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I've never done tanning in game, but a lot of the points Gwain makes above can be said for weaponsmithing and armorsmithing, as well.

-(least important) PC-crafted armor does not include the material in the short desc and so the exotic materials look jjust like the mundane.
-A given armor type (e.g., brigandine, light mail...) requires a specific number of ingots per piece of armor, regardless of the size (i.e., tiny, medium, huge...) of the piece and its wear location (e.g., gauntlets require just as much metal as an entire breastplate).
-The point about needing the same quality leather is actually very similar to metalworking. One needs the same type of metal and ingots at all the same quality to make one piece. This does make sense to me, but getting 9 pieces of metal at the same quality as is required by some heavy armors is actually pretty difficult. I imagine skinning and tanning has some problems similar to smelting in this respect (e.g., according to my fairly extensive tests so far, GM smelting will end you up with nearing 75% low and average quality ingots, regardless of how much outstanding ore you start with, and anything over average is really hit-and-miss).
-And the most important one in my opinion. Since I've started crafting seriously on two of my characters, I've as good as stopped playing them. This isn't a complaint, as obviously nothing's forcing me to craft, but with the low rate of skill increase with these trades, if you don't do it constantly, you won't get decent with them in anything like a fair amount of time.

I don't mean to change the subject from tanning to metalworking or anything like that; rather, I mean to give my own experiences in hopes of reinforcing Gwain's points. The crafting system as a whole is in need of a hand or two.

As I mentioned, I think the required offline time for these trades is the most important issue at this time. It encourages smiths and tanners to stop playing their PCs and doesn't allow for more than, at best, one smote about starting to get to work just before logging off. The problem is finding a balance between making a single small piece of armor take over a game week to complete and the system we used to have, which as I understand it was much like lapidary, brewing, etc. is today, wherein smiths were producing hundreds of pieces of full plate armor in a few short RL hours.

I think there's a lot good going for crafting as it is. For one, it's given me just one more thing to work on. So far, it seems like the progression of learning new things to craft is very fair, and always exciting to see what new things I can make when I get a skill increase. We don't have novices crafting full plate, but nor are we having to wait for expert to be able to craft some of the more rare sorts of armors and weapons. It hasn't produced much IC interaction save bragging about what I learned now, but I expect once my crafters get better, I'll be producing things that people really do want, and that'll be a good thing for everyone.

I love player generated items as a massive part of the economy in most games. However, I have two crafters in game that never craft because of all the reasons above and some of my own.

So here's my offer of a fair-handed crafting system that gives us something to work on, something to RP about, and wouldn't take too much hard code modifications:

Make the trainers for trades offer rotational quests that involve RPing making items similar to how the current ranger guild quest line makes players RP the trade. Each time your do one of these quests and turn in the crafted object, you're rewarded with a little coin and some skill experience. These quests are repeatable, the qbit is automatically reset on the player when they return and start a new quest that is offered at random. As well, the quest giver will only offer the quest at a random rate, so we'll have to keep returning to see if he has another task for us. (This is something for anyone to learn to do and add to the game)

Now for the hard code adjustments ...
86 material qualities entirely. An iron ingot is an iron ingot. A skin of a deer is a skin of a deer.
Nix the cost for 'additional' materials by making use go gather those like a recipe. If we're making a spear, it should take 1/2 of an iron ingot, a straight limb, strings of catgut, any decoration item we wish to use.

adjust the construct command to accept decoration with color codes.

Keep the offline jaunt for those who want it but give us the option to RP through it online with a higher risk of failure and/or materials destruction.

I know those aren't crazy ideas because they already work in other game to the benefit of the game. As for enchanting, I like Kinni's idea about being able to pay for it being enchanted through an RMI like random roll chance. However, my caveat to this would be to allow enchanting as a trade for Enchanter's Guild members and require them to know spells to a certain level and have specific feats towards it. So we're talking about two different options, enchanters who can make us specialized enchants and NPCs who can give us random enchants based on cost, quest, and luck.

The reasons behind the two options, RP. The NPCs allow tradesmen to go get their master pieces enchanted for selling on the market to other adventurers. The PC version allows us to roleplay getting special armor or items enchanted for a specific purpose through special means. Both options create RP, both options have their uses, and both options are sound additions to our game.

