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I am not sure if this is the case, but Is it just the FM that can give faith quests and faith people? If it is, wouldn't it be more reasonable that someone at least at Prelate level, could give quests and faith people, or at least one of the Inner Circle. It's not like the pope is the one who inducts all the catholics to the faith and he is the catholic FM equal.

Sithiel wrote:I am not sure if this is the case, but Is it just the FM that can give faith quests and faith people? If it is, wouldn't it be more reasonable that someone at least at Prelate level, could give quests and faith people, or at least one of the Inner Circle. It's not like the pope is the one who inducts all the catholics to the faith and he is the catholic FM equal.

Inner Circle Code wise can give quests but still must go to the FM for the final faithing. However, each FM runs their faith differently and some faiths, even though there is inner circle, can only be quested by the FM. Most FMs are active even if not on their main on lesser characters and can just shoot a PM to schedule a time

this subject has been brought up in several different theard at disserent angles but pretty much all lead to the same thing that alot of FMs are not that active because of RL commitments. So that said it is unreasonble to give that massive job to just one pc so what i say we do is create another rank above inner circle but below FM as sort of a number two so they can faith characters if the FM is busy but not promote them past Initiate level.

Most faiths have more than on FM anyways, and the Inner Circle is already a very powerful rank within a faith. I am not in favour of adding another rank. Faithing can be handled differently, too, if a FM is not active.

so what does one tell hopefuls if one is the only member of his faith logging regularly? i we can't be having hopefuls sending in quest requests and quested players applying all over the place.

- Find a faith with an active manager.

- Wait for the faith you want to have an active manager.

- E-mail, send a PM, whatever you can find based on a forum account of said FM to try and schedule a few times that can be used for questing/faithing.

- Keep bumping this thread with your frustration at the fact some faiths do have 3 FM's and none of them log on in hopes that perhaps more active members who can handle the responsibility OOCly and ICly assume the role.

- Incorporate the length of your wait into a viable roleplay where you are setting goals to meet in order to prove yourself to said faith.

Nothing impresses the boss more than initiative instead of being told what to do:

"Hello Vanguardier Sir, I just slew this maurading Red Dragon in the name of Torm while rescuing all the sickly orphans from the building he had set on fire. After that I rebuilt the entire orphanage and donated the dragon's hoard to help take care of the poor children".

What manager in their right mind wouldn't instantly faith someone for that? I sure as heck would.

I concur with all the responses so far. Particularly with Isaldur; there is much to be gained by initiative. I have sent an absent faith manager PMs before and gotten positive responses and have witnessed personal initiative that was rewarded by the immortal staff (Jarus of Helm is a perfect example), however; I wish to point out something about faith managers in general that is a little off topic.

Sithiel wrote:It's not like the pope is the one who inducts all the catholics to the faith and he is the catholic FM equal.

I do not believe that a faith manager should be compared to the pope, but rather that they are better compared to a bishop. That is, most of the faith manager titles that I have seen are specialty priest titles (Battleguard, Holy Champion, etc.) and I see these characters as filling local roles instead of global ones (many of these churches likely do not have such a hierarchy as the Catholic church enjoys in real life). So, I see it as that the quests are already being assigned by your local deacons, priests, and bishops. If they are not around as often as you'd like (or, as they should be) then there is always a solution. Again, Isaldur suggested some great ones.

I think I contribute a good example of the good and bad of a FM. I was HP for a while before the new code change came in that changed how faithing was done. At that time, I was very active on Athon and handled the faithing process moderately well (in my opinion, at least).

However, I stopped playing FK for a while soon after the new code update came in. This hiatus lasted a little over 2 years and I left with very little structure to the faith at the time. This would be what I considered the "bad" of my leadership as a FM.

I came back to FK late last October. Drew asked me to come help out and this led to a more permanent stay for me. Personally, I have no qualms at all against players finding me for game-related issues - whether it's Athon as the FM, or just Moranall or Thorden for general RP reasons. The biggest change that came upon my return, though, was that we introduced a line of structure inside the faith. I've delegated tasks to the other high-ranking members to make the faithing process as a whole much simpler and quicker. For example, I've utilized Harroghty, Kallias, and the other Tormish to teach the hopefuls about the dogma, church, history, etc. and sometimes even quest them. While they were questing, I would then talk to those that I delegated the duty to, gather their feedback, and make the final faithing judgment in a relative quick time frame. I think taking an approach similar to this for most faiths would help make the faithing process easier.

I hope that wasn't too rant-like. Here are some suggestions to hopefuls, at least from my perspective:

- If you see the FM for the faith you seek on-line, seek them out! You will stand out much more if you show the initiative to join.

- If the FM is rarely on, send a PM on the boards, find them on AIM, etc. Don't use third-party mediums for the exchange of IC information, but I see nothing wrong with using various outside sources to contact someone to arrange a proper time to meet. There are 24 time zones around the planet - it might be hard for two players to be on at the same time.

