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Brar Golik wrote: Drows don't go to the surface but followers of Vhaerun, Elistrae and renegades (and we don't have any of those in the mud). They fear and are raised to fear the sun, being told since their first year that the sun is pure evil and equal to death.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. Drow go to the surface in raiding parties to fight the elves and to do Lloths will. As well as gathering slaves.

In the books of Drizzt's life, he goes out with a raiding party to attack an elven village.

It did not seem like it was a rare thing in the book, but it did not sound overly common either.

Duranamir wrote:I can understand why Drow are restricted from access to the surface and unfortunatley i have to agree with most of Dalvyns post in that with the current player base it is very hard to support a valid Drow enclave seperate from the rest of the game. Which to me is an argument for not having such a huge seperation.

The problem lies not in the fact that the drow are "physically" separated from other characters, but in the fact that they do separate themselves from others and that the only interaction they would have is pkilling (see below too). Opening up a connection would not help in any way with that.

And even if there was some option for interesting roleplay, ... Implying that it is a good reason to create a connection up is also like saying that, since "true" drow cannot interact with other races properly (i.e., with no pkill), we should allow Drizzt clones and followers of Eilistrae.

I actually think that Drow could add quite a lot to the role-play environment in FR certainly in the books they are one of the classic villains and add a wonderful element of menace. Would it not be fun for the surface siders to occasionly meet Drow going about there nefarious plans ?. And it is far more fun to meet a PC than a compter driven MOB.

I know that IC Drow have few reasons for interacting with Good players. But they do have IC reasons for interacting with the evil side they may despise the other races but will quite willingly use them for there own purposes. Even a priestess of Lloth could see the point of manipulating for example the Zhentarim into persecuting elfs or acting as suppliers of slaves.

We agree that drow wouldn't have any "interesting" (i.e., non-pkill) interactions with surface dwellers. Manipulating evil? Fine... How? And what for?

To provide them with slaves? That's abstract on the mud. There could be no constant slave-providing business. As I wrote in my previous post, there might be a (willing or unwilling) PC slave now and then... but nothing more than that. Not enough to sustain any roleplay in any case.

Incite others to kill off elves? I don't buy it... Drow would rather do that themselves and bask in the killing to acquire Lloth's favours.

Providers? For spell components for example? Sorry, but that's just a lazy solution. Drow and providers can already meet in Undermountain. Being able to reach Skullport from the surface is very hard, but being able to reach the lower levels of Undermountain - where drow can get to -, is not that tough, and just require some effort. It can already happen.

And any argument about Drow not being played properly could also equally be applied to every other evil race. For example what reason do Orcs have for interacting with other races ? Yet they do not have anything like the same restrictions.

I disagree. Orcs are surface dwellers, and are accepted in some cities. Orcs and evil mix up more or less freely. Orc groups, tribes, and armies are manipulated by evil plotters. Orc toughs are used as loyal and mindless bodyguards to evil crimelords. Orcs and half-orcs are a common sight in some cities.

The thing with drow is that you cannot have it both ways. You cannot have a drow house member roleplay (insignia, dealing with matron mothers, ...) and a rogue drow roleplay (adventuring, exploring areas far away from Menzo - including the surface -, dealing with surface dwellers and outsiders far from Menzo, ...), because they are not consistent.

As i have suggested one of the main problems is that Drow can not send notes to each other IC. If we had message posts we could use them to organize our own RP's around trips to Skull port, Ched Nasad and schedule meetings with Surface side traders.

I am not sure that a message post would help with that, but it can be added easily.

Skullport is currently the only place that Drow can reach potential contacts from the surface however in almost all cases these are newly generated characters who might or might not return. The difficulty of return to Skullport for residents is currently very high since the limitation of the use of recall magics. Personally i think that there should be route for residents of Skullport to return home relaivley easily. They might then spend more time in Skull port. Skullport itself is still relativley unfinished though this is something that i am certainly willing to help fix.

Skullport is not the only place, as I pointed out above. Undermountain level 3 is also another option.

Re: recalling magic. Word of recall was upped to a level 6 spell. And level 6 spells cannot be put into a bottle. I, for one, think that it would be fine to drop it to level 4 (at which point I'd agree to make it brewable - even though it would still be 1 level too high), but others do not want to drop it in level.

