OOC Paladin Forum to be held in game

[Aysa]

I may be able to be there for the beginning... either that, or I need to get to the airport way early, and then connect on the airport's wifi... hmm.. either way, I'll try to be there. If I'm not, though, don't wait for me.

[Harroghty]

This is in approximately 30 minutes. Be logged in and ready to attend at start time for a chance to enter a small contest.

[Harroghty]

Part One, the scripted portion. (The Powerpoint slide doesn't translate well to the forums...)

You say, OOC, 'Okay. We'll start then. I'll grab any latecomers if they arrive.'
You say, OOC, 'I will post a log of this on the forums.'
Alinor nods.
You say, OOC, 'Please hold all questions until question time.'
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| PALADIN OOC GUILD FORUM |
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| 21 Oct 2017 Slide 1 |
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Aramil blinks.
Skylar laughs.
Alinor looks impressed.
You say, OOC, 'I just wanted to see how people would react. That's the only slide I made.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'MUD powerpoint?'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'I'm a little upset'
Stigr says, OOC, 'LOL'
Aramil claps his hands together.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Fantastic xD'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'I was expecting a powerpoint after that'
Skylar says, OOC, 'oh gods, the agenda- I knew this would happen XD'
Meerlinda says, OOC, 'Man, what a let down.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'You could do so much better'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'i'mkiddingthankyou'
You say, OOC, 'The agenda is as I published. History, Future, Squire Process, and Questions.'
Skylar looks at Meerlinda.
Aramil nods.
Skylar looks at Stigr.
You say, OOC, 'Paladins as a guild are old, but the process as we understand it today is not. The original idea of paladins was based on a very strict interpretation of 2E's paladins.'
You say, OOC, 'The coded process as a requirement was a response to bad behavior by the first set of paladins.'
Skylar sits at the boardroom table to take notes.
You say, OOC, 'Paladins were originally the province of Mystra (Mask's predecessor) and then Kelemvor took them over (he's gone now). I took them over ~2009-2010.'
Aramil nods.
You say, OOC, 'Prior to 2009, there were hardly any paladins. There were maybe 10 or so who existed, but they had few hours and were really not anyone's primary PCs.'
You say, OOC, 'With the exception of four notables: Andreas and Exer of Helm'
You say, OOC, 'Aran and Meerlinda of Torm'
You nod at her.
Alinor looks at Meerlinda.
You say, OOC, '2007, Kelemvor tried to jump start the class with his alt Feinn. He took Raona, Jaenoic, and Harroghty through the lessons'
You say, OOC, 'Raona was a squire, Jaenoic and Harroghty were fighters'
You say, OOC, 'A couple of years after that in 2009, there were six new paladins given their accolades (including Aramil) in the first real large class of paladins'
You say, OOC, 'We've had roughly one a year since then. (On average, some years one, some years two.)'
Alinor Hmmmms...
Skylar smiles at Katheryn.
Katheryn hugs Skylar.
You say, OOC, 'There are currently 8 paladins with active paladins. Of those, four are really active PCs.'
You say, OOC, 'So we have 5 possible paladin mentors (4 paladins + Harroghty) right now.'
You say, OOC, 'So that's part one. The history.'
Barasha gives a round of applause.
Skylar grins.
Aramil Hmmmms...
Skylar says, OOC, 'That was enlightening. I'm not sure anyone laid it clear before, but it's an important bit of history'
Katheryn nods her head in agreement with Skylar.
Alinor nods his head in agreement with Skylar.
Barasha says, OOC, 'Barasha could have told you all that'
You say, OOC, 'I wanted to start from the same place.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'It's certainly good to know! There's not a lot of written history of us.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'I had a couple lessons with Feinn, too, but the main drawback there was that there was no continuity as is now.'
Skylar pats Barasha on his back.
You say, OOC, 'So, part two. My vision.'
You say, OOC, 'We have made a lot of progress toward a more lively paladin class, but I think the way forward is to open it up further still, and push ownership down to the PC level.'
You say, OOC, 'As I said, our concept was made originally to be more strict than even the 2E rules.'
You say, OOC, 'e.g. the "Complete Paladin" 1994 has three pages on edicts for paladins. These are derived from three possible sources: government, religion, philosophy, or some combinations of those'
Skylar seems to agree.
You say, OOC, 'The total list was meant to be picked from to make a list that fit the PC, but we threw all of those edicts on a list, killed two of sources of patronage, and said "everyone be this way"'
You say, OOC, 'We ignored the words "the responsibilities with the patron may vary"'
Aislynn seems to agree.
You say, OOC, 'I think we've gone too far down the road to open up other sources of patronage right now.'
You say, OOC, 'But, ideally, the religions should own their paladins more practically. i.e. create their edicts, enforce them, and administer them'
