Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Having studied and been taught a large number of trade skills IRL I can say that some people know how to do the thing they're doing, and some actually know how to teach it. There truly is a big difference in trade skill learning than book skill learning.

As a certified journeyman silversmith, I can easily make silver and gold jewelry and set stones in it... however, I would definitely find it difficult to teach you how to do it because it's just difficult to teach anyone such a thing for me.
As a trained chef with a wide variety of experience under my belt and plenty of leadership experience, I could teach you how to cook because I've done that already.

These two IRL examples hopefully give an idea to what I'm suggesting with the teacher feat. Just because you're a master of the trade doesn't mean you're a good teacher of that trade. I can make you a diamond wedding ring, but I couldn't figure out how to teach you to do it. I can make you a seared rare fillet mignon on a steel cut oat risotto in a red wine reduction espagnole, and because I've taught someone how to make such a thing I'm fairly confident I could show most people how to make that dish.

The d&d example for brewing and magic is the book version, my personal version is little more in depth and I'm more than willing to PM that to you if you'd like to hear it. As for the timing on where we're agreed, I'm all for a reasonable time that the coders feel fits into the game best. If 5 secs is a good fit, go for it, if it's 15 secs, by all means make it so ensign.

All in all, we're beginning to see the same side of the page which is good! It means we've hashed something out without resorting to rock/paper/scissors/lizard/Spock and /I told you so/'s.

Beskytter wrote:Having studied and been taught a large number of trade skills IRL I can say that some people know how to do the thing they're doing, and some actually know how to teach it. There truly is a big difference in trade skill learning than book skill learning.

Oh I'm not arguing as to what teaching requires in the slightest, I've been down that path and been almost 100% defeated on this forum I think. I'still hold to my opinion because in 80% of cases I've almost always learnt bettter from books than I have from people.

I simply thought that you didn't need to be able to teach someone to be a good assistant. Like how a good PA after 20 years of work may not be able to teach a CFO or CEO they're job, but without them, they'd definitely have a reduced efficiency roll at the end of the quarter. As compared to a PA that could teach not technically having any better of an understanding but could train a new one if asked. I saw them as different skills entirely since in this example, the former is going to do as good work as the latter when assistin.

To summerise I believe that all skilled teacher's in a trade can assist, but not all skilled assistants can teach and that teaching ability doesn't influence the quality of assisting to the degree that your suggesting.

Also..., rock, apers, lizard spok is out of genre, right here it's fighter, wizard, cleric .

I see what you're saying and could go along with the thought. I will say that having a PA that doesn't know how to teach a new hire will make that new hire even less good at their job because they'll still have questions that need to be answered throughout the process of doing their job.

I'd be willing to say that we might need to look at the crafting assists as less of an assist and more of a learning opportunity between two characters. As in, I can assist you with climbing out of a hole and I can teach you a new technique for brewing. Both assist you, one is a direct assistance while the other is a more abstract meaning of assistance in that you're assisted through instruction. I'm showing you something, which equates to teaching it to you, which will aid you down the road by having improved your technique.

On the same token, it isn't all that helpful to me if I had someone just standing there handing me things as needed while I'm smelting silver beads or wiring a stone. If I'm taking notes from my spellbook to write them onto the scroll so I can use that spell later, does it really help me if someone else is standing there holding a candle that flickers with their every breath? Or is it more of a help if that person taught me a trick to writing and weaving the spell energy into the inks that ultimately makes that one time easier, and all other times a tiny bit better too... even if I fail them down the road, I'll have still learned something.

Since it's an RP opportunity, I'd go with it being the better concept to make crafting assists more of a learning opportunity/teaching opportunity than just a straight up, "Hey, I'll hold a candle for you while you're preparing your scrolls." "Gee, great, that'll really help me understand what I'm doing wrong when it backfires in both our faces." -- It's semantics, sure, but those can be important.

Spellcraft to aid assist? The candle was a bad example, a more believable one would be, "here, let me draw a mundain copy of the scroll in a thicker ink that contrasts better on clean white paper than that old yellowed scroll so you can emboss the symbols in your mind better. Here, let me hold the scroll out flat infront of you so you can use both hands and your full concentration to hold /levitate and write in our spellbook/" The latter isn't so fantastical as this could be done by just putting the scroll and book on a table but since FK has no mechanic for bonus to spellcraft when there is a table present I feel it qualifies.

So correct me if I've made any misconceptions So for now it feels like generally we are in agreement. There are points at which teaching and assist intermingle, though I feel like in the continued PA example you gave, assisting the boss and teaching new PAs are two different tasks and so In a D20 game would require 2 seperate rolls based on different stats or skills.

General agreement, Assist and teaching intermingle in some cases. Main difference is how many times and how necessary pure mute assist vs assistive teaching is. I'm on the fence that says assist doesn't require instruction the majority of the time and infact in some cases can slow down the process and you're on the other side yes?

As for the offer for magic, yes, please I'm always interested in systems that give detail of magic. Like I said the example above was good enough to accept for brewing and scribing but it lacks so much detail when applied to magic in general I have to say as a professional wizard it disgusts me!

After reading I immediately came up with:
So... when scribing you have to use rare expensive components made into ink then cast the spell... what? at the scroll? Wait so if this ink can absorb magic why hasn't it been weaponised?
Or, So you use rare components made into ink that can then accept several charges of magic? Wait... we can channel magic through spellwork into items now? How come there is seperated general no mechanic to use a fireball as a charge and channel it directly into a table in the RAW rules then. Even holding a touch spell as a charge doesn't technically let you channel the energy into an item unles the spell itself is designed to do so in the case of perhaps shocking grasp but utterly defeated with things like vampiric touch. Man... the fun I could have by rotting everything around me by slamming necromantic energy through it regardless of if I got no hp back.

I probably think about it too much but those two were just off the cuff and reflexive.