Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Zorinar wrote: 1) I can be removed easily as Areia pointed out, but it is code abuse to do so. It is basically taking advantage of something that is removing the effect because of the way Crippling Strike is flagged on the Character Object. I believe it has been bug reported.

Thanks much for putting this bit up. I've always thought it felt iffy, but since no one in the know about that sort of thing ever gave a definitive answer here or in that other thread I linked to earlier, I assumed it was intensional.

My apologies to the community in general for making that mistake.

It might make sense to make the duration of crippling strike based on the skill level of the back stab / circle stab up to say the current duration at GM.
I wouldn't expect NPC's to have GM backstab/circle stab.

I'd honestly buff Thieves after nerfing Crippling Strike by adding other feats and maybe improving certain skills they have already, as well as make it possible for PC Wizards to craft wands of almost any spell they know if they're good at it (and add a few more Use Magic Device trainers to the mainland). Having good wands and someone to recharge your wands would bump Thieves up a few notches in both solo play and group play, instead of keeping them on the one-trick pony path.

Zorinar wrote:It might make sense to make the duration of crippling strike based on the skill level of the back stab / circle stab up to say the current duration at GM.
I wouldn't expect NPC's to have GM backstab/circle stab.

I think the sentiment I share here is what does it benefit a thief PC to have a backstab effect that lasts 2+ hours even at GM?

Vs

How ridiculous is it that a PC can be stuck doing nothing for 2+ hours because they didn't dodge a sneak attack from an NPC. Not to mention that there are high level thief NPCs in the game and if not at max level for them right now. nothing says there won't be in the future.

Shortening the duration to something reasonable doesn't effectively nerf this in any direct way. It's the difference between shooting a flumph with a 45 calibur and shooting a flumph with an RPG, the job still gets done, but one is far messier and more annoying to clean up.

Yemin wrote:I think the sentiment I share here is what does it benefit a thief PC to have a backstab effect that lasts 2+ hours even at GM?

Vs

How ridiculous is it that a PC can be stuck doing nothing for 2+ hours because they didn't dodge a sneak attack from an NPC. Not to mention that there are high level thief NPCs in the game and if not at max level for them right now. nothing says there won't be in the future.

Shortening the duration to something reasonable doesn't effectively nerf this in any direct way. It's the difference between shooting a flumph with a 45 calibur and shooting a flumph with an RPG, the job still gets done, but one is far messier and more annoying to clean up.

Yemin puts this in wording I couldn't think of. Props to you, good sir. Yes, there doesn't need to be a massive duration when the effects can already stack (endlessly, as far as I know). Either the stacking needs to go entirely or the duration needs a big cut (and honestly, forty minutes is enough to get the job done) for it to be even moderately balanced.

If you can manage to whittle a Fighter PC's strength down to 0 as a lone Thief without getting brutally murdered first, props to you, but it doesn't need to last as long as it does.

Rycird wrote:4. Again, I did not say to remove it, nor did I say to "remove it because I find it unenjoyable". Having a single OP ability for a particular class is not balancing, it's making the class into a one-trick pony. I admit that Thieves need love, but they also don't need the ability to ruin a Fighter wholly for four or more real hours. Imagine the unlucky guy who gets -10 strength for four hours just before he has to log out due to work-related business. I said multiple times that I'd prefer it to be reduced to forty minutes of real time instead of just asking for it to be a minus two to the target's strength that lasts ten minutes.

Priests and wizards can ruin you for much longer with insta death spells or permanent effect ones such as insanity. Where is the problem?
-Nobody forces you to attack thieves, as nobody forces you to attack powerful necromancers or great wyrms. You meet a high level thief? Well, you either avoid to upset them or take your risks. You don't have to be friends, but suicide
-Not all thieves get that feat. I have got a high level thief who has not crippling strike. Personally I found it relieving not to have it when attacking other characters for spars or rp punishments.
-Crippling strike kicks in only on successfull backstabs, that means you have got many ways to reduce its frequency. Improved initiative, high ac, blind fight and a few others. Or even better uncanny dodge. A pity there are no barbarians and thus only thieves get it here.