Stigr nods.
Alinor seems to agree.
You say, OOC, 'I know this is hard because PCs come and go, but the way around that is to codify these things and record them so that future people can pick them up if there's a gap'
You say, OOC, 'Right now, the concept of paladinhood is word of mouth.'
You say, OOC, 'And experiental'
Skylar nods.
You say, OOC, 'I have codified all the rules from my perspective in the helps files which are up to date and I curate'
Aramil nods.
You say, OOC, 'But I would like to expand that catalog to include edicts for each church'
You say, OOC, 'I would also like to see more than two schools'
Skylar grins.
Aislynn seems to agree.
You say, OOC, 'The schools don't have to be clones, and they will be different by the skills and feats conferred during their training'
You say, OOC, 'Right now, for example, I give every new paladin mounted combat and heavy armour optimisation for free (or a feat point if they trained it already) from the Halls of Justice'
You say, OOC, 'Paladins also get some cool free stuff at their accolade like magic armor and weapons'
You say, OOC, 'Aramil's elf school is shorter, and no one's graduated really from it yet, but what I'm saying is that someone could only go there and become a paladin'
You say, OOC, 'They don't have to go the Halls of Justice'
Alinor nods.
You say, OOC, 'And I hope we are able to make more schools to reinforce the different edicts from different patrons'
Skylar seems to agree.
Aislynn seems to agree.
Stigr nods.
You say, OOC, 'So, to move neatly into part three:'
Skylar has a layout and plan written for a school that she'd been working on casually, but hasn't finished the other stuff on her plate to formalize anything with it enough to even present it to Someone.
You say, OOC, 'Squires.'
You say, OOC, 'My basic guidance is that squires and paladins should be one-on-one. If at all possible, a mentor should have only one squire.'
You say, OOC, 'One to many does not work. Experience proves that. Also, showing up only for lessons doesn't work either because it just gets boring and there's no investment.'
Skylar seems to agree.
You say, OOC, 'Squire and Mentor should follow the same patron, or be as close a match as possible.'
Aislynn Hmmmms...
Aramil Hmmmms...
Alinor glances at Stigr.
You say, OOC, 'Remember, I want paladins to belong to their patron, not to some broad, ecumenical body of paladins.'
You say, OOC, 'So, as much as possible, like with liek'
Aislynn seems to agree.
Alinor seems to agree.
You say, OOC, 'In the mean time, I want to address something and I will use a notable example.'
You say, OOC, 'There is no formal rule about squires and armor.'
You say, OOC, 'If there was such a rule, then it was word of mouth from Kelemvor (via Feinn).'
You say, OOC, 'And it died along with old stuff like 10 magical items and all paladins never marry.'
You say, OOC, 'From my perspective, mentors run their squire's training in a way consistent with the squire's patron's requirements.'
Aislynn wipes her brow with obvious relief.
You say, OOC, 'And in cooperation with the squire's church'
You say, OOC, 'So, last thing from me.'
You say, OOC, 'The new Halls of Justice are built except for some tinkering with the paladin school there.'
Alinor raises an eyebrow.
You say, OOC, 'I added a lot more of a base for logistics there like all necessary clothing, armor, some bunking, some meeting rooms, etc.'
Skylar Hmmmms...
Aramil Hmmmms...
You say, OOC, 'Please be patient as I finish up that last bit and it should be live soon.'
Barasha gives a round of applause.
You say, OOC, 'I also tripled the training available.'
You say, OOC, 'Three levels of dummies with increasing threat.'
Skylar grins.
Aramil says, OOC, 'Just give non Triadic paladins keys, alright.'
Stigr claps his hands together.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Yes please!'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'All fo them, please.'
Stigr says, OOC, '^'
Alinor seems to agree.
You say, OOC, 'Every paladin and squire will have all hours access through a more strictly controlled temple.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'or an ifis = class_paladin open dat door'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'Triadic, no keys.'
Katheryn nods her head in agreement with Skylar.
Katheryn says to Skylar 'Seems an easier blanket solution tbh.'
You say, OOC, 'But the temple will comprise two fortresses, the school and the Tyrran part'
You say, OOC, 'You may not get into the Tyrran part'
You say, OOC, 'But you will get into the school'
Alinor nods.
Alinor nods.
You say, OOC, 'And elves who try will be flayed and hung from the battlements'
Aramil sighs loudly.
Skylar seems to agree.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'What about lessons that deal with certain NPCs in the Tyrran parts?'
You say, OOC, 'There's conditional access'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Understood.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Can we ask questions now?'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'That's a question =P'
You say, OOC, 'Yes, we're right on time.'
You say, OOC, 'Half hour from me, half hour now from you.'