Beskytter wrote: 86 material qualities entirely. An iron ingot is an iron ingot. A skin of a deer is a skin of a deer.

I'm not sure how I feel about this one, mostly because item quality does affect how well the item performs, so this would in a sense have inept crafters producing things that work just as well as those constructed by grandmasters. I personally enjoy the added realism of an inferior-quality piece of armor not protecting as well as a better made one, for instance. This would also render skill levels in smelting and tanning largely meaningless, except in determining which metals/skins can be smelted/tanned.

Perhaps a compromise between the two, where, similar to how journeyman smelters cannot roll a success at smelting and end up with anything less than inferior quality metal, master and higher levels in smelting and tanning could move more and more away from low quality output being an option. This would, eventually, result in a smaller range of possible material qualities (average on up to outstanding, in this example), and would in theory ease the process of collecting several pieces of similar quality materials some.

Beskytter wrote: Nix the cost for 'additional' materials by making use go gather those like a recipe. If we're making a spear, it should take 1/2 of an iron ingot, a straight limb, strings of catgut, any decoration item we wish to use.

I like this one. Would be a lot of work, but I believe I know more than a few who'd opt for this instead of paying however much platinum per construct.

Beskytter wrote: adjust the construct command to accept decoration with color codes.

Less important function-wise, I think, but ultimately most enjoyable for players. Man, what I'd pay/give for a full suit of custom crafted armor. I think this is what would make crafting a really profitable and interaction-driving force in the game. And it wouldn't render glory payments for renames useless, either, since as is we can't craft magical gear.

Beskytter wrote: Keep the offline jaunt for those who want it but give us the option to RP through it online with a higher risk of failure and/or materials destruction.

Also seconded. I'd choose the online increased failure rate over the offline decreased failure rate every time. Hmm.. Though, this might still present a problem with higher level crafters pumping out more items than what is ICly reasonable. An increased failure rate would matter less and less as the crafting skill increases. Unless it could somehow be kept constant with the skill level... Hm.

Beskytter wrote: However, my caveat to this would be to allow enchanting as a trade for Enchanter's Guild members and require them to know spells to a certain level and have specific feats towards it.

By "enchanter's guild," do you mean the wizard guild that focuses on charm and other mind-affecting magic, or an entirely new group similar to the merchant's guild we have now? I only ask because I know some tend to confuse the wizardly guild with what we call item enchantment and wanted to be sure I understand.

If it's the former you meant, I don't agree--something like the transmuter's guild would probably be more reasonable. But if the latter, that'd be awesome.

I can attest to the fact that material quality has less impact on end product quality. Great quality steel in the hands of a novice is just as bad as poor quality steel. Sub-par steel should never be worked with, no matter what your skill level, so material qualities really only serve to add a level of frustration rather than challenge.

So yes, I still suggest we 86 material qualities and base end product quality solely on the trade skill level. Novices should be producing low quality products regardless of the quality of materials. Masterwork goods will still take being a master or gm to make. This means that mining and smelting would produce a standard quality product, giving them less waste and providing more materials for sale to the market, increasing the availability and productivity of tradesmen characters. Mining, smelting, slicing, and tanning could potentially produce more product from the same amount of raw materials (or in the case of mining, gain more ore from a single strike) at higher levels of skill.

Decoration added in is actually an important aspect, because we can customize. Essentially establishing a demand for player crafted items, which would drive the economy forward.

Yes, I agree that the rate should scale with skill to a point. Grandmasters should be able to hammer out an outstanding quality spear in a short period of time without really trying. I just passed my master's certification in silversmithing IRL and I can knock out a stunning silver ring in a very short period of time without any failure. We've worked at our trade and mastered it, we should be able to produce with little to no failure. My caveat to this one would be masterwork quality items. They should always take offline time to work on. I can make a great ring in about fifteen to thirty minutes but I cannot make a master piece in that time, because it takes planning and proper preparation for master pieces.

Yes an "Enchanter's Guild" not connected to the wizard school, I suppose we'd need a different name for it but I see it being something wizards of any school would have to work hard to join to be called an 'Enchanter'. I'm sure such a guild would need some working and tweeking and such, but it's something RP into closer to max level.