I would also like to add that I am not against having a legit way of removing it or in reducing its duration, provided it is a time that still hampers the victim considerably for mechanical purposes, but not as long as to take away some long hours from the player.

Last but not least, no, you don't have to be *friends* with anybody, but if you meet enemies you definitely can't best it is pointless to ask for their skills to be nerfed. As you are writing it down now it kinda sounds like "I am a dragon hunter, can dragon breath please be nerfed so I can kill dragons?". Well, no...

vaemar wrote: I would also like to add that I am not against having a legit way of removing it or in reducing its duration, provided it is a time that still hampers the victim considerably for mechanical purposes, but not as long as to take away some long hours from the player.

Rycird wrote: 3. I admit, this is where I'll start being a bit harsh. So what? Fighters misplace bonus feats all the time and some of their bonus feats are extremely hard to locate despite being very basic. The difficulty in locating a feat doesn't necessarily label it "We shouldn't nerf this even if it's broken levels of overkill".

(EDIT: Wall of text below, individual points not necessarily ordered in the most readable way, but multiline edits are hard:(.)

I wasn't going to post, but I really can't help it. This line alone is such an -insanely- melodramatic exaggeration. It's an argument to emotion, and doesn't hold any logic or real point. You're just asserting over and over again, to try and convince people eventually I guess, that this ability is overpowered. It isn't. It's just not, flat-out. I highly recommend trying out the class for yourself, I promise it'll clear up a -lot- of confusion about all this.

Fighter bonus feats aren't worth nearly as much as thief bonus feats. Everything a fighter -can- select with a bonus feat, they can also select with regular feats. Thieves, on the other hand, have a very small number of bonus feat points, and can -only- attain their special abilities by using these (It's also possible to waste this precious resource on general feats).

The ability doesn't need nerfing, it needs fixing. There's only one change that really should be made to Crippling Strike, and that's what fixes it. Restoration should remove all ability damage caused by Crippling Strike, rather than the method that currently exists(bug).

For more information on ability damage, read here.

This isn't something that needs rebalancing, or changing. Ability damage is not exclusive to Crippling Strike.

I'll be completely honest, this whole thread just seems ridiculous to me. "Something negative happened to my character, it shouldn't exist/needs to be weaker!"... There are wizard and cleric spells capable of -permanently- lowering your character level. Not, "for 24 in-game hours during which you're able to roleplay, call for help, solve the problem with a handy potion you came prepared with, recall to safety, busy your time with whatever small craft your character enjoys or what have you". Permanently. There are also spells that will -permanently- lower your ability scores or other statistics unless you seek magical treatment.

And that's not even to mention the slew of death magic easily accessible to most casters.

It's also not a matter of, "Thieves need this because they're currently too weak!". This is a class feature that they should have available to them -anyway-. It doesn't need nerfing to justify "buffing"(read: bugfixing) the class. It's one of several features they -can- take to put their character in-line with the power of other classes, not all thieves have it, and again it isn't even unique, it's just one that gives them ability damage on their sneak attacks, which is also inflicted by TONS of other things.

As for the point that it doesn't offer any direct combat-benefit to thieves... So? It's something they can do. It's something they -should- be able to do. If you need specific examples, why shouldn't a thief be allowed to spend that "2+ hours" gloating to their now helpless, would-be killer? Why is it necessary for characters to suffer EXP loss and ability damage when raised or resurrected? Why is it necessary for a wizard to be able to cast magic that causes -permanent- level loss? Harsh things happen sometimes. Roll with it.

Yeah, big one there. Your character -will- encounter hardships they aren't ready for. Sometimes, yes, they might be left bleeding and(mostly) helpless after taking on someone whose abilities they didn't know. They might be frustrated at their own lack of preparation, or hateful of their foe. That's okay. Get over it, move on, play your character, learn from the experience and change how you approach new situations. That's something -your- character went through, and yes it might have been frustrating, but demanding that the core rules of the game change nonsensically to benefit you in an extremely niche scenario isn't a very palatable solution, at least for me.

I guess that's about it. This is one of several thief skills that suffers from a bug. We should focus on fixing that, not nerfing ability damage overall to make people feel better about attacking the guy without good armour, a decent hit-point total, or base access to any of the MUD's more notoriously powerful martial weapons.

