people parking Griffons, horses, dogs, etc with packs in their inventory arround waterdeep.. or just out side the city. As a rogue, why cant I steal 'lift' a bag from these?

There is a griffon stable on Mount Waterdeep and other stables inside the city for other pet/minions. They may not actually stable a beast, but, as I recall, the old rules (perhaps still in effect) was you cant steal from a pet: in quest areas (such as feebovs), a pet inside a stable (Teleporting to a beast and looting it while in the stable room) or in uncoded stables. Were as pets not in such areas. Sitting on the side of WD MS would be fair game.

This might not be a good argument for being aloud to steel from pets.. but it might be a good way to get people to start using stables again.. as I havent seen anyone's mount get stabled forcibly by the watch

[Lathander]

This is a two-edged sword Cret. In an IC sense, and even to large degree an OOC one, I don't see anything wrong with a thief stealing from an unstabled animal in an area where stabling is adequately available. The only OOC issues I have with that practice are the amount of items stolen and the nature of them (quest items, valuable renames, etc.). It is very hard to police. It is very easy to decree "All animals not stabled in an area where stabling is available" are fair game. But, there will still be MANY complaints, hard feelings and such if items are actually stolen.

As for areas in the wilderness, I see several objections to this train of thought. We all seem to forget that wilderness squares are in measurements of miles, while city streets are not. That ranger's horse in the forest might be miles away from you. Even moreso are the flying mounts that would likely be perched much higher or take to the air when someone other than their master was nearby. Many places in the wilderness don't have stables but are assumed to be watched. Ardeep being full of elves is but one example.

[Emrys]

Also, stealing is wrong.

[Vezain]

See, I would like it happen that, if a thief does steal thing from a minion, they would RP to get it back, I personally have had stuff stolen off a minion, and it's really irritating when you have no way of getting it back, especially when it's a thing you get from a quest. So, I like these rules.

[Neriadin]

Whatever happened to the individual character's responsibility for the safekeeping of their belongings? There are PLENTY of warnings in game that remind players to act responsibly because there are thieves about. Let me put this into IRL perspective a moment.

I park on the street in downtown Detroit and leave a briefcase full of diamonds open on the seat of my car and walk away with the windows down and the keys in the ignition. Should I expect to see the diamonds (let alone my Lincoln) when I return? Essentially, we are talking about the exact same thing here.

A thief takes your stuff because you made it easy for him to do so. It is not the thief's responsibility to safeguard your gear.

Sure, there are times when it is unavoidable to have your gear in "inventory", like when you are repairing your gear. AFK/Link-dead is another situation that cannot always be helped. The "rules" should concentrate on those kind of situations rather than the carelessness of unresponsible PC's.

[Kregor]

Not the same at all, actually... A car is a non-living, inanimate object. A trained and loyal mount/companion is not.

Now, if you want to theorize that your lincoln has a complex artificial intelligence that would allow it to a) step away from someone who acted suspicious around it and was a stranger, b) could close it's own windows and lock it's own doors before someone could reach in 3) bite the hands off of someone who wasn't its owner who would DARE put hands on it while the master was away, and 4) be able to howl, whine, squawk, in proactive anticipation of being assailed upon, THEN we would have an adequate comparison for at least one of the situations above where we are saying that stealing just doesn't need to happen. The problem is, code-wise, we can't get the pets to DO what they would do if they were controlled by players, or using their actual intelligence, so players have a tendency to treat them, as well as other mobiles, like dumb, inanimate objects, which is neither IC, nor roleplaying.

You can also not make yourself invisible so that other people around cannot see you reaching in the car, or take the suitcase and slip it into your pocket (here is the flaw and fallacy of allowing containers to be stolen in code). Whereas the code in FK allows people to treat hide like it were invisibility, and to think they can swipe and carry away a 100-pound pack of stuff, and no one looking on be able to see him carrying it. Again, not IC, and NOT roleplay.

[Sairaven]

To play devil's advocate here, it is extremely possible to get away with something like this.

In real life, I am 6'7" and 300lbs, yet I constantly sneak up on people without even meaning to. As a matter of humor, I actually managed to unzip a friend's backpack and remove his laptop and three books without him noticing. I gave them back, of course.

Hiding in Shadows, while it sounds dark and spooky, is more about not being seen than it is actually hiding in a shadow. Most shadows are not dark enough / thick enough to truly conceal someone. It's about the art of distraction and diversion, and simply not being conspicuous.

Someone would not think twice about me walking down the street with a sack over my shoulder so long as I look like I should have a sack over my shoulder. That is to say, if I project 'this is my sack' I won't be questioned.

Or, a good thief will have a backpack and simply transfer the stolen goods into it and ditch the sack. Less conspicuous.

Again, just playing Devil's Advocate here. I completely understand the reasoning behind thief restrictions. One bad apple is all it takes.

[Neriadin]

I believe we are in agreement, Kregor. I know I did not provide a long list of exceptions, but the ones you provided helped to increase that list. I believe that if it is poor RP to steal something, then it should not be stolen. As noted in the preceding post, it is also good RP to promote the deception that a stolen article is yours....which will meet with various degrees of success depending on the believability of the deception. Taking something that is easily concealed should probably be acceptable, as opposed to stealing an entire fountain from Market Square. I also agree that containers should be on that list of exceptions because of the severe lack of storage options available in game. However, coin in a persons inventory is certainly a good target RP-wise for most thieves and most players don't have enough saved up in the bank to have reached the maximum deposit limit. The point of my previous example was that PC's have a responsibility to protect their property. So, when putting together the "exception list" of items or circumstances involved in a "steal" attempt, we should be asking if the PC can reasonably be expected to protect the item from theft. IF the answer is no (because of difficulties with coding or lack of storage options for example), then it should be an exception. If yes, it should be fair game.

Also, thieves should always remember the risks of being caught. In some cultures, a thief will lose their hands if they are caught. In another, their skin is removed one inch at a time and the wounds packed with salt. Those methods of punishment are a bit harsh for this game, of course, but a thief should always consider such punishments as a possible outcome should they fail. Perhaps then they will choose their targets more carefully and execute their attempts with more finesse. Any "thug" can mug someone and most halflings can "borrow" something permanently by accident, but it takes a true craftsman to execute the theft of something memorable without being suspected.