[Harroghty]

The larger part of the question and answer period. Discussion period really.

Alinor smiles.
You say, OOC, 'Aramil, you can start.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Alright. The system sounds alright but I don't really see where the faith support should come from, f.e. for faiths that have no FM and/or little active players, and what of possible mentors like Alinor or myself whose church/race traditionally has very few paladins'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Bc of f.e. Corellon being like a god that has probably a lot of distance from other paladin gods, that would kind of limit the option of us taking up squires?'
Aislynn nods her head in agreement with Aramil.
You say, OOC, 'Yes, FK has lots of gaps in players. So, the best solution I see is twofold:'
You say, OOC, 'First, we do close fits if a match is not available. Elves might best help halflings, for example, being not human.'
You say, OOC, 'Secondly, if someone is in a seat now, they commit to writing down the rules so that it can be passed on. These can be living documents (revised by later leadership), but it needs to start somewhere.'
Skylar agrees with lumping the non-humans in a bucket together.
You say, OOC, 'We need to start a tradition of ownership.'
Alinor peers at Skylar.
Aramil Hmmmms...
You say, OOC, 'There are not so many out there that, for now, I can just continue to stick my nose into the assignment process as it happens'
You say, OOC, 'I want to be practical, but I want to push us in a certain direction, too. Obviously, at the end of the day, the point is to have fun.'
Alinor nods.
Aramil Hmmmms...
You say, OOC, 'Does that answer your question?'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Sort of, yes.'
Skylar raises her hand, a few of them.
Alinor says, OOC, 'I'll say that I like the idea of acknowledging that paladins of different races and religions are going to have different views on things. Trying to pair up as closely as possible makes sense to me, as long as it's feasible.'
You nod at him.
Skylar nods her head in agreement with Alinor.
You say, OOC, 'Go ahead, Skylar'
Alinor gets in line behind Skylar.
Skylar says, OOC, 'I'll try to pepper quick ones first, Does golden barding work?'
Aramil sighs at Skylar.
You say, OOC, 'Yes, but not on magical creatures'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Huh. Fair enough. that explains it.'
Alinor Hmmmms...
Skylar says, OOC, 'Mentors can still assign rules aside from the typical correct?'
You say, OOC, 'Within reason and in cooperation with the squire's church.'
Alinor sighs because his pegasus won't have wonderful golden barding.
Stigr pats Alinor on his back.
Aramil Hmmmms...
You say, OOC, 'BRB'
Alinor winks at Stigr.
Katheryn says to Alinor 'Get a horse, golden barding it up, pretend it flies.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'I.E. No plate until end of codified lessons etc? I feel this 'rule for the sake of being a rule' does a bit to set a foundation for the understanding of humility and obedience for humility and obedience's sake. Those who argue with the rule kinda justify it IMO'
Aislynn giggles at Katheryn's actions.
Barasha says, OOC, 'I would like to point out that it's very difficult to have a paladin as your main PC when you must play another character so long to attain the kismet'
Skylar nods.
Alinor snickers with Katheryn.
Katheryn asks Barasha 'How do you mean?'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Why is kismet related?'
Skylar nods her head in agreement with Katheryn.
Barasha says, OOC, 'I have a friend for example who finds a knight of Sune to be very amusing, but does not wish to wait six months for his paladin powers as a new character'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'Ah. Well.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'My idea of the class is, it's intended to be more an RP experience and less so for the powers at the end.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'It isn't about playing another character, is why, it's about playing as a squire and experiencing the RP, not just getting the power'
Alinor nods his head in agreement with Katheryn.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Aislynn is my very first character ever. I came into this understanding that it would be a long wait, but also that it was something i wanted.'
Skylar nods her head in agreement with Katheryn.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'But yes, it's more about the journey than the destination.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'I mean, I understand wanting to mainstream paladins, but it's ultimately not a class for everyone.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'I'm just kinda worried that that system will take away the roleplay experience of teaching squires or at least limit them, which I think is an essential part of being a paladin.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'After all, we're definitely not the strongest or the most useful in random situations.'
Katheryn nods at Aramil.
Barasha says, OOC, 'As a point, it discourages people from playing characters, and that is why there are not as many paladins'
