Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

The distinction has been made before, but it's again worth stressing that FK != DnD.

You don't require regular food/water in DnD, you don't have to put yourself through trials to serve under a deity, you don't have to find/appease a guild in order to become your chosen class, you don't have to find trainers for skills/stats/feats. These things are all just assumed, presumably because they'd otherwise get in the way of a pen and paper game's flow.

It could be argued that we're doing it wrong, and that maybe the MUD's systems do all need an overhaul to make it more playable - but that's not what we're discussing here. I suppose my only real counterpoint is that the 'DnD doesn't make you do all this' approach doesn't hold water here, unless you want to start turning tables on a much broader scale.

The purpose of spell components, as I see it, is to create a little gravity to the act of spellcasting. If it costs around 10 platinum to see somebody returned to life, as well as attaining a difficult-to-find focus item, it has more meaning than a mere 30 seconds' meditation and a few keystrokes. If blinking across the kingdoms in a heartbeat results in you losing a stone you spent 10 minutes constructing, it helps put the power into context - as opposed to encouraging flagrant, unstoppable spellslinging.

Now it's feasible that some spell components cost too much for their output - and I know this is arguably true for some frequently used offensive spells - so is it a matter of making these in particular easier to attain, as opposed to removing them entirely? The one thing I think we should avoid is to blanket-flatten entire systems as a kneejerk reaction to one or two specific qualms.

Selveem wrote:The fact remains, however, that it seems we have lots of spells with components simply for the sake of having components.

That's my point, and gathering components takes too much time that takes away the spellcasters from rp and playing with others (time to search the right merchant for your component, time to gather shards and use alchemy, time to gather your component in the wilderness, ...). I don't discuss the availability here, just the time needed to gather it because there are so many different components and we use a lot of them (from my point of view, I cast many more spells in fk than in D&D table top game... the 2.5 multiplier for longer fight has an effect here).

Adding new time consuming means to gather the components won't help to me (especially if you make tons of trades... as you will only be able to use one at a time while offline, it will take far too much time to gather all the different components needed).

Making some components easily available in a shop would reduce the time to gather them of course, but then having those components would only be a matter of money. So if the spell is not that powerful to require the spellcaster to pay for each of its use, why adding more weight to the spell pouch to cast it?

I would not delete the components completely as I find the current components have an IC link with the spell (as the rod and the fur for lightning bolt) and I have always took them as a base for Eltsac's lessons to younger wizards (though I have had a hard time to start with the carrot of dark vision :p).
That's why I would keep them and set more components so they are unused when casting to ease the spellcasters with their components gathering.

Plus... it would be a good point not to have a heavy spell pouch of the size of a backpack on your belt to hold every components you need.

As it was said, wotc already made a big job on balancing the spell components. So why not keep one use components for the D&D specific components with a given worth (and maybe a few others for spells you find too powerful, or for spells like raise dead you want to add 'gravity' too); we can keep trades such as alchemy for those components.
We could make other components unused or with lots of use on it (like 30 or 50) so you don't hoard your spellpouch with consumable components and gathering them isn't such a time consuming pain that do not bring any gameplay fun.

That way spellcasters would have more time for rp and others.
Trade interaction stays for specific components.
All the availability problems would be limited to those specific components, easier to manage.
Less weight for the spell pouch
More different spells casted in game, more spells available to spellcasters on everyday adventuring and thus maybe more tactical play using all those spells
More fun!

But then, as I said, there might me a hidden good reason to add so many consumed components to spells in fk... I just fail to see what those consumed components bring to the game compared to the disadvantage...

And I agree that DnD != fk, but then if we make some choices that differ from DnD rules, then I would hope them to bring to more rp / playable / fun

El

Eltsac wrote: I would not delete the components completely as I find the current components have an IC link with the spell (as the rod and the fur for lightning bolt) and I have always took them as a base for Eltsac's lessons to younger wizards (though I have had a hard time to start with the carrot of dark vision :p).
That's why I would keep them and set more components so they are unused when casting to ease the spellcasters with their components gathering.