Re: completing Skullport. I believe that Skullport is incredibly large. I am not sure how many vnums it covers, but it is already way too large and widely unused in my opinions. Building big is not always a good idea - that makes it harder for people to stumble into each other. I am not sure how/why adding to Skullport would help. I am actually convinced that it would hamper instead of helping because, once again, it would take away from the surface.

Brar Golik wrote:Well, I agree 100% with Dalvyn.
I was one of those that wanted the reclusiveness of drow when menzo was brought in, my reasons at that moment was that I don't like pk at all and drow meeting any other races or going to the surface means pk.

Drows don't go to the surface but followers of Vhaerun, Elistrae and renegades (and we don't have any of those in the mud). They fear and are raised to fear the sun, being told since their first year that the sun is pure evil and equal to death.
Yes, such band as Jarlaxle's or some renegade group could see to make ties with the Zentharim, not Menzo and even less not any house.
Of course, it is not unheard of some unique individuals (ussualy mage male) who have access to some kind of surface stuff from traders in Skullport and such cities, but it's very rare, only done by the most powerful of mages (ie Faceless being the only known person to have a simple non magic mirror made of simple glass in whole Menzo).
They already are at war with everything in the Underdark, and hates even more anything on the surfaces. Any male whispering of perhaps wanting to go to the surface would be change to drider on sight, and female would just not even think of it.

That's my two cents,
Brar

I can understand the issues that origanlly led to the cutting of of Menzo. The two most obvious being surfacing Drow being either Drizzt Mk2 or mindless PK machines. But is still think that the same thing could be said of any of the other evil races and they are trusted to play to their race and alignment.

I personally think the situation has moved on from when the desciosn was origianlly made. With the Kismet requirements now in place a newbie will not get to play a Drow and anyone who is still playing there Drow from before Kismet was introduced (including myself) are likely to at least have some inkling of proper Drow behaviour .

And certainly from the Books i have read Drow do go to the surface and yes this does often invlove raids on other races but even this is an oppurtunity for Roleplay if done right. As i have stated before Drow should never be at home on the surface but able to visit it for specific purposes i think should be possible. I would even be in favour of not allowing the daylight adapatation feat to Drow players as it would make it too tempting to stay on the surface.

And Drow mages and the preistess's too require a link to the surface. It is in fact completly immpossible to cast most of there spells without access to components only accessible from the surface.

I also think the characterisation of all Drow as mindless killers is pherhaps a little general. Yes they do want to take over the world, Yes they would love to annihilate the whole elven race. But even in Menzo which of the various Drow citys is probably the most hard line they accept surface traders because they need what they provide.

In fact i would not mind if the soloution was the reversed and more surface siders came down to the underdark. Because when that happened eariler this year it caused a lot of fun RP.

Duranamir

Am I the only one that finds the condescending tone used to describe followers of Eilistraee and "Drizzt clones" a little offensive? The drow, as a race, as one of the most distinctly evil entities in all of Faerun, and these "Drizzt clones" exist largely to show just how true this is by contrast. I'm not saying that it should be as simple a choice as playing a human, or even playing a drow for that matter, but please, please, please, drop the noses a little. A non-evil drow RP is just as valid as an evil drow RP, if done properly with an understanding of just how screwed you are.

If you're in the Underdark, you're playing the abomination in a society that wants to purge you. You will have to do terrible things to protect your secrets, and perhaps make some terrible compromises to do that little bit of good. Because, deep down, you know it's impossible...but what if there's someone else like you out there, too afraid to drop their facade, just like you?

If you're on the surface, you don't even get to pretend to fit in. You have the luxury of honesty, but the downside is that every goodly race in Faerun and most of the evil ones WILL kill you on sight without asking a question or inspecting your holy symbol. Drizzt is alive because Drizzt made powerful friends before Drizzt got famous. And even after all of that, he better call ahead and stay out of sight. Because the world can always use one less filthy drow.

That said, I think that non-evil drow and surface drow should be at least POTENTIALLY allowed, or at least not sneered at. This is why we have incredible kismets costs, exacting application processes, and a body of talented roleplayers that can make hostility entertaining.

Meaning no offense, but taking just a little,

Lukon's player

Reading all these posts, and it seems that the regular drow players just want to be able to do 'something' anything surface related, without on the whole causing too much of a nuisence.

A possible solution to this is that someone apply to create a surface village accessable only to the drow thus even though there would still be no
PC-PC interaction they, the drow characters could at least do some raiding and slave taking. Other ideas could also be implemented into this area depending on what was wanted.