Alinor says, OOC, 'Alinor was my first REAL character. I played one or two others just to get enough kismet for a sun elf but I was still really new to the game. I just really wanted him to be a paladin.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Directed at Someone-- what are your thoughts on including an item in the new school, for paladins, that allows for a burst of lay-on-hands in one command, during combat, with only the one-round sacrifice?'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'poor them when they come back to have to read back >_>'
You say, OOC, 'Briefly'
Skylar nods.
You say, OOC, 'New schools can be shorter'
You say, OOC, 'So it doesn't have to take as ong'
You say, OOC, 'Long'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'I feel the 6 months is an excellent timeframe....but often it drags on much longer than that.'
You say, OOC, 'I think such an item would be better available to all paladins somehow'
Barasha says, OOC, 'I personally wanted the squire RP, but I understand that some tabletop players might want to start out being able to heal themselves'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'That's why we have clerics.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'I would agree Someone. I think coding it into the spurs might be a good idea also, but that is more work as there are many spurs'
Aramil says, OOC, 'How long the schools take is a matter of mentor and their coordination of time.'
Aislynn nods her head in agreement with Katheryn.
Alinor says 'That kind of answers my main question. I was lucky enough to get to do the lessons in the Halls of Justice and the elf school also, though I technically graduated from the Halls I guess. I was just curious about the differences in timeframe.'
Meerlinda nods at Katheryn.
Alinor says, OOC, 'And not everyone uses spurs.'
You say, OOC, 'If a new school is three seconds long then there will be more scant rewards'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Yeah, I don't want spurs for Aislynn, after all.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'by new school i meant the new Halls, just something handed at the door maybe. A worn-under headband perhaps?'
Aramil says, OOC, 'There are none, you just need a mentor to pick a token. You went through SH fast bc you didn't need formal lessons Alinor.'
Alinor nods his head in agreement with Aramil.
Alinor says, OOC, 'I understand that, it just seemed like it was less lessons as a whole.'
Alinor says, OOC, 'Although I could be mistaken of course.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'Eh...I don't think scant rewards for lessened time is also a good resolution, either, to be honest. Because then you'll get people who are still technically paladins yet not upholding the paladin imae.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'Which, is, pretty important.'
Skylar nods her head in agreement with Katheryn.
Aislynn nods her head in agreement with Katheryn.
Meerlinda says, OOC, 'Oh yes, believe me. I lived through the reason for the strict adherence.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'The class is about prestige and ability.'
Meerlinda says, OOC, 'It was really, really bad.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'If anyone can get in, it drags the whole experience down.'
Alinor nods his head in agreement with Katheryn.
Barasha says, OOC, 'It seems reasonable to at least consider applications to start out as a noble rank of knight'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Agreed, Kath. We should be held to strict standards, but I do feel they should be somewhat personalized to the individual's RP.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'The whole idea that "So and so gets to do this and I don't" to me has always been a bit odd, considering it's as you suggest you want one on one.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'I guess I'm just not understanding the aim, perhaps. Or I disagree with it, maybe?'
Alinor says, OOC, 'I feel like it's the dedication to put in the time and learn the lessons and have the character follow certain basic ideals, though they may differ somewhat between race/religion.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'I worry a bit that by leaning more heavily towards faith and less as a unit, we might be opening up to paladins/squires using dogma as an excuse to get away with falling short of the code.'
You say, OOC, 'I am not suggesting lower standards, but I am suggesting different standards'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'But that is the difference, I feel.'
You say, OOC, 'The Code, frankly, is BS'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Agreed.'
You say, OOC, 'What I mean'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Why the change now and not earlier though?'
Barasha says, OOC, 'You can only get so many zealots in a room before a religious debate starts'
You say, OOC, 'Is that there are however many options to choose from to make a code'
Katheryn sighs at Barasha.
Skylar chuckles at Barasha.
You say, OOC, 'And we picked all of them'
You say, OOC, 'But we don't enforce all of them now'
You say, OOC, 'Unless it's convenient'
You say, OOC, 'So better that each church make its own code and enforce it'
You say, OOC, 'Own it'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'That's when faith takes over.'
You say, OOC, 'Because paladins serve the patron, not some vague notion of paladins'
Aislynn seems to agree.
Stigr nods.
Skylar says, OOC, 'Skylar's personal "Code" is the Precepts of Incandescents, but she still cleaves to 'the code' as it were.'
Skylar Hmmmms...
