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I throw my vote in on meditate being a standard for wizards. Upon creation a wizard knows standard cantrips, it's not unfathomable that he/she would also thus know how to meditate from wherever along the road they picked up these handy little spells. To further my point, meditating for wizards is actually studying. They are sitting there writing/memorizing/gesturing their spell-lot for the day. People know how to study. (A cleric, on the other hand meditates in a fashion where he/she must sit down peacefully to pray to, or commune with, a god to earn the favor of holy powers. This type of focused connection to a higher power should be taught.)

As for scribe: Being a wizard is hard, but I think this would way over compensate for that difficulty. I imagine the ability to scribe scrolls as being a learned process as well, and one that takes a certain skill. Same for brewing, but this is something I would like to see more availability for. Potions are seriously underused mostly because they're too few and far between. Maybe brew should be a mid-level thing, and have a quest out there to obtain. I imagine that guy in the basement of the school of wonder might know the inept basics of throwing some components together in a bottle without causing too much damage?

Gwain wrote:

Rhangalas wrote: - Open up brew, meditate, and scribe at level 1 for wizards. (They would still have to find a trainer.)

I would agree with brew and meditate, but I've seen enough evidence to not open scribe to anyone beyond special peer-to-peer training. The only way I could see otherwise would be to remove the ability to learn from scrolls. There's been a lot of abuse and continues to be some contention with learned content. I'm all for more instances of trainers for rarer spells and prayers or quest rewards being these, but no, I don't want wizards to have a scribable way to teach on the outset, everything else sounds good though.

I don't agree with this. Scribe is already hard to get for most people unless someone likes you enough, and it can be meta-game setup. I'm tired of seeing spells be hoarded away like dragons treasure. It's time to open things up, and get spells out in the open, instead of making it harder. There is no point in just letting one, or two have it. We need trainers that are not biased, and let things go.

Brew, and scribe all take a lot of time. I spent one full afternoon(6 hours, or so) to brew one batch of 10 potions with 3 potions in bottles. The cool down time kills makes it take a very long time, and scribe can be the same way. 6 scrolls of a level 9 prayer took me over 5 hours. Components, scrolls, and cool-down can kill this skill too. Meditation factors into this as well. Nobody wants to sit around for that amount of time to get things out. It used to be that things could be easily abused, but that has been long past, and continues to change every day. This game is getting to the point where things are tucked away and sat on, because things are unavailable. I think to continue making the game more functional things need to be opened, and trainers need to be more acceptable. If we all weren't so worried about items, and spells, it would leave a lot of openings for better RP, and less searching/meta-gaming.

I'm more concerned about players learning powerful and devastating spells easily through scribe and being able to pass those on with ease to other players that have been known to abuse them or use them only to hurt other players. For me it comes down to pvp. Scribe currently lets you scribe domain spells and spells of all levels in order to teach them to other player characters, that is a lot of power and has lots of room for misuse which I have observed with increasing frequency from several players in and outside of pvp. But, that is something for another forum thread to discuss, I apologise for being side-tracked. I am all for increasing the power and viability of wizards, all except for one idea seems the best course for me.

Tyeslan wrote:Brew, and scribe all take a lot of time. I spent one full afternoon(6 hours, or so) to brew one batch of 10 potions with 3 potions in bottles. The cool down time kills makes it take a very long time, and scribe can be the same way. 6 scrolls of a level 9 prayer took me over 5 hours. Components, scrolls, and cool-down can kill this skill too. Meditation factors into this as well. Nobody wants to sit around for that amount of time to get things out. It used to be that things could be easily abused, but that has been long past, and continues to change every day.

Exactly. It's almost impossible to abuse now, which is why I recommended opening it at level 1 for wizards. Of course it would take one person a lot of time to brew 3x potions, much less 10 of them, but if there are several players able to brew at least one 1x potion, then potions would become more available.

I do agree that scrolls can be and are abused, mostly because there is no boundary between Divine/Arcane magic, if scrolls with prayers could no longer be learned from by wizards and vice versa, then it probably wouldn't be too much of a problem. It's mainly abused because domains are automatically granted and some domain prayers are very rare/powerful spells for wizards.

Is there a reason why wizards -shouldn't- have access to these rare and powerful spells? I don't understand why people are citing this as a problem. Gwain, you're mentioning possible abuse in pvp situations. I submit that people who play towards a goal of pvp, will do that regardless of whether they have the rarest spells or not.

Tyeslan wrote:It's time to open things up, and get spells out in the open, instead of making it harder. There is no point in just letting one, or two have it. We need trainers that are not biased, and let things go.

