Spot

[Telk]

I could see a person invis and flying in a wilderness room, roads, plain being able to go by undetected. I could definetely not seeing someone saying "Hey, someone's here" when there is wind blowing in a wilderness room, or it is raining; and more often then not, even if it was a windless day and someone flew by, I think that the person would just dismiss the thought as a breeze (however some may be able to detect it for what it truly is)

Going with Kregor's idea...if your levitating, which is only a few inches to a few feet above the ground, you'd most likely be heard, unless you were very stealthy. Flying I think you could get away with it, flying above the treetops, as long as you don't collide with a bird.

[Kregor]

Noting in the 3.5E source doc, spot is also a skill that checks vs. disguise.

[Glim]

Hmm, so it really is an all purpose skill.

Instead of just the look command, now, you have to actually have some skill to see through a disguise or not.

Another thing might be good for builders, spot checks could perhaps determine who gets the initiative in a fight when there are like, ambushes or creatures hiding in trash, ect.

[Dalvyn]

The big problem I see with this kind of skills in the current system (as with all passive skills) is that you do not really get to "train it up" by experience.

Compare it with, for example, an active skill like "search" or "hide" or "cook" or "aid". Those active skills can be improved by just using them again and again (a mostly mindless and simply time-consuming task). It's therefore relatively easy to reach higher levels for those skills, and eventually (grand-)master them.

In this case though, you only use "spot" in opposed checks, when you actually have something to spot (same with listen). And this is quite uncommon. That means that, after a few weeks, you can reach skill levels in disguise/hide that are way higher than what you can get in spot, therefore making spot more or less useless (since you will nearly never win an opposed check against higher spot/disguise skills).

That's one of the problems of basing the skill levels on usage instead of buying them with "points".

[Lorion]

Training those passive skills can provide an opportunity for RP though, because you can, for example as an apprentice thief, try to find the master you are learning from(that means, the experienced thief is hiding, and your character is trying to spot him). Granted, with the rate skills improve this is not something you can do endlessly, because you can only so long RP hiding/looking for someone without both getting bored of it. It means this is actually a skill which cannot be trained alone though, which isn't that bad. maybe you can tweak it a bit so that spot/listen etc need fewer successful attempts of using it before you get an improvement in that skill.

A not quite related question i had, is about discern. I have got the skill, but almost never used it, and never improved in it as well. Just a little while ago I found out that you can actually type discern, and then have discern in your affected list. Now my question is, does discern only work in this state? And are there any disadvantages to it(like moving slower for example)?

About the flying question: I always assumed(and tried to RP it that way) that you could, when affected by the skill, deliberately choose your height in which you fly, whether it is just a few inches or a dozen feet above the ground or even higher, and also deliberately choose where/how you fly, without having grown wings or something. Is this interpretation wrong?

[Glim]

I agree with you, Dalvyn, about passive skills. Even if they were set to improve faster than active skills, then they still would be outmatched by someone who had actively trained hide or sneak.

But this never stopped you with listen, did it?

I am unsure about a way to counter it, except to make it so that even though passive, it is used alot, and trains up faster. Or for hide and sneak to not train so fast to counter it (for a determined player though, sneak and hide would be higher than spot and listen). From what I have seen in playing tabletop, spot is used alot. This wouldnt necessarily be the same on the mud, but it could still be used often. Its a versative skill that can be used for a wide variety of things.

Just because the current skill system of the mud allows active skills to be trained faster than passive skills, I dont think this means that non- thieves, and halfelves and caster types with true sight should just be totally without a means of seeing a hidden character. I mean, whats the point of house guards then if they arent half-elven? *grin* Because right now, I have a thief, and I can look into a room and at people and usually with 75% certainty determine who would be able to detect me or not. Its a way of playing this system, but its not necessarily right. I think spot would be useful counter to this, as it would make not all thieves hide skills cloaks of invisibility to certain classes.

Also, Lorion, discern as far as I know, is an active skill, meaning it must be used and turned on (i.e. in your affects list) for it to be effective.

Also, fly can be open to interpretation, but this leads to way too many questions in RP. How quiet is flying? How high are you flying? How loud is flying? Sometimes a clear cut answer answers these questions.

Also, a last little question, to everyone, listen and discern, when was the last time you got an improve in it? *grin*

[Dalvyn]

I did not mean they never improved, only that there were far less opportunities for them to improve, and that you cannot really train them willingly, as you can for active skills.