- Try and understand the culture of the faith you seek. Be proactive about learning the dogma, values, and history of the church. Find other members of the faith, find allies of the faith (if possible), purchase and read books, etc.

- Please do not be in a hurry. I know you want to join badly, but idling in the square hoping the FM will log on doesn't show how you RP in relation to the faith.


This is my good little rant for now.

It's not so much for me as for others, to take the Tyrran faith as an example Raona's player has the responsabilites of a baby now and so he can't be on all the time and Maybels player must have some RL keeping them away so it's me holding the banner of the faith at the moment. There is only so much RP i can do with hopefuls before they really need to move on and that brings me back to the first problem, while these hopefuls are doing pretty well RPing the faith dogma in general i have no authority to take them further and i can't have them ALL apply. We as a faith are having a gathering but as i understand it Maybel probably can't make it so what do i do from here?

You're doing everything just dandy, Briek - I'm certain Raona's player and the imm's appreciate it. But if it's outside your coded ability, then there is nothing more you can do than what you're already doing. Keep it up, Champ.

Cheers tyson (even if what what you said made me feel about five ) don't mean to rib them as i know everyone has lives (me excluded because i am stuck at home and there is nothing i can do about it ) i suppose what i said was fairly unreasonable in itself.

To quote myself in a previous post:

If your the FM and you know without a shadow of a doubt that you will be gone for extended amounts of time, ~6 months or more, or if your interest in the character has just waned enough to limit you being able to do your job, it is your duty to step down and have someone else fill your role.

After writing this I thought I'd put a little disclaimer at the top: This was not pointed at anyone or any post in particular... and I am not saying that FM's staying active is not a problem. Certain faiths do need more FM involvement, or rearranging..

I'd just like to say there are a couple of things that characters can do to help themselves with the faithing process. More than a couple of things, even if the faith manager doesn't seem to be the most active. And before I get into that, someone said earlier that just because you don't see your FM online, doesn't mean they are not there. I am online A LOT, but not always on Ynaura. I keep a list of people I need to be looking for online, and try to log onto the appropriate character to help them get faithed when I see them online, but there is only so much I can do.

Other people, as players and characters have to make the effort to contact the faith manager in some way. You cannot just leave it to us to happen to wander into you and just immediately know you are that person listed as a hopeful that we've been looking for. Also, if you are hoping for us just to run into you, you have to try to stay somewhere that we might actually pass through. You cannot set your title to 'hopeful of blah blah' and set your status to hopeful with a mob, and then go back to training in the temple and expect us to be able to find you. Those are good ways to let us know we need to be looking for you, but unless you are somewhere we can actually find you, what good does it do? Think about the places people normally frequent in the cities, or spend some time hanging around the temple. If I see a hopeful I haven't met online, I do not mind hopping over to the appropriate character and trying to hunt them down, but I'm not likely going to find them if they stay in the basement training or spend all their time online off somewhere else questing or something.

Another thing, do not just expect the FM to automatically know you are that hopeful person if you happen to run into them. Most of the time, (With most goodly characters) the FM will make it fairly well known who they are. If they come into the square, and you know that person is the FM of the faith you are looking into, go over to them, atleast announce your name in some way so they might be able to say "Ooooh, you are that person the scribe was going on and on about...let's go talk somewhere." You cannot expect us to just pick you out of a crowd and say 'Let's go.' You have to take some initiative in getting things started and not just leaving it all to the FM.

Also, people seem afraid to contact FMs. I'm going to say this one in big letters to get the point across... YOU ARE NOT BOTHERING US by sending a PM or a letter IC. The last thing we want is for people to feel that they are being forgotten or that we are just ignoring you. If you are having trouble finding a FM IC, shoot them a PM and ask for a little help. It can be hard to contact an evil FM at all IC because of the whole secrety thing, so this can be a very good solution for that. I cannot think of any FM that is going to be upset or annoyed by a hopeful trying to set something up to meet with them. Well, within reason..don't send twenty PMs, and give them a reasonable amount of time to respond. Most will do what they can to make the time to get with you and work on your situation. I've had to do that a couple of times. If you do not know the FM's forum name, contact someone else you know to be active in the faith and see if you can get them to help you out. The 'forum' command has become by best friend after the 'who' command. I use it all the time to see if anyone has sent me a pm on the forums and can see, no matter which character I am currently playing. Also, I'm a compulsive 'who' typer. As soon as I log on, I type 'who'. I know there are quite a few other people like that, so IC letters, and OOC PMs are very good ways to get in touch with people. And again, we do not mind at all.

