Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Slightly off topic, but perhaps relevant, the majority of drow no longer have reverie, most of them sleep. Even when they sleep though, they do not dream.

I think that shows how far removed from the elven psyche you would have to be to abandon reverie...

Reverie is not something that surface elves "forget" how to do. It's as much a part of them as breathing. They NEED to Reverie. They can't function without it.

I'm firmly opposed to "pointy-eared" human roleplay and agree with other players who've said this:

If you don't want to roleplay an elf properly (as per the racial guidelines in this forum and the help files) then don't make one.

Well, I'll not say much more about this due to general disapproval

But in answer to former questions, a City Elf will have much different roleplay than just a pointy-eared Human:
Trying to fend off the discrimination of almost all other Elves
Trying to fit into the Human society, even believing self to be Human
Trying to comprehend its dreams (not likely, seeing as Andreas explained reverie is a nature of Elves)
Trying to convince other Elves to the benefits of Human society
etc.

Isolrem, I think the majority of the opposition to your idea of a "city" elf comes from the fact that it sounds extremely similar to the elves who arrive in Waterdeep, and begin massacring the creation by acting as a poity-eared human. I was myself guilty of playing a kind of "pointy-eared human" but this was easily stopped by researching elves. The information in this forum helps a lot, as do various resources listed in this forum, many of which you do not actually have to PAY for.

Where was I?

Ah, yes: in regards to your last post concerning the "city" elves, I can say that much of your ideas can be placed within the "moon elf" subrace (correct me if I am wrong, other elvish players).

You said you wanted "city" elves to have RP where they are:

"Trying to fend off the discrimination of almost all other Elves"

This could theoretically be done by a moon elf. Gold elves are discriminatory, and the conflict between a freedom-loving, smiley moon elf and a traditonal gold elf makes for interesting RP, which fulfils a little of what it sounds like you want.

"Trying to fit into the Human society, even believing self to be Human"

Few elves would want to "fit in" with human society. As for believing themselves human, well... I don't think that would ever happen. However, if you mean accepting human society, then again, moon elves can do that. They often visit human cities, and explore the human realms.
Trying to comprehend its dreams (not likely, seeing as Andreas explained reverie is a nature of Elves)

"Trying to convince other Elves to the benefits of Human society"

Moon elves do this as well, and (more importantly, some elves say) they try and convince humans to the benefits of elven society.

What this needlessly long and rather rambling post is trying to say, is that Isolrem, you can have your elf that is accepting and different by playing a moon elf. The subraces are there for your choosing. However, there are limits. It is fun to play and RP within those limits and create interesting quirks, and that is more fun than waiting around for a "city" elf that does not really have a chance of happening.



No offence meant by this post!

Hmmm, reading Lerytha's post has made me think that what Isolrem describes can also readily apply to a half-elf. While I am not sure about their sleeping habits and dream structures, they often encounter discrimination from elves, as their blood is watered down. That is, of course, if they choose the human way of life. Just about all of what you said, Isolrem, would be highly appropriate for a half-elf. I know my wonderfully judgemental and stereotyping enchantress (Who shall remain nameless) has muttered something about "dirty half-breeds" on more than one occasion. There's a bit of discrimination for ya.

Okay, thanks for all that, people.
I take no offense
Just one thing among many I need clearing up

I've got a new question between this topic and the marriage topic... I've learned that Elves can apparently form a permanent spiritual bond through a marriage, even with non-Elves.

I have also heard that Elves can Reverie jointly, this being an intimate and spiritual experience.

I am curious as to whether a half-elf could be taught to Reverie, at least to the point of being able to share said Reverie with an Elf.

Elves treat marriage differently than humans. Many elven marriages are made for socio-political reasons. The best documented case of this was when the late King Zaor of Evermeet was forced to marry Lydi'aleera Amarillis despite being in love with Amlaruil Moonflower. If Zaor hadn't married Lydi'aleera, there might have been a civil war among the noble houses. Zaor, however, refused to consummate the marriage and sired children with Amlaruil. After Lydi'aleera's death, Zaor and Amlaruil wed, officially sanctioning the Elven Bond between them and legitimizing all of Zaor's children by Amlaruil.

