Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Regarding the "hole" in the power abuse, this is simply not true for dark paladins. They are held to as tight an honor code as any goodly paladin. I've read a LOT of books, and not just FR style. Anyone thinking of the Order of the Black Rose from Dragonlance, here? Or Lord Soth from Ravenloft? That's a prime example. They are evil, but they know and have honor. They respect not life, but power. But it's still respect.

It's a moot point, IMHO. Dark Paladins are just that...Paladins of Evil, and not Good. Same thing, just reverse polarity.

FR Blackguards have no code. They're just as likely to be barbarian sorcerer who can't read, as they are to be the black knight from other sources being referenced. There is no class restriction. They are not fullplated knights with spikes on their shoulders; they can be, but that doesn't define them.

Any class can be a blackguard.

If a blackguard has a code, it is self imposed...not out of a sense of honor, but because doing so furthers his agenda (evil). For example: a sorcerer blackguard who attributes his arcane ability to devil blood generations ago, may adopt a lawful evil mindset...not because be believes contracts to be just, but because he's darn near forced to, dealing with devils all day.

Also, another big misunderstanding about this prestige class; blackguards are neither holy or profane. By definition paladins are. You can be a blackguard and just be some evil guy without serving an infrastructure or higher power. Requirement for the class: "Special: The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else." The class is much more about being beyond the human ability to commit evil, with a commitment to deal with entities that are evil incarnate, than it is a class that has to do with being an evil holy knight.

Essentially, it allows you to be an evil with a hybrid melee 1st/caster 2nd progression. That's all it really is. Anything that makes it cool would all be player input to the character - which everyone is already doing currently with their PC's.

I understand the appeal. They've got a swagger to them. I just want the canon class to be discussed, instead of something that maybe a mixture of many sources.

i have had a look in the 3.5 DMs guide and its seems to me that this is pretty much an evil bloke with a bit of spice as the abilities it has gives it a bit of everything in which you could be downright nasty with but thier is nothing to suggest that these blackguards are anything like the dark knights/anti paladins of 2nd ed. I think the only occasion you could call this a dark knight is if a ex paladin became one, then he would make full use of the paladin type powers that the blackguard as, wear plate and follow an evil code just because he wants to but other than that than that any other class would make this just a pretty mean evil.

FK can always trump FR, though. So if we wanted to make the Blackguard an alternative paladin, we can. So, don't get sidetracked in the discussion, that we have to allow all classes to be a blackguard.

Although Horace does make a good point that other classes should be done first.

i agree, there is no point in spending time making classes that you are going to have to apply for and few people are going to be able to be when there are several popular core classes yet to come.

Lerytha wrote:FK can always trump FR

If that is the case then why are we constantly attempting to make FK conform more to D&D mechanics and FR Lore in other areas?

As for Blackguards, they can be any evil alignment and vary in attitude depending on what type of "Evil Outsider" they serve. A Blackguard of Bane might have made a deal with a Baatezu (Lawful Evil, Devil) to gain the blackguard abilities, while a Blackguard of Cyric may have made a deal with a Tanar'ri (Chaotic Evil, Demon) to gain the same type of abilities. The Blackguard may not even worship a FR God, but instead broker a contract through a minion of a Demon Prince of Archdevil. In any of the situations it involves making a deal with the devil so to speak.

Fallen Paladins are simply paladins that fell from their positions, ideals, etc.. and can come back. There is no return and redemption for most Blackguards, and Blackguards -do- make use of fallen paladin levels in determining the power of their abilities because in going blackguard the Paladin is more than fallen, he/she has become the anti-thesis of the Paladin.

Paladins commit personal sacrifice in the mortal world for the glory of their patron (God or otherwise) and are rewarded greatly in the afterlife.

Blackguards commit sacrifice of their afterlife to gain power and rewards in the now. They are less concerned with what their patron wants (Although the goals often coincide) and more concerned with how to achieve what they want.