I would think that to make this a viable option the area would have to be very hard and thus imply group work, this would then make the area non twinky and also create more RP for those involved.

Lukon wrote:Am I the only one that finds the condescending tone used to describe followers of Eilistraee and "Drizzt clones" a little offensive? The drow, as a race, as one of the most distinctly evil entities in all of Faerun, and these "Drizzt clones" exist largely to show just how true this is by contrast. I'm not saying that it should be as simple a choice as playing a human, or even playing a drow for that matter, but please, please, please, drop the noses a little. A non-evil drow RP is just as valid as an evil drow RP, if done properly with an understanding of just how screwed you are.

Well, they exist, in vast minority, there is at best a thousand drow follower of Ellistrae, and it would be the max possible number as they all live in one sole place.

And no, there is no other Drizzt, and yes, it's an abomination to drow, even if it's famous in novels. He is nowhere near famous in the Realms, he is famous to some highly placed intelligent people and a few villages/small city around where he lives, that's about all.
Try not to mix love from readers with being famous ICly from people living in the novels.

Also, when I said drows don't go to the Surface, I more meant drow don't immigrate to the surface, and don't stay to the surface more than one night. And they use the night solely to raid, kill and .. raid.
Slaves are taken in the underdark, they don't have to go to the surface for that, the underdark is full of kobolfs, goblins, duerguar, svirfnebli, peach, dwarf, ect ect.

Wizards and Priestess do not need icly to go to the surface, with a very very very few exception, they do not go there.
Icly, all the components for their spells can be find there, or made there or whatever, they would for example not use a mirror made of metal instead of one made of glass, ect ect ect.

And again, yes, raid could lead to roleplay, but only to pk roleplay nothing more, nothing less... And not even really to good pk roleplay as it will be slaughter and ambush anyway with everyone jumping on the others (if you are true to drow).

And as I dislike pkill in general, I'm completly against it as I was back then but it's my personnal opinion and if there is ever a possibility for drow to go up there, I really hope there will still be none for others to go down.

Last, for the buildings area for the undrdark, I'm far better to spend those ressources for 50 players than for 5 drow players (even if I'm among them too) the surfaces already lack so much it would be a waste of energy to build for the underdark.

But again, it's only my point of view.
Brar

Duranamir wrote:And certainly from the Books i have read Drow do go to the surface and yes this does often invlove raids on other races but even this is an oppurtunity for Roleplay if done right.

Well, considering all it asks, and the fact it will anyway be mainly pkill (i don't see the drow chatting with the elves before the slaughtering, it is not a problem of having a lot of kismet / being a good rper or not, the drows are like that, being a good rper clearly should not make the drow more talkative), i'm not sure it's the kind of rp that is worth all the efforts to bring in.

Duranamir wrote:And Drow mages and the preistess's too require a link to the surface. It is in fact completly immpossible to cast most of there spells without access to components only accessible from the surface.

As i have never been there, i'm only guessing, but if skull port is accessable by both sides, then all components can be found, and i would rather see more rp at this point, on trading.

And well, even if i find it sad and i understand well how it is disappointing to have put a lot of hours in a drow character and have "nothing to do" with him, but then i thing the most problem is still the player base.
If there were enough players to have constantly drows and surface dwellers, some would not search at the surface the rp they don't find in menzo. But i don't think opening to the surface is a solution. To my opinion, it removes all the essence of the drows, making the drow PC nearly more numerous on the surface than under. But then i don't see many solutions to the problem than patience, and maybe try to organize ourself from time to time a rp down in Menzo.
I know it's sad, but then i really think we should concentrate on surface dwellers for now, there are a lots of races there that can offer some great rp more ICly.

Eltsac

Velsavius wrote:Reading all these posts, and it seems that the regular drow players just want to be able to do 'something' anything surface related, without on the whole causing too much of a nuisence.

A possible solution to this is that someone apply to create a surface village accessable only to the drow thus even though there would still be no
PC-PC interaction they, the drow characters could at least do some raiding and slave taking. Other ideas could also be implemented into this area depending on what was wanted.

I would think that to make this a viable option the area would have to be very hard and thus imply group work, this would then make the area non twinky and also create more RP for those involved.

I can't see how, with the current small base of drow roleplayers, this would really help. I think - though of course I may be wrong - that what they're after is interaction with surface dwelling PCs, not NPCs, to create more roleplaying opportunities.