Skylar says, OOC, 'incandescence*'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'So the majority of your paladins have been working backwards to your initial aims then, is what you're suggesting?'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Whereas Ais works hard to learn about love without breaking the code.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'With Katheryn there.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'If we are leaving it to churches to make their own code, I'm afraid we're going to have a drop in standard.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'I'm following Sir Alitar. I've had the lessons from the halls, and they were very thoughtful but I still would much rather learn about Alitar's past. But I try pretty hard at it too.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'But, we have the orders of Kelemvor already.'
Alinor says, OOC, 'I feel like a lot of us have already been RPing this way just through the natural progression of characters. Aramil and Alinor have certain views as the follow Corellon and his teachings, just like others do with their gods.'
Alinor says, OOC, 'I feel like a lot of us have already been RPing this way just through the natural progression of characters. Aramil and Alinor have certain views as the follow Corellon and his teachings, just like others do with their gods.'
Skylar nods her head in agreement with Alinor.
Katheryn says, OOC, 'If we want faith to dictate paladins, why not leave such a thing up to the churches in the first place? Have the Faith managers pick which paladins may be best suited to train a squire?'
Stigr says, OOC, 'That's actually been a point of contention for myself, feeling torn somewhat between my character's faith and the halls. It creates an interesting dynamic at times, but ultimately a paladin is a paragon to their god and the patron/faith dictates their edicts.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Or Imms, if no Faith Managers are available'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'We don't have faith managers for all the involved churches, though.'
Katheryn points at Aramil.
Aislynn nods her head in agreement with Stigr.
Skylar says, OOC, 'The current system has paladins that apply 'the code' as a basic framework that they lay over the dogma of their faith and shape to suit their specific service'
You say, OOC, 'Sort of'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'You've given us far too much freedom to make these choices that we've gone away with them, from your ideals, is what it's been made to seem.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'I think most of us feel that way at some point or another, Stig.'
You say, OOC, 'Remember, I see everything every paladin does'
You say, OOC, 'I'm not Santa Claus'
You say, OOC, 'But I'm lurking a lot'
You say, OOC, 'So my idea of standards might differ from most people's idea'
You say, OOC, 'Has anyone's paladin tithed recently?'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Will you hold a heavier hand to policing standards? Or is it a case of our opinions of standards are different'
Alinor says, OOC, 'Alinor sets a percentage of whatever he gets aside.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Alitar tithed all his coin and hasn't had more than 10plat since >.>'
Barasha says, OOC, 'I completely agree, it's always been the source of the paladins divine qualities. And I think most people do pretty well. I understand what you mean as far as being torn between the halls and faith. Some of the horror stories this squire has heard involve horrible death, and horrible death and dishonor.'
Stigr says, OOC, 'Does tipping the stableboy count? jk'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Skylar tithed 250, but that was a time ago and doesn't cover the mins'
Barasha says, OOC, 'In every case though it's been a matter of faith, just because I believe the paladin should be a religious nut.'
You say, OOC, 'It's not really practical for me to enforce every rule, and I don't really want to do that anyway'
Skylar Hmmmms...
You say, OOC, 'I want to play, too'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Your standard is very medieval'
Barasha says, OOC, 'The example I give, is that every different paladin has their own prominent duties. And they work together, they work together well.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'Just like the gods upholding the porfolios'
Aramil Hmmmms...
Skylar says, OOC, 'That is fair, though making it less unified and more faith-based may also pull the option out of our hands to police ourself.'
Katheryn nods her head in agreement with Skylar.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Should paladins be policing each other, though?'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Though, it seems we aren't well aware of your standards anymore.'
You say, OOC, 'That's problematic in the first place'
You say, OOC, 'Remember Saoirse? Briek didn't write that letter'
You say, OOC, 'It was a plant'
Barasha says, OOC, 'Am I not supposed to be writing long inquisitions about people I suspect of being warlocks?'
Barasha says, OOC, 'Because I have been'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Which comes from outside of our umbrella and is an outlier.'
Stigr says, OOC, 'On the point of de-unifying, it might be more interesting for conflicts to arise between the paladins in how they practice their faith.'
