Like the title says, this post is a longshot. It is by no means something I expect, as I know the Imms are very busy with both the rest of the game and real life. (Please read the board rules on making proper titles for your posts.)
What I'm asking here is if the necromancer spell list can be revised and edited as proper. I'm not complaining that necros have bad spells, as a matter if fact, some of them are excellent spells! Despite being good ones, some of the spells on the list don't fit there. As for now, they're more like warp-minded transmuters or invokers with a death hobby.
The ones that make sense for MUD necros are good. However, the spells of the Illusion school should go buh-bye (e.g. wraithform, nondetection...). Similarly, the Enchantment spells shouldn't be there, either.
Now, since my fellow necros may be tempted to flame me for asking spells to be taken away from an already weak class, I don't think things should just be removed. There's also several spells that should actually be added to the class repertoire (offensive necromantic spells), and a couple that need revising before they work as they should (Vampiric touch, Energy drain).
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My time here is extremely limited, so I'm going to make a counter-arguement to something that may come up as an arguement.
"Necromancers have some of the most feared spells ever made, like Energy Drain and Animate Dead, so I see no reason they should ever get anything else."
First, energy drain doesn't work as it is supposed to, and it cannot even be learned until level 44, which is essentially past the point it could actually be used for its intended effect - by that time, most necros have developed too much in other areas for energy drain to make any difference.
Second, animate dead is not everything it is cracked up to be. Yes, it raises the dead to fight/work for you. But, that does little good if you are attacked, rather than your pawn, as the necro has very few hit points. Also, the component for it is expensive, and corpses are not always available for use. Further, the IC stigma placed on someone who raises the dead for their own ends kills off a lot of chances for actual allies, especially since most necros are semi-loners already.
Also on the note, like I said earlier, necros are a weak class. I know that the coders try to mainting the balance in all classes, but in the case of the necromancer, there was a pothole in the plan.
To begin with, there is a general knowledge of their technical weakness, thus putting a spin on RP with them, they just don't have the aura of dread mystery that usually surrounds the idea of their magic. Next, down in code, they aren't the sort of wizzies they're supposed to be. It was stated in a handbook once that necromancers have the spells with the most sheer power of all wizards - not because of damage, but because of the simple effects of their spells (like temporary loss of levels, introduction of disease, death, hold undead, et cetera)... however, those spells of power that they should simply don't exist on FK. Third is the long list of enemies one develops compared to the amazingly short list of allies one gains simply by choosing the class, regardless of any other merits... I mean, shoot... wizards need a team to work with so they can gain levels most of the time, and after 15 hours of play, I managed to gain 18% Xp to my next level, and I'm only a mid-level necro.
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In summary, while necro spells are currently powerful, the spell list needs tweaking before necros will be better suited for good roleplay. So, I request that their spell list is considered for revision.
Well, that's what I've got to say. Erm, like I said before this is just a strong of ideas, not anything I actually expect, nor a flame or whine or whatever.
Fair journeys,
Echet Shadofan
Necromancers spell list - Its not good enough
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Ilissa
There is much I agree with, and much I don't, but overall, I believe that the general opinion that Echet has of the Necromancer class is wrong.
I have always said that if you wish to be a Necromancer, than be preparred for intense RP and little else. To me this is what alot of the attraction was. FK IS a RP mud. Sure there are many players who know that as a class they are generally weak (though to my mind, not the weakest) and the adjust their RolePlay to suit when dealing with a necro. These people I rarely finish any of the roleplays I have with them and end up trying to give them tips on roleplaying better. Even so this will not stop alot of people from ruining some great atmosphere that you can create. There is not much you can do about this unfortunately. But in my almost three years of playing my necromancer, I have had some roleplays where I the darkness has come to surround those near, the dead has risen, and I have had tingles roll down my spine, to others where I have wept because my Necromancer has fallen victim to those whose powers are beyond her (or like to think that
).