We've had a lot of elitist mentality in the past, and while it's changing for the better, I think this is a remnant of that. I don't feel spells and skills should be limited this way. Our way creates more RP than the tabletop way of just granting skills, spells, feats, without a search. But when it goes so far as to make spells, skills, or feats unobtainable to those 'not in the know' or those that are the wrong alignment or just don't get along with that one PC teacher that knows it, that's not a good thing.

Meditation should definitely be available at level one, in my opinion. Scribe and brew are not really useful till later levels, with more spell slots, but I would like to see them available by level 11.

Nylo wrote:Is there a reason why wizards -shouldn't- have access to these rare and powerful spells? I don't understand why people are citing this as a problem. Gwain, you're mentioning possible abuse in pvp situations. I submit that people who play towards a goal of pvp, will do that regardless of whether they have the rarest spells or not.

Tyeslan wrote:It's time to open things up, and get spells out in the open, instead of making it harder. There is no point in just letting one, or two have it. We need trainers that are not biased, and let things go.

We've had a lot of elitist mentality in the past, and while it's changing for the better, I think this is a remnant of that. I don't feel spells and skills should be limited this way. Our way creates more RP than the tabletop way of just granting skills, spells, feats, without a search. But when it goes so far as to make spells, skills, or feats unobtainable to those 'not in the know' or those that are the wrong alignment or just don't get along with that one PC teacher that knows it, that's not a good thing.

Meditation should definitely be available at level one, in my opinion. Scribe and brew are not really useful till later levels, with more spell slots, but I would like to see them available by level 11.

You say we have had? It's still there

Level 11 sounds fair... I would even go so far as to suggest that brew and scribe be crafts instead of class skills. So, you just learn the craft at whatever level you are able to. The crafting feats would be applicable then, allowing for more specialized alchemists/scribes. The normal fees and downtime for crafting would also come into play, so abuse would be minimal.

More availability for everything would be great, though this is really a separate discussion. I don't see brewing/scribing making it easier for newbies to make it past the first 10-15 lvls of being a wizard, especially if it becomes a craft that requires hours to days IRL to complete. They are still among the most advanced mechanics of the game, and it seems unlikely for a new player to usefully exploit them.

Rhang, I understand that you have extensive experience with starting wizard PCs, but you are really not the target of my discussion. Experienced players such as we know a million and one shortcuts to make the early grind easier, it is simply not comparable to someone starting out. No, I don't like my own idea of a kismet restriction for the class. But I don't think merely having meditate at lvl 1 and screw/scribe at lvl 11 will make the difficulty of the class tolerable enough to not immediately dissuade a large percentage of fresh players either. Now if we implemented the entire gamut of suggestions from your post: getting back familiars and removing guild restrictions, etc, then we might be getting somewhere. But I have no faith that such a vast revamp would ever actually be made, which is why I do not suggest it in the first place.

Lastly, I somewhat agree that domain spells should not be scribable, or that divine scrolls should not be learnable by arcanists. I think having spell availability as a restriction adds some interesting dynamics to FK lacking in standard DnD.

A bit of an alarmist on my part, I'll admit that. I agree with those changes to scribe for wizards and priests, As for pvp situations I think the issues experienced a while ago have not surfaced again. Though not my prerogative I like to look at all possibilities for problems.

Another thing I'd venture to add, would be more teachers or those willing to spend kismet on teaching feats would be a welcome addition, especially to races, faiths and classes that currently have few options. Its a fun rp and could help wizards understand the roleplay logic of spells and give them these spells.

I have never really understood the "harder is better" approach that we seem to adore. I've created a number of wizards over the many years and meditate isn't really that useful at low levels except to "level" it up to grandmaster when it will be useful at the later levels. Given that meditate levels up fairly easily that wouldn't give much advantage anyway.

Rhang, being better prepared for high level areas only really comes into effect when you're high level enough, which generally means more spells. In general, as a caster, more spell slots = more castings = more skill usage = more skill levels. While with what you are saying it can essentially come down to the same thing mathematically, it only adds up if the player has the determination to stay on after that many hours of grind.

The exclusive club of powerful spells may have been a good idea when FK had the playerbase to support that idea to create the uniqueness. Right now it's probably hard to find more than 2 wizards online at the same time.

I don't agree with harder is better, but I do realize that the game has to present progressive accomplishments or it gets boring. In the end, the equation here needs to be: comfortable for young wizards (on account of new players), progressive for wizards, and balanced with other classes. I have not played a spellcaster since 1998 (and it was not a wizard) and that may have been my only time doing so, so I am clearly not the one with perspective on the wizard's plight. Still, I know that any argument made for changes should include mention of those three categories because those are the things that Mask will probably consider in making his decision.