Alinor doesn't even know what letter was being referred to.
Aramil says, OOC, 'Well, in all of this, I have to ask...Did we as active paladins do good jobs, too?'
Aramil raises an eyebrow.
Katheryn says to Aramil 'I wonder that now.'
Aramil nods his head in agreement with Katheryn.
You say, OOC, 'In which context?'
Aramil says, OOC, 'In every context. Roleplay etc.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'In how we've attempted to advise our squires and so on.'
You say, OOC, 'I think we all can improve, but it's been generally good'
Aramil says, OOC, 'I'll reclass. LoL.'
You say, OOC, 'The biggest problem is that it's become clannish'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Respectfully, I think this feels a bit like we're being told that the standards are lower than we thought they are, and that we've done wrong by trying to uphold them.'
Aramil nods his head in agreement with Skylar.
Katheryn nods her head in agreement with Skylar.
Katheryn says, OOC, 'Feels muchly like old vs new based on how *we* were taught and have implemented.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Because now we're quite wrong to try to subvert salacious behaviour and uphold chastity. We were wrong to promote humility, obedience, etc.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'The way I see it. This won't change anything, other than how the schools and patrons work. People gravitate towards their faiths - usually.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'in a sense.'
Skylar Hmmmms...
Barasha says, OOC, 'You will still be the sire.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'It does, because the church itself now will inject itself to lessons more than previously.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'It's no longer one v one.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'That's a good thing, though. The church really, really should be involved.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Lack of Feedback over the years, too.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'That creates a dichotomy for dramatic development'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Less "paladin and squire help translate how the code and dogma apply and interact" and more.. just normal deity dogma.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Yeah, Aislynn, in your case...who would have been there to be involved?'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Nobody at all, sadly.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'I've been the primary representative of the church for 10 months.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'No offense, but I think there were some toes stepped on to.'
Aramil shrugs.
Barasha says, OOC, 'It is still your characters choice what to teach and how to handle the code'
Aramil says, OOC, 'But the Code is BS, was being said?'
Stigr's hands pulsate and shimmer with soft light.
Barasha says, OOC, 'As I see it, it is now malleable'
You say, OOC, 'As I began by saying, we took all of the choices and applied them all'
You say, OOC, 'When the book clearly states that they are meant to be chosen from'
Aramil says, OOC, 'What does clannish mean?'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Like a clique.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'So the feeling is that a 'code' formed per deity is what is needed.'
You say, OOC, 'Yes'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Hmm'
Barasha says, OOC, 'Or a religious cult of fanatic sword-wavers?'
Aramil says, OOC, 'That probably lies in the small number'
You say, OOC, 'Tyrrans, Tormans, and Helmites might be religious fanatics in that way. I would not expect the less militant faiths to be that way, for example.'
Alinor says, OOC, 'Maybe I'm misunderstanding here so please correct me of I'm wrong but it seems like there isn't really any huge sweeping changes required. There should still be some basic guidelines for how paladins should act, but they'll be personalized somewhat depending on faiths.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'I don't think paladins growing to be friends over time is a problem exactly.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'This comes up ICly a lot, at least in some lessons. One squire might ride after bandits while another tended to the dead and wounded.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Except, I think that's how it is now Alinor..'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Me neither, but right now it seems kinda 'wrong''
Skylar nods her head in agreement with Barasha.
Skylar says, OOC, 'Barasha and I cover the differences of faiths and edicts and goals.'
Alinor says, OOC, 'That's what I'm saying, Skylar, and what I mentioned earlier. We already are somewhat personalized in the way we do things.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'An ilmateri might stay to heal the injured, a Tormish might pursue, often depending on the individuals'
Katheryn nods her head in agreement with Skylar.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Hmm... I've felt very restricted in my roleplay, personally. I changed to match what my mentors required of me.'
Stigr says, OOC, 'Mystrans study the dead and dying for science- I mean help the wounded >.>'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Personally, I wouldnt mind seeing things move towards a church-based sort of code.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'thus clerics.'