(I haven't read much further into this thread yet, full disclosure. But the little that I did get ahead to, I just felt like sharing I had a legit water-spitting laugh that one of the proposed buffs to thieves is to give -more- to another class, wizards in this case. lol'd)

Re:Althasizor
This is purely because I enjoy a friendly debate. My hope is that everyone finds it a smidgen entertaining and somewhat clarifying.

This falls into the category of time distorted abilities like FK's meditating making up for the 3.5 daily spell regain. As it is, I would actually rather fight a necromancer or a wyrm than a high level rogue NPC on some of my characters. But then I'm the kind of person who believes being forced to do nothing on a mud, is the #1 worst thing any game ever can force you to do.

Even if bandages removed it, there is simply no reason for it to last so long. If thieves want their class born ability to cripple people that is all fair and good. Rather excellent. It's always fantastic to see something SRd get transferred here in all it's glory but let's consider how appropriate all it's characteristics are and aren't.

Honestly, I'm a little disconcerted with how opposing the opinions on this thread appear perhaps because I've never played a thief. However let me attempt to clarify my thinking and reasons with the following comparison.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm
This spell has a perminent duration full stop, no pass go, no sit around for it to ware off. you get it fixed or you go on as a blind adventurer or give up and go back to the potato farm. In no version of FK would I argue that our level 2 blindness spell be upped to level 3 and made perminent. There is an IC legitimate fix for it that makes sense but it would still be inappropriate for a mud. A significant amount of players get lost even when their char's aren't blinded so I could see this being a deal breaker. Any mechanic that forced a blinded group leader to follow a party member to get help for example would be too unique, too abusable and too much work for this one spell. It wouldn't be a good use of time so in the end our level 2 blindness spell is short duration.

I could use a similar argument that it would force people to respect the terror of sudden blindness / blindness overall far more than it does now but rp is up to the individual and from an OOC point, this would just be annoying as crippling strike is and would end up with the character probably shrugging it off as nothing because of the bleed over from the OOC experience.

I could use a similar argument it would give necromancer's a bit more respect and power than they do have. You'll have to take my word for it that Necromancer, actually isn't in the top tier of wizard specialisations. (please start seperate thread if you want to contest this as the explanation is kind of long). But as 3.5 isn't like fith edition in separating PC and NPC abilities, you're more likely to encounter NPCs with it than PCs. There's no point in Blinding a NPC perminently because of adverse effects, e.g. Making a zone easier for those who follow than builder intended. Frequent mud updating reboots undoing your work etc.

I happen to agree with Rycird's statement to a degree. Just because the class is harder to play and the feat harder to find does not automatically equal roflestomp against everyone else. The subject matter to a point is not wholely relevant. I would be against anything that debilitates a PC for more than an hour irl.

P.S.
Looking back at the previous post I have a hard time seeing any calibur of roleplayer able to rp gloating for 2 straight ours and keep it interesting.

P.P.S. I don't feel this is a nerf, just a fix to bring the ability in line with this platform. A nerf would imply the change makes the class or ability weaker when in effect, the only thing caused by the long duration is making NPCs annoying and ultimately stopping people from going out and enjoying the zones they populate.

I did manage to get most of your clarification from earlier posts already!

I still don't feel the entire argument is being laid out objectively, here. You -aren't- made to sit and do nothing for that long. You're quite welcome to do any number of IC things to extricate yourself from the situation you put yourself, ICly.

It's a bit strange to me though, that you would consider it ridiculous that wizards should have blind spells made permanent, when as addressed above, they -already- have plenty of debilitating, demotivating, -permanent- spells at their disposal. Blindness can be removed in SRD with a spell, and we happen to have that spell. The counter exists. I'm not arguing that they should have it, mind, but why are we okay with wizards having those spells and just saying, "Welp, if you don't like it, travel with a cleric that has death ward" but when it comes to a niche optional class feature for thieves(Or blindness?), we're making a stand and calling that "unhealthy".

I've been on the other side of it. It's frustrating. So is being chased across the MUD by a cabal of high level fighters simply because they know your class is weaker than theirs. A lot of people here have posted that it really isn't that big of a deal for them, having been on the receiving end. Because it's not an end-all situation, in fact!