What do you think about the trainer's idea above the hard code changes I suggested? I feel like just those alone could help alleviate some of the grumbling surrounding trades as they are and it should be quicker to implement than hard code changes, which should still be added but with the trainer change we could all likely wait a little longer for them to happen.

Beskytter wrote: ...material quality has less impact on end product quality. Great quality steel in the hands of a novice is just as bad as poor quality steel.

Aha, that makes sense. Apologies, I somehow forgot to consider crafter's skill when I wrote that bit

As for the quest idea, I think that could help somewhat if it were possible, depending on how random the chance for the quest triggering would be. I've never done the ranger quests you mentioned, so I have little to compare it to. Having the mob ask for things too often would make skill ups too easy, and not often enough would obviously be pointless.

But agreed, giving crafters a reason to construct something and not just scrap it as soon as it's done could go a long way in making players feel like they're really accomplishing something with these trades, even at times when no actual skill up is attained. A little extra skill experience on top of good feelings makes that idea something I'd love to be able to see people try out.

As far as enchanting items is concerned. Since this game treats brewing and scribing as skills even though they are feats in the tabletop. I see little wrong with treating, forge ring, craft magical arms and armor and craft wondrous item in the same way, not to mention craft wand and craft stave and then down the line craft construct.

The problem of course is that in the tabletop, a wizard will never actually be able to take all the feats an FK wizard usually does, and then take on these crafts as well.

easiest way would be to have these available on the skill list, and then have a quest for each like there is for mining / smelting etc. The crux being that you can only learn 2 or 3 before being locked out of the others.

These systems should be online, with the spell requisite that are detailed for each craft on the SRD. for example:
Strong varied; CL 19th; Craft Wondrous Item, cloak of chaos, magic circle against law, confusion, lesser, word of chaos, creator must be chaotic; Price 160,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

For people unfamiliar with the 3.5 crafting format, this means the item has a strong aura with a caster level of 19th itself, not that the creator has to be 19th level. The rest are requirements. Must have craft wondrous items, must know the spells detailed and be of the correct alignment etc.

Also taken from tabletop and something missing here is the xp cost of creating items. I believe almost all serious crafts in 3.5 cost xp to create. I don't see why this can't be used as a hoarding deterrent with wand making, staff making, and enchanting weapons / armor with the cap of that if you don't have enough xp at your level to pay for it, you can't do it.

Considering some of the xp costs I vaguely remember from the past. Depending on the stave i can see a level 50 caster here having to go get more xp after only a single successful crafting. of some of these items.

At worst this gives level 50 characters something active to do and a reason to go out and xp in groups for with the xp cost for crafting being increased / decreased till the right balance is attained.

I too feel that crafting needs some TLC. I can only attest to mining, smelting, and armor and weaponsmithing. Skill ups seem quite slow now ,maybe one ever 2 RL weeks or so, and that's not missing any days of making something. I however still like to play my character also, so I spend a little time on him and then am forced to go play an alt if I want any hope of ever getting decent at armorsmithing.

I don't really care either way about all of the different qualities of supplies. For mining and smelting it just helps practice and get the skill up in those trades respectively.

I would like to see a way to get armorsmithing to the journeyman level much easier though. Even at journeyman you can only make heavy mail, brigandine, and splint mail. It has taken months and months and I am not even at journeyman on Thurgan yet.

I would like to see a quest and upon completion would allow trade skill X to be trained to apprentice or journeyman. There is still a long way to go to GM from there at the current skill up rate.

All I really want is to make some mithril full plate for my dwarf. But by the looks of it, that's a loooooooooong ways off. I don't even care about it being masterwork at this point, I cant even fathom how long it would take hit master. My guess well over a year of not missing a day, and that's if luck is on your side.

Welp, as a player who just started trying to get on the craft train - I must agree on many of these points. The idea of not being to rp with players beause I am trying to craft something is truely quite irksome. And as I was talking to another player about it some things came to mind that really make thing not make sense, and some thing could be improved

1. We have to log off in the exact room - This is another aspect I feel doesn't make sense entirely. Okay, its' understandable if say your in a forest all the way across fauren, you can't really be around the forge you were working at. But at the very least, if your in the city where you began crafting, it should continue crafting (if you logged out). I forgot this and logged off just in front of Nalar store instead of inside. No progress was made obviously. If a char is in the city it should be reasonble to log out in a city where you began crafting and contine to craft in my opionen

2. As an addon to the higher failiure rate mentioned by other players who want to craft while online - have crafting still occure at the same IG rate, but only while at a forge while they are logged on. Like a timer that can be started and stopped. Basicly while online your only crafting while at the forge. Leave the forge OR get afked flagged, you stop crafting (since the point is to rp crafting). Return to the forge or come back from afk and you continue crafting where you left off. This gives the player the option to go off and rp on an adventure or take a break, or spend time at the forge rping with others who may also be forging.