Fidelity seems to be treated more casually among elves than humans. Elves acknowledge sexuality as being part of the natural order of life. Rather than fighting their attractions or condemning them, elves accept and enjoy them. There are cases (I believe it's in the Archwizard's trilogy also - I'll do some research for quotes later) of elves separating after producing a child. Even though they technically remain married, both partners are free to pursue their own affairs, both romantic and otherwise.

The Elven Bond

Very rare, an elf will form a mystical and unbreakable bond with another being, whether elf, human, dwarf or otherwise. Some signify this bonding through the giving of gifts designed to demonstrate one's love. Others merely forge the bond quietly, withou any outward signs. Whatever the process through which this bond is formed, the elves involved and their chosen can sense the strong emotions of each other. They feel the joys and sorrows of the other, their triumphs and angers as well. Should distance separate the two in this bond and one pass away, the other can feel the death through the breaking of the bond. This is an even stronger version of the communion ability elves share, for this is a lifelong bond and not lightly broken.

For this one person, elves become truly altruistic. Their lives are focused around making their loved one happy, even to the extent of sacrificing their own life. When this bond is broken, whether through betrayal or death of one of the pair, it is a tremendous shouck to the other member of the union. Elves can die from the frief caused by such partings.

Because they can enact this union only once (or twice, in extremely rare cases) in their lives, elve are very careful about those to whom they attach themselves. Many elves go through life without joining their spirits to another, for many find no mates suitable for or deserving of such an important union.

Few elves bestow this gift on humans, for humans are so short-lived that the bond would be all but wasted on them. Still, there are some who consider this a small sacrifice for the love of a particular human. The very number of half-elves attests to this, for although most half-elves aren't children of this union, there are enough who are. The blink of an elf's eye spells an end to these ties, but the love they gain lasts for the rest of their life.

- The Complete Book of Elves, pp. 40-41

Half-elves can't enter Communion. It only affects elves. Nor can half-elves enter Reverie. Although I can't find any direct quotes, it is strongly suggested that Arilyn Moonblade and Danillo Thann share an Elven Bond.

An Elven Bond is truly the greatest expression of love that an elf can express toward another intelligent creature. It is a soul deep and mystical link between them and never offered out of casual affection. Zaor and Amlaruil shared an Elven Bond and even 20 years after his death she continues to mourn him.

EDIT: Andreas' post is decidedly more rich and detailed than mine, and he beat me to it, although, I did find some sourcebook that might help support

That I am aware, the possibility of being able to reverie for a half elf is a no.

There's not a specific thing in canon that I know of that says they can't achieve it, but just to draw from a few passages from the handbooks to help draw a conclusion:

In the PHB entry for the spells Dream and Nightmare, elves are immune to the spells that require sleep, but Halfelves are not. "Creatures who do not sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or don't dream cannot be affected by this spell."

In the 2nd edition book "The Complete Book of Elves", it is said that elves draw upon reverie thru their intimate connection with nature and their society, and half elves are said to be hindered from that intimate connection, due to their human blood. It is said that the elves reverie is the contributor to their immunity to sleep and sleep based spells. Half elves do not share this immunity.

That said, bonding with a non elf is possible, and has happened in both handbook and novel sources, as well as in FK Through the bonding, it is possible for the non-elf partner to feel the elven partner's emotions, thoughts and visions. So it is possible, IMO, to share the thoughts and emotions one gets from reverie thru their bond, even if the two cannot walk through the dreamscape of the reverie together.

Thanks for the info, guys (though I had already read about bonding in the Marriage thread, as I said)-- in further investigation, I did find one thing more that may be of interest, if it hasn't been noted before-- Elves DO sometimes dream in Reverie, though rarely, and when such dreams are had they are sometimes prophetic. Even when not can usually give the Elf a good bit of insight into his or her own nature.

I distinctly recall reading a theme (maybe in Dragons?) on the topic of half-elves entering reverie....and the answer was a definitive yes, but that it was even rarer than it is in drow. I think it was more likely if wild-blood? There was also a reference to a half-elf in reverie in one of the FR novels.