Makes me thin kabout high level hard quest that gives you the spell and another high level hard quest that gives you the focus for it, and if you lose it..then you have to do an even harder quest to get one back. Sounds fun to me

Ok but you have to consider your spells can make you extremely powerful... and if you stock up properly, you only should have to spend a day every week or two stocking up. Just save your money and stock pile. Take a bag with you, and stock up. If you can't find the components, ask other wizards and initiate RP! When I am looking for stuff... I ask my other caster friends in the game. Eventually I find it, and then I know. I don't think components should just be handed to the casters of the game. Part of this game is shopping and such. And if you want rp time... take people with you to shop. Or meet with the various merchant guild people.

I agree with you but what about peoples who have only 3 or 4 play hours per week? Should we forbid them to play wizard class?

It is only rhetorical of course, but we should think of everyone.

Looking at Eltsac's OOC compo list (for all her characters and mine, meaning basically all spell classes up to level 50 but bard and pamalin err.. paladin), considering that we don't know half our spell lists with 8 years of xp and training to catch back, there is already 75 differents components.
Eltsac alone as a wizard have 50 in his spellpouch that he uses and he is already missing some (with less than half the spell on his spelllist trained).
He is between 1 to 20 piece of each and he have 30lbs of components, it's not a spellpouch, it's almost a cart !!!

If he were to completly empty his spellpouch, I'm not sure it would take him only half a day to fill everything back, even while using gate to do shopping like he usually do (damn lazy archmage...)

Yet, I don't want a system without components at all, but something with less consuming in term of ressource, or something with more focus and less usuable component, be them harder to get focus.

Just an idea supported by some crazy numbers :p

Brar

I may be odd but i like having to search for components, it is one of the things that makes for continuing play for a mage. If i only had to do it once when i learned a spell then those components never ran out i think we would lose something in the game.

However i do get annoyed at the rate that some things get used up, and therefore the sheer number of certain components you have to carry around. In my opinion if you have to carry more than 20 of something for general usage there is something wrong. And there are components like that, the most annoying to me being a simple flask of water !

Duranamir the mage

That's okay by me, Duranamir.

The rest of us can only need to stock on components a few times a week and you can open up a store. Win-win!

I want a to open a store...

Maybe the thing I'm a casual player now don't help in the liking of so much component gathering...

Well in fact I like to do it... but not to put so much time in repetitive tasks to be able to be a mage..

I would prefer to have a smaller number of consumed components with diversified and fun ways to gather them, even more time demanding ways like quests and such, some ways that bring some interaction. Having less components to gather but we could focus on those gathering to make them playable, interactive and fun.
Rather than having nearly all components consumed and required gathering... because we need to find out an alternative way to 'out of stock' merchants

Less components to gather, but making those gathering more interesting.

Nysan wrote:I want a to open a store...

Gilain... Eltsac still has a shop in town... missing a vendor. I can hire you?

El.

The carrot is the focus for darkvision, because RL carrots contain vitamins that are good for the eyes. Thus, the rumor that if you eat carrots you will have good eyesight in old age.

As far as components go, my only issue is availability. It wouldn't concern me if they number in the hundreds, just as long as I can find them in a reasonable fashion. While FK doesn't adhere to D&D cannon 100%, it is still not sensible in both cases (FK nor PnP) for a wizard to carry every component in the game on their person at all times. Carrying what you need for the spells you regularly use and stocking the rest in a cart sounds more logical to me.

Years ago, component weight was reformed so that a reasonable amount (10 or less) would yield little or no weight. Though, if you carry something that weighs a pound or less in bulk, then it does add up a bit. I might be mistaken with the weighting of components though, but I do remember that before the change, they were heavier and after they all became lighter.

Necalli wrote:Carrying what you need for the spells you regularly use and stocking the rest in a cart sounds more logical to me.

That seems strange to me to see a mage wandering with his component cart... though maybe a mage would use a bag of holding instead but it's not in game :p

I could let some on my mount in a stable, or stick to gather the components of the more regular spells... but then it's what was previously said, I would end as most mages, stick to casting always the same spells, and wizardry would be much more interesting with more diversity in the casted spells. Group adventuring could be more fun and tactic if the spellcasters were not limited to cast a short range of spells due to components (that or they spend hours before just to prepare).

It is so great to have a wide range of spells in game, adding more possibilities to spellcasters (more different spells do not make them more powerful as they won't cast more spells in fight, but more tactic, more possibilities for specialisation, more diversity in casting style, more buffing...). So why this spell list should be limited to most regular spells for component sake (or this large spell list would be accessible to hardcore players who have enough hours to spend in game for the gathering)?

