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Eh... I guess allowing it to be manually added to your PC's description would be entirely up to the Staff, but I wouldn't care, so long as I am not expected to do it with my PC or respond any differently than he would normally to PC's that go along with it.

I try to see it from both sides.

If I'm being intellectually honest, the only thing I see from the side against this is: "I don't want anyone to treat my PC with the charisma that they actually have because I think I can portray them as having a higher score without paying for it."

I'll give you a different example:

Bob's PC's Charisma is 18. Bob completely sucks at making arguments. Bob gets upset because Bob's PC doesn't automatically convince my character to do something even though Bob and his PC's combined persuasion totally sucked. Bob refers to his PC's 18 Charisma, I am forced to either acknowledge that or the force of the actual RP at hand. I'd rather not have to consider that possibility at all, let alone make the actual decision, but actually play with Bob instead of Bob's numbers.

If I'm being intellectually honest, I don't see anyone who is for this that isn't saying: "I want to invest in a number that allows me to muscle people around without actually having to play smart or hard to do it."

Kallias wrote:the only thing I see from the side against this is: "I don't want anyone to treat my PC with the charisma that they actually have because I think I can portray them as having a higher score without paying for it."

I don't think it's particularly fair to basically accuse everyone who disagrees with you of trying to cheat the system, and I don't think this is a reasonable characterisation of the arguments raised in this thread.

My objection, such as it is, is simply that I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with this number. How do I react differently to a character with 18 chr compared to a character with 14 chr, or 8 chr? Am I supposed to, as Hrosskell suggested, infer that things happened differently than they actually did?

I'm not the world's best RP'er, but I think in general, I manage to convey the personality and behaviour of the character I've chosen to play. If I'm not quite sure how my character would react in a given situation, the result might come across as ham-fisted or trite, but in general I believe my RP matches my characters' concepts and "soft" stats (int, wis and chr).

I don't always get it right, of course. That's the downside of writing a story in real-time: you don't get to go back and re-write the bits you don't like. But when I do get it wrong, I try to learn from it, and do better next time. You know what I don't want? Someone saying "Hmm, I don't really believe what your character is saying, but since you have chr 18 I'll go along with it". To me, that feels more like cheating than RP'ing the "wrong" chr.

I play characters with a fairly narrow range of alignments: CN, N, NE and CE. Why? Because those are the alignments I enjoy playing, but more importantly, they're the alignments I can play. My next character is not going to be a paladin of Tyr, because even if my PC was LG with 18 chr, I, as a player, could not RP a convincing paladin. So rather than expect other people to adapt to my poor RP based on a number, I simply don't do that RP.

In short, if you want people to react as if you have a high chr, RP having a high chr. If you feel that other people are not RP'ing their charisma... well, does it actually matter that much in the end?

(I wouldn't be opposed to other incentives for people to increase chr; for example, perhaps normally aggressive monsters might not attack someone with a high enough chr?)

I can't say for certain whether or not I RP my characters with appropriate charisma. My newest character is a genasi that started out with a charisma of 8. I assume this is because she's scary to average person, perhaps even ugly for her half-bred nature. But, does this mean she is any less eloquent with words? I mean, she is intelligent and wise. These two play a pivotal role in how people react to her. Since charisma isn't the only stat that influence RP, these two would need to be listed if you are worried about whether people are RPing appropriately or not. And, I most certainly am not for sharing all stats.

Furthermore, what is charismatic to some is not charismatic to all. Some see past the genasi's difference since they have their own and might, I daresay, even find her charming for other reasons entirely.

I operate under the assumption that most actual people do not have an 18 in any stat. It's easy to play an 18 STR, DEX, or CON, because I don't have to actually lift an anvil or catch an arrow or survive a dose of nightshade.

Mental and social stats are tougher to roleplay, but I think there's a difference between WIS/INT and CHA. WIS/INT have an impact of what my character is capable of internally - discerning the right course of action, coming up with a brilliant plan, etc. CHA, conversely, has an impact on how my character is perceived by others. I don't see an easy way to make INT or WIS easier to RP.

But I do think there's an easy way to make it easier for CHA to influence RP. It is the *only* social stat - and I would like to be able to take it into account in my social interactions. If I can see other people's CHA, that cues me in to be more or less fascinated, easy to convince, etc. It shouldn't control me - but it should influence me. Right now, it doesn't influence me at all, because I have no way of knowing when or how it should.

Amalia wrote:Right now, it doesn't influence me at all, because I have no way of knowing when or how it should.

This sentence deserves to be read a second time.

My proposal initially was to enhance Charisma's value. Currently all it does is unlock three quests and give the player the ability to use certain adjectives in their description...which is in no way uniform or enforced. (sans bards)

Having CHA visible to other players makes the attribute tangible. There is currently no penalty for using CHA as a dump stat, because you always have the ability to just ignore what your character is in social interactions with others...and since they are unable to see the score, are forced to ignore it as well.

It also effects how much merchants pay you for items or how much they charge you for items

Sadly, there is a limit to how much code can reasonably handle "soft" traits like charisma. Some manifest consequences of it are coded, but most are not. However many such coded consequences are in place, people who just look at mechanics are going to label some stats as dump stats, whichever yield the least in terms of coded benefit. I don't see a way around that, though I reject the midset.

In an ideal world, people would be able to, and actually would, RP their CHA accurately. But as others have already nicely explained, some use their OOC CHA in excess of their PCs coded value, and others lack the OOC CHA to live up to their coded value...and in any case it is going to be a judgement call what number goes with how much of "it", as in you've got "it."

I can sympathize with Tyson's argument that there are going to be pairs of players who want to know the other's PCs stat and react accordingly. But they don't want to ask someone "What's your CHA?" because it is both OOC and potentially unwelcome. I don't see putting it there at the head of one's description as a way around that. It's just like blurting out "I have a CHA of 18" on first meeting someone.

In short, I see a problem; it wouldn't be a problem in an ideal world; we don't live in an ideal world; but I don't see this (putting the numerical value at the head of one's DESC) as a viable fix, or even an improvement, sorry to say. I like the CONSIDER angle suggested earlier in this thread much better, even though it would require hard code.