Sorry for the vagueness, but I'll look up the specifics when I'm back from "The Business Trip From Hell".

I may be mistaken but I was thinking that there was a half-elf that was speaking of entering into Reverie in the novel Evermeet: Island of Elves. I will have to go back through and check on that...

In reference to elves entering a community when in Reverie, I was wondering if there was a way to have an elf go to a room when they rest, leaving their body behind.... Let my try to demonstrate:

<Sleep>
Paskry lays down and drifts into Reverie.

You enter the Community.
<Look>
This would be a really cool reverie room that the elves would go into!

~~~Meanwhile~~~

Gary walks in from the west.
<Look>
The special description of the room that Paskry fell asleep in fills in here.
The body of Paskry is here.

~~~In the Community~~~

You hear movement near you.

And so on and so forth... code wise, Paskry would go to a room that would function like the Realms of the Dead... and there would be an object left where Paskry fell asleep which would be his body, but not his corpse.

Perhaps in that area Elves could create items from their past and use them for interaction, but the items would pisadear when he who made it left the Reverie.

Right, just my thoughts,
Paskry

Perhaps my idea of the Reverie is a bit off, but I don't think elves are *that* closely tied to one another. They have a very, very vague awareness of the rest of the elven community when in Reverie, and may have a closer tie to their immediate family, but there's no universal consciousness that elves drift into when they Reverie.

Two elves could choose to Reverie together, and represent the sharing of thoughts using the tells system, but unless I've been fed misinformation, Elves don't go party in Arcadia when they Reverie, they mostly just reorganize their memories.

This is somewhat off topic but I thought it would fit in nicely. Apparently drow experience something similar to reverie, its called trance. I of corse could be reading to deep into this passage. I was looking at the entry for Lloth in Faiths and Pantheons and found it sais that

clerics pray for spells and what not after waking from trance or just before retiring from trance.

Kirkus wrote:This is somewhat off topic but I thought it would fit in nicely. Apparently drow experience something similar to reverie, its called trance. I of corse could be reading to deep into this passage. I was looking at the entry for Lloth in Faiths and Pantheons and found it sais that

clerics pray for spells and what not after waking from trance or just before retiring from trance.

I think they are talking of meditating there for the clerics of lloth or within prayers for trance.

I can not see the drow ever becoming part of the reverie because of their distrust, unsettled outlook and to be blunt pure evil/selfish nature.

Not the ideal of reverie which is complicated to understand and explain.

To make the most simple wording of it perhaps is the following:

(only) elves dont sleep they slip into reverie.

Yes, they can see it with another elf to share memories and emotions of the past (typically if my elf does this I will tell the individual what he shares with them)

Yes they can sense the general community as a whole, it is what keeps them so unified often as a people. But they do not go somewhere and "talk" or spend time together

Even an elf raised within a human enviroment would seek reverie not seek sleep. They would not find the needful rest within sleep.

Reverie is another gift to the elves, some would say perhaps because they are part of the weave or because they are the blood of their gods directly (corellon and his consort moonbow). It is a bond in a way with the other elves, although somewhat distant for it.

hope that helps a bit.

I mentioned a halfelf in the novel Evermeet referring to entering reverie in my earlier post. I just wanted to come back and say that the halfelf I mentioned's name is Larael Silverhand Arunsun and she does mention going into reverie.

Laeral could be considered a different property maybe, as she's one of the seven sisters... and a daughter of a goddess...

*shrugs*

Yes, and there was that moment when Amarluil meets Laeral for the first time and says, "You are N'Tel'Quess?!" - she didn't know Laeral wasn't elven, which sets a precedent for only elves reverieing. e.g, Laeral is the exception that proves the rule.

Lerytha wrote:Laeral is the exception that proves the rule.

Is there still discussion of whether non-elves enter reverie? There are numerous examples for half-elves within the lore, such as this one. Off the top of my head, there's also some discussion of drow reverie (rare but existing!) in Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows Trilogy. For plot reasons Liriel does not, a good reminder that FR authors shape things to fit the stories they are telling.

There are contradictions in the canon, which is why house rules trump.