Llanthyr wrote:In general, as a caster, more spell slots = more castings = more skill usage = more skill levels. While with what you are saying it can essentially come down to the same thing mathematically, it only adds up if the player has the determination to stay on after that many hours of grind.

The more spell slots, to use more spells, to improve more formula wasn't working, it was just creating a grind after the grind. People were simply leveling too fast.

If they don't stay, they don't. I don't think we should start making it so easy that fresh characters are handheld all the way through the part of the role that is supposed to be trial and error. It is what being a wizard is all about. It is general knowledge that wizards are the most difficult class to play early on, it should stay that way in my opinion.

Rhangalas wrote:People were simply leveling too fast.

So based on what I've been told, one player was able to powerlevel a character to 50 within a week, and there was sudden hysteria and the nerfhammer was thrown at exp gain in general.

Just out of curiosity though, what class was this character? Fighter? Cleric? Even wizard seems doable since once you get past the starting levels it ramps up extremely fast, and there are a ton of exploitable mechanics for those with the know-how.

But what about the rangers, bards, and thieves. Why nerf exp gain for everyone when there were already classes struggling to get along? I have been trying to train a ranger for the past year, and have basically given up on the endeavor. How many high level rangers are currently active in the game? By my count approximately zero.

Second question: okay, so the most experienced players are able to get to maximum level (just the first step to a very long journey towards being competitive with real powerful PCs, mind you). Who is that hurting exactly? As I've said before, the general setup of the game world is that the higher level you are, the more in-game content is opened up for you. A lvl 50 is able to do more quests, learn more spells/skills, explore more area. Just the improved stamina makes it better than having to rest every 10 steps in the wilderness like a level 12. We don't have much content geared towards lower level PCs, and none that are available to them exclusively (unless you count starting areas). That being the case, what is our motivation for keeping people at low levels? You mentioned something about PCs getting to high levels without the appropriate skills befitting an experienced character. To me this "fix" only worsens that. Training skills cost a ton of exp, and with exp being so much harder to acquire, I am even more motivated to train the absolute minimum number of skills and spells possible while grinding to 50.

And finally: assuming we've decided we want people to stay at lower levels for longer, why was it implemented such that the earliest levels become the most painful to advance? I had a level 40 cleric post nerf, and getting to level 50 was almost as easy as before. But getting from 1 to 10 has become an unimaginable pain in the ass. This hurts no one more than the newbies we are trying to welcome into the game. Surely the least we could do is shift the exp requirement increase to higher levels, say 30+

Rhangalas wrote: It is general knowledge that wizards are the most difficult class to play early on, it should stay that way in my opinion.

Is this FK general knowledge? Should we be expecting new players to come into the game with this sentiment in mind? In pen and paper D&D wizards are not difficult to start, unless for some unfathomable reason you are going solo. You've got your ally tanks in the front lines protecting you, and you've got level 1 crowd control spells like Sleep that decimate whole encounters of early level monsters. Furthermore, unless your DM is an ass, he is not going to make things unduly painful for anyone, regardless of class.

And that is even assuming the newbie has a background in D&D. In any modern game, the spellcasting classes tend to be just as strong as any other class at any stage of the game.

My first character was a wizard. Granted that whatever changes to EXP are in place now were not then, but even still. I didn't focus on grinding for levels, because it's a role-play focused game. I concerned myself with that and the levels just came naturally.

With that said though, the changes to EXP gain do not seem to be quite so severe. I obviously can't speak from a new player's perspective, but I've scarcely noticed a difference between then and now. It just seems more sensible that things your character isn't experiencing anything new from, IE dummies much lower than you, don't make them gain experience.

Isolrem: wizards in tabletop(Which I've never played) aren't that easy to level up unless you're going solo. I think that's a really strong point, it rings true in Forgotten Kingdoms as well. A wizard off adventuring in a party is gong to have a much easier time leveling up and surviving, while a wizard trying to go it solo is going to have a very difficult time. I'd point out, too, that a requirement to fully join a wizard's guild is to go through the School of Wonder which has an entire lesson about this.

With no amount of hyperbole, I only realised Forgotten Kingdoms was based on D&D around two months into playing. Yet even without an SRD to reach for and tell me how/what things should be, I would have found it very strange if a wizard was capable of standing toe-to-toe with a fighter early on. In fact, I'd have been put off and disappointed. It's a large reason I don't go and play World of Warcraft or what have you, it's boring(to me) when characters are put and stay on this flat playing field. In my opinion a wizard, whose power is based on knowledge, should not have as good a chance of surviving that goblin encounter alone as a fighter; at least not until they've learned to properly throw death out of their hands.