Of course, I am not sure how difficult this would be to code. But I think a combination of the above could really help player who want to craft (and rp doing so).

But then that brings the actual Value of a crafted item. In general RMI pieces are quite a bit nicer than crafted items, even if they not magic. While a master crafter is able to apply for a TradeMark, I think perhaps going one step further wouldn't hurt.

Allow the crafter, perhaps once they reach a certain skill level, to actually desc the items they create. From coloring to style and even the extra desc. That way instead of just an 'Iron Heavy Shield' they could make 'A Shield Embossed with a Lion'. Acheiving a certain skill level first would at least help to ensure some quality control (so desc matches item quality). Or just have crafter follow the same rule that items must be desced in kind just like redescing with glory(low dagger can't be desced to be super sharp, iron can't become wood, etc)

I know that people can redesc items with glory. But most people will probably be doing that for magic items and not ordinary items, which is what most crafted items are. It would add a good personal touch.

Additionly to help avoid abuse, a few measures can be put in
1. A crafter can only desc an item they themselves have crafted
2. Once the item leaves their inventory (passed to another player or dropped) it cannot be altered
3.If they log out before descing the item, the item is considered desced as well (adding finishing touches to an item can be another avenue of rp)

Again, I do not know how hard such a system would be to implement or change. I certainly wouldn't know where to start coding or changing things. But figured it is something to suggest as I have seen such things used in other rp focused games

I'm not a user of the crafts system here because of how cumbersome it is, but is it out of the question for it to be done off screen? As in you get the materials and start the process at a forge. Then whether you're offline or online the timer keeps ticking and alerts you of problems whether you're in a forge room or not.

Mining, smelting and crafting are one of those activities I've never personally felt could ever be fun to roleplay out unless you were teaching. Crafting more than the other two. What are the smotes going to consist off? I've never heard of a smith having the presence of mind to be able to hammer out a sword and chat casually with a friend at the same time. These things I thought took concentration etc.

So to summarise. Mine and smelt can stay the same, but crafting would equal bringing materials to the forge and using the correct craft syntax then just walking away. The ticker makes your skill checks when appropriate and it's assumed all that time you spend Afk, All the time you're logged off or online but not adventuring / strictly rping is spent working on this and the result comes out the next day or the day after.

I do realize that it is supposed to take a long time to master different trades. But I feel there should be something special about dedicating so much time to trade. As already mentioned, any random piece of magical armor is better than anything you can make for the most part.

Here are a few ideas I have to improve the overall experience in regards to crafting, and this is specifically in regards to armorsmithing and weapon smithing but may also be applicable to other trades, as I am not familiar to a great extend with the other trades and many of the other trades you can do online like brew, scribe etc.

1) Allow crafters a free rename of anything made by them, by either allowing the person themselves do it, or via application. Or an alternate to this would be let a crafter spend say 10 glory and be allowed X number of renames for crafted items. Or tie renames to skill level, so maybe after journeyman your allowed 50 renames or whatever, and then at the master level you are allowed either a higher number or indefinite.

2) Change the skill level at which items are allowed to be made. It really does take a LONG time to be able to make full plate, or certain weapons. I am only a journeyman so I am not sure what lvl everything becomes available. But could everything become available to be made at the journeyman skill level?

My reasoning is that it still wont be top quality stuff, but you can at least make or try your hand at everything. It has been months and months of me making as many items as I can, with only having missed a day here and there. While I kind of like the aspect that it takes a while to master, this is a game, and at a certain point the fun starts to diminish.

3) Have a quest or maybe some rp events periodically with a trainer that would train up to a certain level, or train an individual a couple times or something along those lines. I'm not saying do one rp/imm event and then all of a sudden have someone be able to go from apprentice to grand master. But maybe train any person 3 times, so would take person A from apprentice to journeyman, but would take person B from adept to expert etc.