Skylar nods her head in agreement with Katheryn.
You say, OOC, 'And paladins who are leaders in their respective faiths.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'the code is what separates clerics and paladins.'
Meerlinda says, OOC, 'It will need to be made very clear to the FMs what the code is for their faiths.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'No, clerics and paladins are different, sure, but not THAT different as to require such extreme broad-scale restrictions.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'I can simply be a fighter or a cleric without 'the Code''
Alinor says, OOC, 'I feel that there should still be SOME standards for paladins, even though different faiths will view things in different manners. They are supposed to be holy champions and examples.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'The codes, whether "The Code" or not, present these restrictions.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'Chivalry and the knightly virtues'
You say, OOC, 'I am not suggesting that there be no rules, but that there not be only one set.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'There should be strict standards for paladins. But not just one ruleset.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Every paladin or squire had restrictions due to their faith or race'
Aramil says, OOC, 'In the end, it has to be what administration wants though.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'No, not every paladin. Some faiths are custom tailored to the code....others are very much not.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'I think we are not a big enough base to not have some straight rules, especially since you would rather us all be more main characters in the long run than alts we play.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Faith-based codes shouldn't allow for cowardice, greed, or promiscuity in paladins any more than the current one.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Triadic faiths are.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'We definitely need room for individualism, though. Otherwise we're copy/paste soldiers.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'And faiths without FMs?'
Aramil says, OOC, 'I -thought- we were kinda individual'
Skylar nods her head in agreement with Aramil.
Alinor nods his head in agreement with Aramil.
Andreas arrives from a puff of smoke.
Katheryn says to Andreas 'Here.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Being a squire is also different than being the paladin.'
Andreas says, OOC, 'ohai'
You say, OOC, 'Andreas fails the paladin virtue of punctuality.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'rekt'
Andreas says, OOC, 'lol'
Skylar winks at Andreas.
Alinor says, OOC, 'That's what I was trying to say. I feel like we've already been doing a lot of this.'
Aislynn snickers.
Andreas says, OOC, 'I juuuust looked at the forums a few minutes ago. >.>;;'
Katheryn says to Andreas 'WElcome, welcome. Food and drink in the crate.'
Katheryn gets a decanter of endless water from a weathered leather satchel.
Alinor smiles at Andreas.
Katheryn drinks water from a decanter of endless water.
Katheryn drinks water from a decanter of endless water.
Katheryn drinks water from a decanter of endless water.
Andreas bows deeply.
Katheryn drinks water from a decanter of endless water.
Skylar says, OOC, 'I agree, I just worry that by putting it more into the hands of the squire (of faith) neuters the mentor's ability to curb poor behaviour and encourage good behaviour.'
Katheryn puts a decanter of endless water in a weathered leather satchel.
Katheryn nods her head in agreement with Skylar.
Katheryn says to Skylar 'Yes.'
Andreas looks at Stigr.
Skylar says, OOC, 'As it stands, though we use 'the code' as a framework, we all apply it as it fits into our dogma, and use it as a tool that doesn't pull away from the intentions of the faith'
Meerlinda nudges Andreas.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'I don't. I think it makes the paladin have to consider their decisions and the nature of the squires RP more.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'wut'
Andreas smiles at Meerlinda.
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Because a squire of Mystra is not the same as a squire of Tyr.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Yeah, by taking the decission away, basically'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Ideally, no non-human paladin teaches a human squire and no Tyrran will teach a Mystran'
You say, OOC, 'Ideally'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'ideally, but we're not a big enough base to have that sort of ideally in the long run tbh'
You say, OOC, 'Practically speaking there will need to be exceptions'
Aislynn nods.
Aramil says, OOC, 'In reality, we will have to find 50 people to consistently play Paladins and FMs and faithful'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'my first paladin was a mystran because there weren't any triads around, then aramil was my paladin when they stopped playing'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'neither are close to Ilmateri'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'But I still managed to be Ilmateri while being as squire'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'Unless I've done it wrong'