But seeing as drow aren't allowed on the surface and it's very difficult for surface-dwellers to get to the Underdark (and have a real IC reason for wanting to do so) I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to suggest. :/

Theory..

Lukon wrote:If you're on the surface, you don't even get to pretend to fit in. You have the luxury of honesty, but the downside is that every goodly race in Faerun and most of the evil ones WILL kill you on sight without asking a question or inspecting your holy symbol.

Practice...

Half-drow (which by and large look... like drow) have been rather regularly coddled by numerous PCs, defended by paladins in Waterdeep, brought into places like Ardeep, where they cause knowing devision among its inhabitants, and are defended to the bitter end by some, even in the face of a know alignment spell... why? because of the tendency of some players to apply an unapplicable, 20th century ideal of diversity, which has no place in the RP of an era like that of Faerun.

If they'll do it to half-drow, they'll do it for full bloods too. I seriously doubt any of the non-drow in Zhentil Keep while the Drow were hanging out there had any moves to kill on sight.

Not a stab against diversity... it has its place, in the real world, with real people, not in Faerun in a medieval-equivalent era. The books of Forgotten Realms lore thrive on strife and hatred of one race/culture/alignment/etc. vs. another. The bar against the surface access to drow not only guards against potential RP of the drow, but of the surface dwellers who would encounter them.

The one point that sticks out to me is the playerbase issue. Perhaps we should look at actively recruiting/advertising? I think everyone would benefit from a playerbase boost.

That along with the point if everyone was to log there Drow at least for half an hour or so when they see other drow on, then that would help spawn more PC interaction. I know that if I see 2 or 3 Drow on Ill make an attempt to log my drow even if not just more than a couple of minutes, just enough to stir up some rp.

Layna wrote:it's very difficult for surface-dwellers to get to the Underdark

I do not agree with that.

All it takes to reach a spot where drow can be encountered is two quests. One quest which is your average "fetch me this and this and that" quest. And another quest which is not that much more complex.

The hardest part might be to gather up 2 other persons so you have a group (3 is fine... a fighting character, a healing/casting character, plus another character to balance the group).

Do not take this as a personnal attack - I quoted your post but it's not really a reply specifically to you -, but I find it quite sad that people would find time to spend hours bashing mobs to train up skills (or used to find time to do that), but that they would not devote 3 or 4 hours to questing in a group and call that too hard.

It is not hard at all to reach a point where you can encounter drow.

Add to that the fact that you can otell people who have not greeted you (I don't like it, but here's a case where it might be used), and you can even OOCly set up an meeting with drow!

I honestly do not buy the excuse that surface dwellers can't meet drow. There is some effort required, but it's far from hard.

Dalvyn wrote:

Layna wrote:it's very difficult for surface-dwellers to get to the Underdark

I do not agree with that.

All it takes to reach a spot where drow can be encountered is two quests. One quest which is your average "fetch me this and this and that" quest. And another quest which is not that much more complex.

The hardest part might be to gather up 2 other persons so you have a group (3 is fine... a fighting character, a healing/casting character, plus another character to balance the group).

Do not take this as a personnal attack - I quoted your post but it's not really a reply specifically to you -, but I find it quite sad that people would find time to spend hours bashing mobs to train up skills (or used to find time to do that), but that they would not devote 3 or 4 hours to questing in a group and call that too hard.

It is not hard at all to reach a point where you can encounter drow.

Add to that the fact that you can otell people who have not greeted you (I don't like it, but here's a case where it might be used), and you can even OOCly set up an meeting with drow!

I honestly do not buy the excuse that surface dwellers can't meet drow. There is some effort required, but it's far from hard.

Having no high level characters I wouldn't know, I was going from the impression I was getting from other people. Still - I was kinda thinking that ICly it would possibly be hard for people to justify going down to the Underdark to meet drow for any sustained chit-chat - I mean, seriously, I'd want to keep well away

Any thoughts on the Drow Week idea?

*breaks through the discussion with a Drow-Week-shaped sledgehammer*

For me, it would be a lot of work on the imms part for a very smal part of the player base but then, it is their time, not mine.

Brar

Well. From my experience I think many players have a drow alt. The idea being that during Drow Week, every player is encouraged to log onto their drow. AND that the RP during Drow Week would involve surfacers, too. But aye, it'd be thoroughly up to the imms.

~Ol