Alright, this is going to mainly address Althasizor. This segment will be mostly to debunk his post.
Numerous times, in multiple posts, I've stated why the ability reduction duration shouldn't last four hours. I did not say to remove it, as per normal, nor did I say to nerf it to an extreme. Forty minutes is still a lot of time, probably more than enough for you to gloat and not have it be saying the same thing thirty or more times.
Thieves are pretty bad right now because of multiple things needing fixing in addition to several key features missing which would empower them directly. Wandmaking. Ever seen a Thief using a wand of invisibility to escape hordes of goblins? I haven't, probably because wand prices add up very, very quickly and you're not gonna get much out of them initially. Plus, most advanced wands as far as I've noticed are RMI, so you're either incredibly lucky or know a lot of generous people or you're out of luck, and since there's no way to easily recharge them...
Much like Yemin, I'd rather fight a Necromancer than a max level Thief. Probably because Crippling Strike is so easily abused right now and spot is so much more difficult to train than, say, fifth attack.
Let's take this case by case.
I wasn't going to post, but I really can't help it. This line alone is such an -insanely- melodramatic exaggeration. It's an argument to emotion, and doesn't hold any logic or real point. You're just asserting over and over again, to try and convince people eventually I guess, that this ability is overpowered. It isn't. It's just not, flat-out. I highly recommend trying out the class for yourself, I promise it'll clear up a -lot- of confusion about all this.
Fighter bonus feats aren't worth nearly as much as thief bonus feats. Everything a fighter -can- select with a bonus feat, they can also select with regular feats. Thieves, on the other hand, have a very small number of bonus feat points, and can -only- attain their special abilities by using these (It's also possible to waste this precious resource on general feats).
You do realize the gimmick behind Fighters, yes? Feats are their lifeblood. If they don't have decent feats, they're not going to compare to anyone very easily. Sure, that one additional attack is nice, but it's pretty iffy as well, and then there's the fact that you have no proper way to deal with crowds at all, as well as some of your skills being disabled player-side. Do I need to go on? Fighters do have the bonus of being built in pretty much any fashion, sure, but you're still looking at specializing or being mollywhopped by a Wizard who exploits your lack of specialty.
The ability doesn't need nerfing, it needs fixing. There's only one change that really should be made to Crippling Strike, and that's what fixes it. Restoration should remove all ability damage caused by Crippling Strike, rather than the method that currently exists(bug).
For more information on ability damage, read here.
This isn't something that needs rebalancing, or changing. Ability damage is not exclusive to Crippling Strike.
I agree with the proposed fix, but also still state it doesn't need to last four real hours in the minimum. As for that last bit. Do go on, tell me of the other ability score reductions that can't be removed via magic and can stack until you have zero in that respective statistic.
I'll be completely honest, this whole thread just seems ridiculous to me. "Something negative happened to my character, it shouldn't exist/needs to be weaker!"... There are wizard and cleric spells capable of -permanently- lowering your character level. Not, "for 24 in-game hours during which you're able to roleplay, call for help, solve the problem with a handy potion you came prepared with, recall to safety, busy your time with whatever small craft your character enjoys or what have you". Permanently. There are also spells that will -permanently- lower your ability scores or other statistics unless you seek magical treatment.
And that's not even to mention the slew of death magic easily accessible to most casters.
It's also not a matter of, "Thieves need this because they're currently too weak!". This is a class feature that they should have available to them -anyway-. It doesn't need nerfing to justify "buffing"(read: bugfixing) the class. It's one of several features they -can- take to put their character in-line with the power of other classes, not all thieves have it, and again it isn't even unique, it's just one that gives them ability damage on their sneak attacks, which is also inflicted by TONS of other things.
...So? Character levels don't necessarily dictate all you can do in a fight. Hey, look, you just clarified my last point with that last bit in the first paragraph.
Thieves have a lot of features they can't use to the best of the ability they should. I have one and I've looked through their skills, grouped with numerous thieves and watched them do what all they can at their respective levels. Sure, killing something at a distance with sneak attacks is cool, but pointless unless you're after the items it has or just trying to escape.
As for the point that it doesn't offer any direct combat-benefit to thieves... So? It's something they can do. It's something they -should- be able to do. If you need specific examples, why shouldn't a thief be allowed to spend that "2+ hours" gloating to their now helpless, would-be killer? Why is it necessary for characters to suffer EXP loss and ability damage when raised or resurrected? Why is it necessary for a wizard to be able to cast magic that causes -permanent- level loss? Harsh things happen sometimes. Roll with it.
Unless I'm able to remove the effects of having -20 strength by pleading to the closest Cleric possible, this isn't a valid point either sheerly because of the fact that being pulled from the dead doesn't last the same amount of time as someone stabbing at your muscles with a knife. Saying that an ability should go on for hours just because other classes can do stuff of immense power at end game doesn't justify this at all. Wizards go splat and isn't it possible to save against Energy Drain fairly easily due to it not requiring a skill that takes knowing a few thieves and hiring them for weeks on end to train?
Yeah, big one there. Your character -will- encounter hardships they aren't ready for. Sometimes, yes, they might be left bleeding and(mostly) helpless after taking on someone whose abilities they didn't know. They might be frustrated at their own lack of preparation, or hateful of their foe. That's okay. Get over it, move on, play your character, learn from the experience and change how you approach new situations. That's something -your- character went through, and yes it might have been frustrating, but demanding that the core rules of the game change nonsensically to benefit you in an extremely niche scenario isn't a very palatable solution, at least for me.
How about we make Energy Drain unavoidable and always drain at least one permanent level per cast next? Justifying something being too powerful by saying "oh, he's just complaining because it happened to him" is more or less just flaming the unfortunate guy who learns about it and doesn't like the fact that it's broken. Yes, it is broken. You have said it yourself.
(I haven't read much further into this thread yet, full disclosure. But the little that I did get ahead to, I just felt like sharing I had a legit water-spitting laugh that one of the proposed buffs to thieves is to give -more- to another class, wizards in this case. lol'd)
Oh, so you were just trolling? Ah, you got me, I guess I went to the effort of typing a rebuttal for no reason.
Edit: Wordswapped this a bit due to Areia's request.
Side note: Not sure I can make this sound any bit respectful as I don't offer respect to those who offer none in return. That, I admit, is a major personality fault. I'll rewrite it if need be once I return from the store, however that will completely null the point of the post in the first place, which is calling the guy out.