Everyone that dedicates anytime at all to the trades knows they take time and dedication to get good at let alone master.

I for one have spent time on two different characters to master mining and smelting, and also armorsmithing though have only reached journeyman in that. You cant even begin to make anything remotely approaching worthwhile until your really good at mining and smelting.

And lastly I would like to see what items are made of. Some items show by color like copper, or when dropped on the ground some items will show the metal. But for example I just made a set of mithril light mail and unless I were to identify it I would have no idea it was made of mithril. Color code looks just like iron or steel, and has no other identifying features otherwise. When worn it just looks like plain jane light mail.

Thurgan wrote:As already mentioned, any random piece of magical armor is better than anything you can make for the most part.

So in my opinion the first point to address is this. I think it would be nice to let PC's enchant weapons.

More in general I would be quite liberal in making trades easier and more accessible and also I would seriously think about shifting the whole personalized item matter from glory to PC-managed crafting.

It would also be nice for many already implemented items to get a production recipe and be made craftable by PC's.

Does FK still actually have a coder? I seem to recall Mask (the only one of which I'm aware) having a baby and going on hiatus for at least a short time.

The reason I ask is because there is post after post after post here of code change discussions and I don't recall ever seeing anyone with code access chiming in to discuss the actual feasibility of a change or whether or not such a change is in line with the vision of the game.

Or for that matter, ever seeing a published statement of the vision of the game.

Mask still actively updates hard code despite not often wading into a very lively suggestions forum. There are other staffers who can handle aspects of hard code, but he has the ultimate access.

The published statement of the game is on the home page of the mud as far as I can tell. It is also detailed on the Mud connector entry.

home page wrote: The game's rules are based upon the d20 Pathfinder® system...

Bestest game ever!

To contribute I wanted to reference this thread;
viewtopic.php?f=77&t=20230&p=130613&hil ... nt#p130613

I think if crafting is going to be relevant and contribute to the game in any significant way it should create or be a mechanic by which the game offers items and roleplay unique to the time invested in it. The major reason PCs in dnd take up crafting is often so they don't have to suffer as badly with random loot, further optimising their character by making specific items and finally to cut the price of buying the item in half or even down to about 15% which is possible in 3.5. The crafting here as far as I know, does none of these things or does them inaffectually and I think before discussing the various finishing touches like when and where it takes place it would be good to take a step ack and define what we think the system should actually do and provide.

For me and this platform of a mud. To FK specifically since it is a game with hardline restrictions like guild specific mundaine skills, I would like to see the system create items either completely unique to it, or that are very difficult to gain elsewhere.

I think the path to creating magical arms and armor is a hard one because the random magical quest rewards have already flooded that market and for armor smithing to stay relevent work would need to be put into the system to allow it to inovate unique items in the form of craftable specific bonuses like shadow armor. Or craftable specific customization like has been suggested above. i don't believe it need cost glory or kismet. Simply attach an incredibly high gold price and a more moderate experience cost to creating these items like there is in 3.5 since at the moment, a common theme I'm spotting is that apparently no one has anything to spend their money on quite early on. Ditto with the redundancy of experience at level 50 other than a raise dead buffer. There may as well be an active use for them.

As in the referenced thread however, where I think crafting will shine most is in creating more niche items that would not be as popular among adventurers in the west and central heartlands since these places are based significantly off medieval europe etc. Katana, kodachi, Brawler's wear, heavier wooden armor, magical clubs, whips, lines, rope weapons and so on.

This would I think make these items available but in the rarity they represent due to their relative inpopularity off europe faerun. I wouldn't like to see Wakizashi or Nodachi held in the hands ov the majority of adventurers but would be those jobs you seek out a specialist for because their not widely available.

As for enchanting items, I believe I've more or less stated my stance and ideas for them in the linked thread.

In reference to the recent mithril armor discussion that popped up. i felt it worth mentioning here more so than there that after going out into the woods with an axe and not being able to get even a single piece of scrap wood for a quest that perhaps one of the first things that should be considered when the crafting system is being looked at is the relative difficulty in gaining even the lowest quality materials.