See, I never said it was about the difficulty of the class. If the class were working properly, it wouldn't be nearly as difficult, and it would still deserve to keep its -class feature-. Our "bonus feat" system for thieves is just a work-around with an existing system to offer them their Special Abilities. They're not -actually- feats, they're like a wizard's spellcasting, or a barbarian's rage, and they only become available midway through a thief's levels, and slowly at that. They're -meant- to be a big deal.

Crippling strike = strength ability damage. This, as all ability damage, is meant to recover slowly without the use of restoration. That's a bug that definitely needs to be fixed, and I'm fairly certain NPC clerics now offer restoration, so that one fix would alleviate a great deal of these complaints.

Edit to add: No, it -is- a nerf. No if and's or but's about it, that -is- what's being suggested here. At the moment, crippling strike is one of very few features working as intended for the Rogue class. By that line of thinking, we should similarly "fix" how many weapons fighters can wield(It's such a big number!), or the spells casters have at their disposal(Why do spells wizards only have access to at their higher levels do so much damage? Doesn't it seem a bit much that a polar ray does so much damage, when that can easily leave me in the Realms of the Dead for RL days or more?)

Alright, this is going to mainly address Althasizor. This segment will be mostly to debunk his post.

Numerous times, in multiple posts, I've stated why the ability reduction duration shouldn't last four hours. I did not say to remove it, as per normal, nor did I say to nerf it to an extreme. Forty minutes is still a lot of time, probably more than enough for you to gloat and not have it be saying the same thing thirty or more times.

Thieves are pretty bad right now because of multiple things needing fixing in addition to several key features missing which would empower them directly. Wandmaking. Ever seen a Thief using a wand of invisibility to escape hordes of goblins? I haven't, probably because wand prices add up very, very quickly and you're not gonna get much out of them initially. Plus, most advanced wands as far as I've noticed are RMI, so you're either incredibly lucky or know a lot of generous people or you're out of luck, and since there's no way to easily recharge them...

Much like Yemin, I'd rather fight a Necromancer than a max level Thief. Probably because Crippling Strike is so easily abused right now and spot is so much more difficult to train than, say, fifth attack.

Let's take this case by case.

I wasn't going to post, but I really can't help it. This line alone is such an -insanely- melodramatic exaggeration. It's an argument to emotion, and doesn't hold any logic or real point. You're just asserting over and over again, to try and convince people eventually I guess, that this ability is overpowered. It isn't. It's just not, flat-out. I highly recommend trying out the class for yourself, I promise it'll clear up a -lot- of confusion about all this.

Fighter bonus feats aren't worth nearly as much as thief bonus feats. Everything a fighter -can- select with a bonus feat, they can also select with regular feats. Thieves, on the other hand, have a very small number of bonus feat points, and can -only- attain their special abilities by using these (It's also possible to waste this precious resource on general feats).

You do realize the gimmick behind Fighters, yes? Feats are their lifeblood. If they don't have decent feats, they're not going to compare to anyone very easily. Sure, that one additional attack is nice, but it's pretty iffy as well, and then there's the fact that you have no proper way to deal with crowds at all, as well as some of your skills being disabled player-side. Do I need to go on? Fighters do have the bonus of being built in pretty much any fashion, sure, but you're still looking at specializing or being mollywhopped by a Wizard who exploits your lack of specialty.

The ability doesn't need nerfing, it needs fixing. There's only one change that really should be made to Crippling Strike, and that's what fixes it. Restoration should remove all ability damage caused by Crippling Strike, rather than the method that currently exists(bug).

For more information on ability damage, read here.

This isn't something that needs rebalancing, or changing. Ability damage is not exclusive to Crippling Strike.

I agree with the proposed fix, but also still state it doesn't need to last four real hours in the minimum. As for that last bit. Do go on, tell me of the other ability score reductions that can't be removed via magic and can stack until you have zero in that respective statistic.