For example, if you want to train hide (an active skill), you just hide and move slowly around. You can do that whenever you want, and basically wherever you want. Same if you want to train up magic missile (another active skill), just kill mobs with it.

On the other hand, if you want to train up listen or spot or spellcraft (passive skills), you need someone else to create an opportunity for you to use the skill. You can't do it whenever and wherever you want. Basically, for hide/listen, you need to have someone else with you who tries to hide / sneak so you can attempt to spot / hear him. And this does not really seem to be something very IC to me: basically, those who would like to have high spot and listen (e.g., followers of Helm, or Tyr) will hardly find thieves eager to help them train up those skills.

So, the end result is that, while you can get GM hide without any problem (by mindlessly training the skill), the same does not hold for spot and listen. That means that we'll get characters with low passive skill levels who won't be able to compete at all with those who trained up actively their active skills.

[Dalvyn]

The thing is what I am trying to say, is these checks occur ALOT. Just looking at your fellow player, a mob etc triggers the exp gain from peek etc.

Peek is an active skill, that is, a skill that you choose to use: you just type "look mob/pc" so, yes, it can be trained easily.

Just having someone walking out of the room sneaking, triggers the gain from listen etc. I was getting spammed just sitting in MS on Mystra.

These skills get just as much of a work out as those you try to train.

If you are in MS and have someone sneak in (then out) of MS, your spot/listen is used twice: once when they enter and once when they leave. Yet, that person's hide/sneak is used when they enter MS, when they leave MS, as well as in all the other rooms they walked through before going into MS and after leaving MS.

Another way to see it: If you are a thief and want to train hide/sneak, what do you do? You just go to some place, type hide, and walk around. Or you choose to constantly hide and sneak while you move. Sure, it takes you more move points, but once you have reached a high level, it's only a minor inconvenience. Each time you walk, your hide skill is checked and improves. That means they improve *each time* you type east, west, north, or south ... which is, quite a lot!

Now, you are a Helmite fighter and want to train up spot. What do you do? There's no way you can actively train up spot. You could ask a thief to sneak again and again in and out of the room you are in, but which thief would ICly do that for a Helmite ?

I really fail to see how the spot/listen skills could be used as often as hide/sneak. They might get some use if you camp on MS, but it's nearly nothing compared to what you can do if you want to train hide/sneak.

[Zach]

Edit: Hey... there is another page... nevermind...

[Nysan]

Dalvyn's concern, as I see it, is the rate-gain of skills/spells requiring only personal action compared to the rate-gain of skills/spells requiring actions of other players/mobs. The rate-gain of passive skills such as spot/listen is decent but with current skill increases and only gaining through the actions of other players/mobs, they will never be on par with the gaining of a skill/spell you do not require actions besides your own to improve. This leaves a potential gap between passive skills and active skills since you can hide/sneak/whatever whenever you wish to practice it compared to seeking out someone to use your passive skills on. Passives are hindered compared to actives gain-wise, in the current system, by the mere fact that you need constant actions of others to improve them.

Thats what I see when I read Dalvyn's posts. Could be way off though.

[Mariela]

Now, you are a Helmite fighter and want to train up spot. What do you do? There's no way you can actively train up spot. You could ask a thief to sneak again and again in and out of the room you are in, but which thief would ICly do that for a Helmite ?
-Dalyvn

Actually, it was probably one of your brethern trying to be sneaky over and over again. And then just natural ability being enhanced by failing as you train and getting the tar beat out of you by your brethern Helmite.

In an out of character perspective, I find the "Someone is moving in the north" kinda annoying, but kinda fun. I really hope it doesn't get more accurate for me. I would hate for it to say, "Mystra's footsteps are moving north of you." I think the character is paranoid enough as it is!

I don't know. I guess I see the ability to be a super listen/spotter a more natural ability and I don't think it should get any better. I think it's one of those things that you are either super observant or you are not. It just enhance what you see in the code. Yes. That means it gives people who sneak and edge up on you.. BUT!

If you are standing someone and you know you are alone... and whomever is following you in sneak all the sudden materializes.. it makes it that much more an excuse to turn to them, blink, scream and then hit them for following. What's more, it makes it a bit more dangerous for the thieves to be sneaking around the people who are VERY aware of their surroundings. Yes, it gives the theives an edge of sorts, b ut it's an edge you could really get mashed for!