Another thing you can do..if you are looking to join a faith where you do not have to hide your hopeful status... Spread the word that you are looking to join and that you are looking for people to talk to. Makes it sooooo much easier if you've gotten around and met a few people. I can log on to Ynaura, and someone can come up and tell her all about this wonderful person they just met who happens to be an Oghman hopeful. And guess what...that person can set up a meeting for you! So..the more you get out and rp with other people, the easier it will be for you to meet the people you need to meet. Networking people!

Something along with what Isaldur said... do not wait until you've met the FM and have the symbol around your neck to start acting like a member of that faith would behave. Being unfaithed is not a free pass to do whatever you would like. You cannot claim to be a hopeful of Oghma and then go around burning books and expect to get away with it because you were not yet an official member of that faith. Now I know that was sort of an extreme example...but it happens, and people get oocly upset because they do not understand why their character is taking so long to be faithed. But if your character behaves along the lines of how you know a character in that faith should behave, then that is only going to help you with the faith. And this excludes all cases where you are ICly trying to be a difficult case.

Another thing...sometimes delegating responsibilities to other members of the faith is not always the answer. Granted it works in many situations and helps in most of them, but sometimes all it does is spread things too thin. If you delegate too much, that is just more people you have to wait for to be online, and a whole other realm of problems to deal with. I'm not against other people in the church taking more responsibilities, just want people to see that it is not a 'fix all' solution and sometimes it creates more problem than it fixes.

One of the main problems I come across faithing people is that people expect everything to happen all in that first meeting. I'm sorry, that just isn't how I work. I expect atleast a couple of rp's with a person before I even think about giving a quest. If you expect me to be online and available to help you with something then you should make the effort too. Also, sometimes there is a certain character that I just feel may not completely understand what the faith is about and will need a little more work that others before getting a quest. The length of time it takes for a character to be quested and faithed is not just based solely on FM activity. Sometimes the character starts talking with the FM, and then doesn't log on again for a month, and then starts talking about being frustrated at how long it is taking to be faithed. This was not made as a comment to anyone else that has posted here. Just saying that it happens a lot, and sometimes people need to be a bit more conscious of what they might be able to do to help their own situation rather than just always blaming it on the lack of involvement with the FM.

I know there are some faiths where the FMs just aren't actively there. In those cases you just have to be patient and wait for them to get back on or for the imms to help you. I've been in that case too. I have other things I could mention about this, but this has already turned more long winded than I had meant it to be. I think my basic point was that you cannot just leave everything up to the FM's and blame it on the FM's when you are not getting faithed as quickly as you would like. I am NOT saying that is what anyone here was doing..just making a point that there are A LOT of things people can do to help the FM's out in the process. I'll click the submit button before I keep going.

That was long..... but pretty much had everything in a nutshell. In any organisation there as to be a pecking order, one person cannot take all the work load for a faith it has to be spread out. Normal members of the faith are the ones who should be giving the hopefuls lessons because in reality the FMs and inner circle members have far too much to do running the whole church and this is the IC excuse i use often to hopefuls who start to ask me where the FM is or why they only see me about.

I think that it's also very importating roleplaying your character as a member of the faith would do, if you openly act against one or more of the precepts of the church, or if you associate what would be enemies of the faith, the FM likely would not have any rush in faithing you (if any), a simple google search to the deity that you want to follow should give you the basic idea of what of a follower shouldn't do and with who should associate and who which not.

ie: a hopeful Lathanderite who associates himself with Necromancers, A hopeful Mystran that abuses magic, etc.

"Hello Vanguardier Sir, I just slew this maurading Red Dragon in the name of Torm while rescuing all the sickly orphans from the building he had set on fire. After that I rebuilt the entire orphanage and donated the dragon's hoard to help take care of the poor children".

This is a good example of what a hopeful should do get the faith's attention (in a positive way), acting as a commented above, it's not.

if i ever want to know anything about a god then the faiths and avatars referance book is the best way to go, it pretty much has everything in it and things that are a little hazy in it you only need to do a google search on to get a better example somewhere.

A few quick additions to the fine suggestions made above:

• It is OK for you to TELL ("Amulet") someone who has not greeted you IF they have a white title - which includes all of the faith managers, I believe. They are understood to be reknown enough people that "everyone" who cares to has heard of them.
• If you "never" (wait a long time and do not) see the FM online, try to PRAY to the deity (once), send a PM to the faith manager, and ask for OOC advice of members of the faith who are (relatively) active.
• FM's face something of a dilemma when they are less active than they should be, as well. Like Athon, many see their activity and available time vary over time. At what point do they step down? What if there is nobody in the faith in a position to assume the FM role (a common problem for faiths that have less-active FMs, unfortunately)? I understand the frustration of a new player who chooses a faith only to learn over time, with some difficulty, that the FM is hard to find. I was in that boat myself. I just want to comment that the FMs are often in a similarly difficult situation themselves. If there was an easy fix, most of them would take advantage of it. They aren't out to ruin your IC life or frustrate your OOC one.