And at the risk of stepping on his toes, I believe what was being said was that if you "speed level" your character to 50 your skill levels will take a hit, as they go up from use. A level 50 wizard no spells above apprentice skill level is a sad sight. Your response of learning fewer skills makes for a more focused PC. Nobody is/should be master of all.

(Everything as stated above is only the opinion and view of one player, not incontestable fact.)
-Althasizor

Right now its a lot better than it used to be. One thing I do miss is seeing the percentage of exp left until the next level that used to show up in score or when you typed level. I always felt that it was comforting to see a solid number and not an unchanging abstract haiku about how I'm almost to my next level. Hope is tangible when you see a numeric percentage.

While I would like to take the discussion further about possible efforts in retaining new players as well as agree with Isolrem on a couple of points he raised, this seems to be drifting further away from the topic.

In summary:
1. We agree that starting a wizard is not easy, continuing to play one may not be as easy either
2. We may or may not be interested in making things "easier" for new characters / new players
3. Some essential wizardly skill spread to lower levels may entice people in playing wizards

With the above in mind, a 100 accumulated kismet for creating a wizard hardly seems unfair.

Points for kismet implementation:
- This allows for players to get used to the FK system. Specifically: the stats required for levelling, skill training, surviving; the areas that are "safe" for levelling and for getting some necessary coin;
- Addressing point 1, a wizard isn't easy and won't be new player friendly.
- Addressing point 2, without changes I don't see things improving for a new player aside from some frustration build up.
- Addressing point 3, let's assume that scribe and brew are equivalent to a thief's "steal" skill. Since the kismet for rogues (as I understand) was implemented for the potential abuse of that skill, this gives a valid point to implement a kismet requirement similarly for wizards.

Points against kismet implementation:
- A new player who wants to play a wizard may be turned off by this. With regards to the challenges of playing a new character and a wizard on top of that, I wouldn't count on this point to make a strong case.

Hi! I'm a new player and my first character ever was a mage character. I still play her as she is really the only character I played and developed. Being a new player and playing one of the most difficult character classes in the game is challenging. And it was frustrating but I liked it. I am going to toss out the elephant in the room since I have seen it more than once happening. I have seen people merge information with alts. I'm struggling to find components or spells or buy them from people who otell their friend that their newbie character needs gear and components. When I saw that, I stopped caring about leveling, getting better equipment and focused on role play. I know that these older players have a lock on a niche that I am not going to be able to move into. I like the idea of giving a new player as much information as possible to play a mage and even the idea of kismet seems reasonable. Even an in-game mentor are all great ideas. I am interested to see how this progresses

I'd like to point out that the above post is made by among the very few characters in recent times that have stayed long enough to have a board presence, on a wizard character. And his method of dealing with the challenge appears to be giving up on the mechanical aspect of the game altogether. To me at least that rings some alarms.

Gwain wrote:Right now its a lot better than it used to be.

Yep.

To me, it seemed the frustration stemmed more from other PCs not helping their PC and then witnessing those same PCs using OOC connections to multiplay their way out of the same challenges their PC faced - whereas, they did not have such an option. Not the actual challenge of playing a wizard.

On the subject of meditate, have a new wizard deplete all of their spells then sit and regain them without it. Then have them do the same thing, but instead they get to regain them with meditate. I guarantee that they will say it was better the second time around, no matter what level they are.

As far as brew and scribe go, I think most are seeing it from a solo mentality, where the wizard does everything from mining the ore, smelting it, and precision forging it to get the desired item. If these skills/crafts were available from the start, it wouldn't help a level 1 wizard much by themselves, but the potions brewed by the level 15-30 wizards next door would. If your armor spells are now potions, what do you have? Free spell slots for more offensive spells. If you only have a few casts of magic missile, it does suck. But what if you have those same casts plus a few scrolls of lightning bolt? Sounds better to me. These "lowbie" potions and scrolls would allow unguilded wizards/unfaithed priests limited access to the spells they are unable to cast themselves. The current endgame status of the skills doesn't seem to be working anyway. Hardly anyone bothers with potions/scrolls (other than healing/learning) because they are too expensive/unavailable to be effective as dispensable items. What I was envisioning was affordable/available consumables.

I rescind my previous vote against kismet restrictions anyway. Better the devil you know.

Popping in to say that although I haven't played in months due to no time, my last character played was a human wizard. I wanted a drow wizard, too, to go with the lore, but a) it was a lot of kismet b) there's a shortage of components in Menzo, apparently.

I got killed twice, in spite of having around 1,5 year of experience in FK and an even longer experience with D&D. So I agree, wizards are really hard and either there should be an OOC warning or a kismet cost. Preferably both.

... and soon afterwards, my free time got diminished to zero, so I haven't played at all.