I'll be completely honest, this whole thread just seems ridiculous to me. "Something negative happened to my character, it shouldn't exist/needs to be weaker!"... There are wizard and cleric spells capable of -permanently- lowering your character level. Not, "for 24 in-game hours during which you're able to roleplay, call for help, solve the problem with a handy potion you came prepared with, recall to safety, busy your time with whatever small craft your character enjoys or what have you". Permanently. There are also spells that will -permanently- lower your ability scores or other statistics unless you seek magical treatment.

And that's not even to mention the slew of death magic easily accessible to most casters.

It's also not a matter of, "Thieves need this because they're currently too weak!". This is a class feature that they should have available to them -anyway-. It doesn't need nerfing to justify "buffing"(read: bugfixing) the class. It's one of several features they -can- take to put their character in-line with the power of other classes, not all thieves have it, and again it isn't even unique, it's just one that gives them ability damage on their sneak attacks, which is also inflicted by TONS of other things.

...So? Character levels don't necessarily dictate all you can do in a fight. Hey, look, you just clarified my last point with that last bit in the first paragraph.

Thieves have a lot of features they can't use to the best of the ability they should. I have one and I've looked through their skills, grouped with numerous thieves and watched them do what all they can at their respective levels. Sure, killing something at a distance with sneak attacks is cool, but pointless unless you're after the items it has or just trying to escape.

As for the point that it doesn't offer any direct combat-benefit to thieves... So? It's something they can do. It's something they -should- be able to do. If you need specific examples, why shouldn't a thief be allowed to spend that "2+ hours" gloating to their now helpless, would-be killer? Why is it necessary for characters to suffer EXP loss and ability damage when raised or resurrected? Why is it necessary for a wizard to be able to cast magic that causes -permanent- level loss? Harsh things happen sometimes. Roll with it.

Unless I'm able to remove the effects of having -20 strength by pleading to the closest Cleric possible, this isn't a valid point either sheerly because of the fact that being pulled from the dead doesn't last the same amount of time as someone stabbing at your muscles with a knife. Saying that an ability should go on for hours just because other classes can do stuff of immense power at end game doesn't justify this at all. Wizards go splat and isn't it possible to save against Energy Drain fairly easily due to it not requiring a skill that takes knowing a few thieves and hiring them for weeks on end to train?

Yeah, big one there. Your character -will- encounter hardships they aren't ready for. Sometimes, yes, they might be left bleeding and(mostly) helpless after taking on someone whose abilities they didn't know. They might be frustrated at their own lack of preparation, or hateful of their foe. That's okay. Get over it, move on, play your character, learn from the experience and change how you approach new situations. That's something -your- character went through, and yes it might have been frustrating, but demanding that the core rules of the game change nonsensically to benefit you in an extremely niche scenario isn't a very palatable solution, at least for me.

How about we make Energy Drain unavoidable and always drain at least one permanent level per cast next? Justifying something being too powerful by saying "oh, he's just complaining because it happened to him" is more or less just flaming the unfortunate guy who learns about it and doesn't like the fact that it's broken. Yes, it is broken. You have said it yourself.

(I haven't read much further into this thread yet, full disclosure. But the little that I did get ahead to, I just felt like sharing I had a legit water-spitting laugh that one of the proposed buffs to thieves is to give -more- to another class, wizards in this case. lol'd)

Oh, so you were just trolling? Ah, you got me, I guess I went to the effort of typing a rebuttal for no reason.



Edit: Wordswapped this a bit due to Areia's request.

Side note: Not sure I can make this sound any bit respectful as I don't offer respect to those who offer none in return. That, I admit, is a major personality fault. I'll rewrite it if need be once I return from the store, however that will completely null the point of the post in the first place, which is calling the guy out.

I'm not sure why I have to say this, but let's keep the language family friendly and the tone respectful, guys.

Thanks.

Rycird wrote:More really whiny and baseless accusations

I didn't say the duration was broken. You weren't the first person to learn about this ability I'm afraid, snowflake. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're "trolling", or stupid, as you've implied with every other post you've made in this thread. And no one wants the respect of some edgelord who can't stop memeing long enough to make a single post on an otherwise mature forum. Tumblr's that way, friendo.

We really don't do this much, but I've locked this thread since it's gotten out of hand. Do not revisit the topic. Points have been made above and will be reviewed and considered as necessary.