Simply put, I'd like to be able to get scrap wood, or scrap ore without knowing the trades since there are still uses for them and ignoring the fact that you need to wield an axe type weapon since I don't mind that so much. I can't see anyway you'd head into a forest with or without an axe and not come back with at least a branch or a twig.

As amusing as flying and gating around to find the rooms that load pieces of wood and bark some of the time vs all of the time... well. I hope the point comes across alright.

You can get wood, you just may not be trying in the correct places. Generally speaking you just cant be on the world map.

You can get ore without knowing the mining trade, it's just not worth doing since the failure rate is kinda high. It's not overly difficult to learn the mining trade, or to meet someone that has ore for sell. Without the mining trade skill you only have a marginal chance for success, with it things improve substantially.

But like most any of the trades, you can attempt to do any of them without the skill , you just probably wont like the results.

My only real qualms with the trades after doing them for so long are really only a very few things:
1) increase availability of being able to learn the trades. Mining, smelting, fletching and weaponsmithing are all easily learnable by anyone. Armorsmithing I only know of one way for certain to learn it. Tanning, leatherworking, and woodworking I am largely uncertain of as I have never found a teacher.
2) items made by master/grandmaster tradesmen should be better than most anything else commonly available, and "special" items such as adamantine, mithril, and elven steel etc should have all of their srd bonuses/benefits.
3) I wish you could make progress on a project while logged in at the project's location. (of everything this one of the things I would love to see changed the most)

Outside of those things, I either like the way it is or have just grown to accept it. The current system does indeed make it a challenge to get to a skill level that is worthwhile, that is both a good and a bad thing. The last thing I would want to see is practically every character a grandmaster in the trades. That in my opinion would ruin what makes them special. It truly does take a lot of time to get good at them, and for the people that have put that time in it is truly an accomplishment.

All trades take time to master, some more than others. Woodworking and fletching for example, you can buy all of the materials you need to make items from npc merchants. Leatherworking materials can be acquired easily and readily, though it takes time to get good. But when it comes to armor and weapon smithing, you have to master 2 other trades before you can really even get remotely good.

I think a lot of the dislike of the trades come from people who have put in a lot of time to master them, but did not dedicate feats towards the trades. The feats do indeed make a substantial difference. So if your trying to place a craftsman style character but skimp of the trade feats.....well, yeah.

Just like RL anyone can pick up a hobby and do a mediocre to piss poor job at crafts, but its a very rare person who is very talented at it.

All of that aside, there is a new area in the works that I am writing where I hope to address some of these issues in part. It might still be a while before its ready due to work and other RL matters, but it is coming.

To clarify, I know where to get wood. I just thought it weird that you can go out with an axe into what is clearly a forest and not get any wood objects for quests and such that ask for it. World map or no.

In other games at level 1 you can and are sometimes encouraged to do just this as a way of selling your scraps for starting money and its probably a sign of how blind we sometimes get to the small things like this.

Which is why in the mithril thread, I hope it was noted that I was pushing that if / when the crafting system gets worked on. we need to be careful to look at the whole picture and include everything needed, such as farming resources, ore, wood, hide, gems, cloth (cotton, silk, wool) for a weaver's trade so we can finally have that mythical basketweave armor, plants for herbalism etc...

Its not just how crafting is done, but also these base resources, how easy or difficult they should be to get that need to be considered carefully. Not to mention if any involvement magic and magical crafting should be incorperated or if that should be a different system entirely.

So I just went around to about 10 different areas. Both on the world map and in areas. I had zero issues chopping wood. I would say based on this very quick testing that there is no scarcity of obtaining wood as a raw material.

Every other raw material I can think of is also easily sourced as appropriate, different ores, gems, skins etc. As far as obtaining cloth, I have no idea. If one can even make cloth there is certainly an abundance of silk in the game that I would think could be used.

Sure there a few trades, such as herbalism etc than need some TLC. My suggestion for that is to spend a little time learning how to do the coding and putt in an application to work on it.

I see, how odd. 2 chars were choppping for about 20 minutes with no luck but appropriate echoes to let us know there was a chance of getting lumber actually there. Guess it was the area.

Crafts are not my forte though, I only mention those others because whenever someone does app for or an existing admin looks at the forum to see what players would like. I think it's important to mention that the issue should be tackled from the ground up. Instead of fixing things with specific trades, and ground up begins with farming resources that those trades are based on.