Aramil Hmmmms...
Katheryn says, OOC, 'in which case I'd like to be notified'
You say, OOC, 'I don't think you have'
Stigr says, OOC, 'I have to lean with Aislynn on the point of handing it over to the faiths, and as a Mystran. Taking the code literally means I just try to close my eyes to the law-flauting sect of clerics in my church.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'I've managed to represent Sune as well, but it was a tough fight the whole way through.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'Its *going* to be.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'For instance, during her time with Katheryn, Kath kept Ais from expressing herself in nearly any way.'
You say, OOC, 'I am not suggesting that it's all wrong, but I'm suggesting it can be better, more rich, and PCs can have more ownership'
You say, OOC, 'If PCs want it'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Including staying in the Temple of Beauty. That's a huuuuge deal to the RP of being a Sunite.'
Katheryn says, OOC, 'It really does sound that way.'
You say, OOC, 'I've said a couple of times that wasn't true'
You say, OOC, 'But we can be more inclusive and continue to expand if you all want to help me to do that'
Skylar says, OOC, 'I'm not getting that impression anymore, but I'm still worried about the direction of the class.'
Aramil Hmmmms...
Alinor says, OOC, 'I'm curious what you mean by more inclusive.'
Aramil nods his head in agreement with Alinor.
Skylar says, OOC, 'I'm not sure ownership of a faith's paladin direction is something that everyone has proven themselves to be responsible enough for.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'Of different styles of RP, I imagine.'
Andreas says, OOC, 'Mee too.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'It is not easy to be a paladin or a squire. Johnny casts phantasmal killer on a bandit with a three-line alias. Am I supposed to yell 'I shall smite thee evildoer' and hit him with a sword, or tend to the dead corpse instead of making another one?'
Skylar says, OOC, 'I worry that certain dogma's will be used as an excuse to lessen standards, allow for RP that previously was considered unsuitable and that I still feel should be considered unsuitable.'
You say, OOC, 'Well, Meerlinda and Andreas, paladins once could not marry and could have only 10 magic items. Are today's paladins worse for the change?'
Skylar says, OOC, 'They are not'
Skylar says, OOC, 'But we now have paladins who are socially aggressive and rude.'
Barasha says, OOC, 'You've been a bad... paladin.'
You say, OOC, 'Let's do this...'
Aramil Hmmmms...
Meerlinda says, OOC, 'I would not say worse, but I can see where it could get worse if certain standards are not maintained.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'I've aimed to have flaws, but fall within what I've felt was suitable.'
Andreas says, OOC, 'I'm on the fence about the not marrying part. I feel it was something else that was challenging to RP properly and a pitfall for people who just weren't dedicated enough to that sort of RP. But, I also support the idea of certain faiths who espouse marital relations to have the support of being able to do so as paladins.'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Maybe character concepts and complexities are a factor'
Andreas says, OOC, 'And... I still personally try to limit my magical items just because that's what I've been doing for so very long.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'I think across the board, 'pre-marital relations' should be a no for paladins'
Andreas says, OOC, 'Agreed.'
Skylar says, OOC, 'some faiths may allow for marriage, others not'
Katheryn waves happily.
Katheryn says, OOC, 'The wave was yes, right?'
You say, OOC, 'Which is the case now.'
Katheryn waves happily.
Skylar says, OOC, 'Kelemvor yes, Lathander no.'
Aislynn says, OOC, 'And for a knight that follows the literal goddess of Love?'
Aramil says, OOC, 'Some faiths allow running around and having xyz spoues, lovers and whatnot'
Skylar says, OOC, 'Here is where we see my worry Boss'

[Harroghty]

Thanks for showing up and making it a lively conversation.

We have a big group of players involved in this RP now and so we can have group discussions about where we're headed and how. The goal is ultimately to give players more RP flexibility within the setting and continue to grow paladins and squires as a class.

[Aysa]

I'm sorry that I missed the conversation...

I wanted to throw my two cents in here, though. Especially in regards to faith-based rule sets.

Mystrans are supposed to protect the Weave, so really the Knights of the Mystic Fire should gravitate towards Mystra, Family, Dweomerkeeper, Country... or something along those lines. As Galeena is going through her squire training, she is trying to translate a lot of the Triad stuff into stuff that applies to being a Mystran.

I don't think the standards will be any less than the Triad code. Just that a Mystran would be more compelled to worry about the wizard casting "animate dead" in a region where "lowbies" or "non-adventurers" linger, rather than trying to serve justice to someone who jaywalked.

I think if we developed the proper code for each "school", then there wouldn't be a lessening of standards. But rather, a clarification of standards that make more sense for a Knight of the Mystic Fire as opposed to the Silver Knights of Silverymoon.