But then, as always, it's a personnal feeling and I don't seem to gather many people to my cause, even with all the components threads that have showed up.

Necalli wrote:The carrot is the focus for darkvision, because RL carrots contain vitamins that are good for the eyes. Thus, the rumor that if you eat carrots you will have good eyesight in old age.

I know... but Eltsac isn't good at linking vitamines and rumors to magic in wizard lessons

For the weight... I don't know, didn't check all of them, but I know for exemple if I skin the animals to get the hides I need for my druid spells, they weight 2 pounds each.

El

Most components do weight very little as Gwain rightly said. For example, one yuan-ti eye weighs less than 0.1 lb so you see no change in your score by adding one or two components to a spell pouch. There are a handful that weigh more like the hides from skinned animals or the old darts used for arrow spells.

The weight issue generally comes from stocking up on larger quantities which everyone does to a certain extent. I tend to keep around 10-15 of the things I know I use more frequently with the exception of manure and flasks of water which I keep more of, just because I dislike going on gathering trips often. Lirith's spellpouch weighs 65 lbs (!), but part of it is my own fault for liking to keep usable amounts of a vast selection.

It may have changed and I am not aware, but don't spellpouches make anything you put in them weigh nothing, thus the enforcement of only components being allowed in them back in the day?

Isaldur wrote:It may have changed and I am not aware, but don't spellpouches make anything you put in them weigh nothing, thus the enforcement of only components being allowed in them back in the day?

Speaking on behalf of my druid, who carries 10+ deer hides for a certain spell, no... spell pouches do not make things weigh zero.

Isaldur wrote:It may have changed and I am not aware, but don't spellpouches make anything you put in them weigh nothing, thus the enforcement of only components being allowed in them back in the day?

It has been changed a long time ago
If I remember well, it has been removed because people were abusing it, puting heavy armor or such in the spellpouch.

El.

I'm just offering my experience as a gauge to compare against. I don't really know how the game is balanced, so I don't have any worthwhile suggestions.

I started playing my cleric a few months ago. Once I was inducted into a religion, a boatload of spells opened up to me. Yay!

Sort of. Some of the spells available are truly awesome and/or useful. Some, I still can't find trainers for. No worries, I have lots of spells to choose from...

A good number of those spells require odd components. Like silver wire. I've never even seen silver wire. So... needless to say, I'm not going to memorize that, am I? Other spells look ridiculously awesome, like 'Make Whole'. How useful! But I choked on my coffee when I saw the component list. If I had all those things, I wouldn't need a 'Make Whole' spell, would I? I WOULD JUST FIX IT MYSELF. Instead, I made a list of mobs who can fix my stuff. Still, I wish I hadn't trained it so high.

So I have a list of handy useful spells I regularly employ. Anything with odd components I can't easily get, I just don't use.

I heard the argument that trying to get components can spark roleplay. It doesn't. At least for me. And the roleplay I've seen tends to go like this: "Where can I find X?" "You can get it at (place)." Component hunter leaves.

There are one or two components I've been looking for, because the domain spells they fuel seem really integral to my faith. 'Locate object' failed to find them in the game, and the folks I've been asking have been unable to help me out (so far). All in all... a mild irritation.

So... to sum up. If your average new priest or mage is like me, he's just going to use spells with components that are east to come by.

Hehe, make whole is not really for mundane items. I trained/level it to replace the ungoddly prices for the rare moments I have to repair magical stuff. Cannot think of anyone that learned it to patch up generic leather or cloth gear, at least after they were aware of the components involved.

Odd components, they are out there. Silver wiring, for example, has a very common method of attaining it... and its not a shop! Granted there are some components that are not worth the effort to gather. And I still believe temples should stock components used in that faith's domain spells, on a faith-only vendor of course, so priests have access to at least one or two high end spells easily.

Components spark RP... well, for Gilain it does. But I can see where some might disagree.

I do agree quite a few folks may train 100 spells, but only use 10-20 because of various component related issues. Then again, I know some learn spells because it looks cool but they never find a use for it in-game, such as insanity (I know I have). *shrug*