The Ebon Spur is different from Blackguards in the way that they are not out to increase personal power, unless the increase helps further the goals of Cyric. Ebon Spur members are extremely devoted to Cyric to the point where they are given extremely potent abilities and are made immune to spells Cyric grants to his priests simply because Cyric needed a branch of faith that work towards his goals and not their own. There are Blackguards of Cyric, but said Blackguards worship Cyric for their own gain and not Cyric's.

With all the talk of setting Blackguards up as lawful opposites of Paladins, this can be done in a way but it would work more like how a paladin can be a paladin without being a knight. A Blackguard might decide to join the Most Righteous Order of the Obsidian Gauntlet (Made up order of Bane worshipping Knights) and adhere to their ideals, laws, codes, etc.. so long as he matches them in temperment.

Now if FK wants a more "lite" version of a Blackguard and Paladin and the type of Prestige Class where it is faith related and driven they could always introduce Divine Champions instead.

Is it possible to create a warrior, in the hopes of going paladin, but apply to an evil faith? Is it possible, I wonder, to become a Lawful Evil paladin, with all the same rules and restrictions that apply to their good counterparts?

No. Any player planning on becoming a paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment.
I have a long-term goal of opening more faiths up to have paladins, but the Lawful Good requirement will remain.

Also, should that not be possible, what is to stop an evil fighter from role-playing the part of a holy warrior, showing his devotion and dedication to his evil god as if he were a paladin without benefits? Earning his abilities via RP, rather than by a hard code

Nothing at all prevents this alternative. In fact, to my mind, that is far more productive than waiting on a class that may never be added to the game. Investing time and effort into a character will always be rewarded

Forgive me, I know the topic is specifically the Black Guard. However, it seems to have taken on a tone of what I'd term an Anti-Paladin, which is indeed supported by the code. The Black Guard prestige class is just that...another prestige class, which is something as of yet beyond the scope of the current code, as I understand it. An Anti-Paladin type-character, however, is not.

Although LG is the alignment for the goodly paladins, what's wrong with the LE alignment requirement of a Dark Knight? Anyone seen Dalente lately?

Kelemvor wrote:

Is it possible to create a warrior, in the hopes of going paladin, but apply to an evil faith? Is it possible, I wonder, to become a Lawful Evil paladin, with all the same rules and restrictions that apply to their good counterparts?

No. Any player planning on becoming a paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment.
I have a long-term goal of opening more faiths up to have paladins, but the Lawful Good requirement will remain.

Also, should that not be possible, what is to stop an evil fighter from role-playing the part of a holy warrior, showing his devotion and dedication to his evil god as if he were a paladin without benefits? Earning his abilities via RP, rather than by a hard code

Nothing at all prevents this alternative. In fact, to my mind, that is far more productive than waiting on a class that may never be added to the game. Investing time and effort into a character will always be rewarded

I think that answers most questions very well for the time being.

if we are allowed tp RP this as if they were dark knights just without the special abilities then once there are enough evils doing then a uncoded squire/knight thing could go on?
anyway i have thought a little bit about a list of of virtues (or sins might be better)

Vanity- the anti-paladin uses his good looks and presentation to get what he wants out of people and also uses it to intimidate anyone who crosses him to great effect.

Mockery- the anti-paladin uses courtesy and twists it to his own subtle mockery of others

Lust- the anti paladins uses his/her body how they wish if it helps them achieve an end or just for pleasure

Dishonesty- the anti-paladin only tells the truth when it benefits him to do so and even then you must find the lies within that truth.

Fealty- same as paladin expect to evil god for evildoing

Valor- the anti-paladin likes nothing more than speading tales of what he may think is valor in the eyes of his god and uses it bring others to his cause (ultimate aim of anti-paladin = evil holy army)

(dis)Honour- the anti-paladin does believe in honour although as soon as the going gets though this is replaced by wanting to save his own skin at the cost of others

Greed- the anti-paladin has no qualms about hording wealth to further his plans although he will always gather this wealth lawfully(or what he believes to be lawful by his own morals so to him if no one is left alive to see it then it's not against the law )

can't think of too many more some of them suck and are just twisted versions of the paladin code but heck thats what a dark knight is.

If memory serves, theres even an evil fighter or two out there that currently rp that part of a Holy Warrior of their particular faith.