Gaining exp as a necromancer is not really that difficult. My necromancer is a loner in most things, and alone I have gotten what I needed for her fairly easily. Most of it is just taking what you have, and using it the best way you can. Be smart and train smart and you can get exp quickly. You can quite easily put on 3-4 levels in 1 hour using 1 spell and little else if you really must. It always helps to have a team, and quite frankly, I have found that fairly easy to accomplish. There are many evils roleplaying in the Keep, and I have never had a problem finding a party to adventure with. Since most of my ALT's consist of evil charecters, and I have yet to see Echet around. I would suggest you spend to much time with those who would not be your allies, than with those who would. But this is your choice to make, just don't say we are not out there
The last thing of importance you mentioned was the spell list. In all cases I agree with you. Necromancers are one of the most feared spellcaster groups because of the immense effect a single spell of theirs has. Banish yanks a persons to the void, Finger of death instantly kills them, Wail of the Banshee rips the whole area to shreds. Then we get into the fact that most necromancers have an army of undead guarding their labs and hideouts. Many will work towards lichdoms, or create cults like the Cult of the Dragon (scary cult that made lots of dracolichs). Once they start delving into negative energies and can turn themselves into shadows, things can get really scary. Yup, for one of the smallest spell lists in the PHB, necro's can be nasty.
But that it their nature. Their spells are the ones of life and death energies. Every cast corrupts them (which is why the only good necro is a low level one) which is why they are oft evil and twisted people, out to consume more life energies and add them to their own.....
But I am getting sidetracked.....
I would love to see all the necro spells that I love from the PHB brought in, but know, as you mentioned Echet, that it would take alot of work and that coders currently have better things to do.
There have been many good suggestions made as to what needs to be added or removed. A good suggestion has been to just copy some existing spells and rename the title and echos. Finger of death is pretty close to Harm. Drain Life is pretty close to cause serious. Plague would be a good rename for weakness.
And one I would love is that Iceshield (which dolls out chill touch...very necromantic) be changed to Darksheild ( would love to be surrounded by a shield of darkness).
I am sure we can all come up with lots of ideas of this nature, and I am sure that they are all appreciated, though expect nothing from it.
As far as I am concerned. If there is going to be any changes, they would need to be major, and I don't expect such a thing. I would rather things be left as they are then some quick fixes put in place.
Apart from that, if you RP your necromancer as necromancer then you are sure to invoke the fear and dread they deserve (regardless of what spells you have in your list - as an example, I once RP'ed casting spectral hand and controlling it before another PC. She went along and we had a great RP session with that and many other cool smotes. Code is NOT needed for RP!), and many will come on board and participate in such RP. If they don't, then its their loss thats all.
The main thing of course is, have fun
Ilissa - Mistress of Fun
I have always said that if you wish to be a Necromancer, than be preparred for intense RP and little else. To me this is what alot of the attraction was. FK IS a RP mud. Sure there are many players who know that as a class they are generally weak (though to my mind, not the weakest) and the adjust their RolePlay to suit when dealing with a necro. These people I rarely finish any of the roleplays I have with them and end up trying to give them tips on roleplaying better. Even so this will not stop alot of people from ruining some great atmosphere that you can create. There is not much you can do about this unfortunately. But in my almost three years of playing my necromancer, I have had some roleplays where I the darkness has come to surround those near, the dead has risen, and I have had tingles roll down my spine, to others where I have wept because my Necromancer has fallen victim to those whose powers are beyond her (or like to think that
).Gaining exp as a necromancer is not really that difficult. My necromancer is a loner in most things, and alone I have gotten what I needed for her fairly easily. Most of it is just taking what you have, and using it the best way you can. Be smart and train smart and you can get exp quickly. You can quite easily put on 3-4 levels in 1 hour using 1 spell and little else if you really must. It always helps to have a team, and quite frankly, I have found that fairly easy to accomplish. There are many evils roleplaying in the Keep, and I have never had a problem finding a party to adventure with. Since most of my ALT's consist of evil charecters, and I have yet to see Echet around. I would suggest you spend to much time with those who would not be your allies, than with those who would. But this is your choice to make, just don't say we are not out there
The last thing of importance you mentioned was the spell list. In all cases I agree with you. Necromancers are one of the most feared spellcaster groups because of the immense effect a single spell of theirs has. Banish yanks a persons to the void, Finger of death instantly kills them, Wail of the Banshee rips the whole area to shreds. Then we get into the fact that most necromancers have an army of undead guarding their labs and hideouts. Many will work towards lichdoms, or create cults like the Cult of the Dragon (scary cult that made lots of dracolichs). Once they start delving into negative energies and can turn themselves into shadows, things can get really scary. Yup, for one of the smallest spell lists in the PHB, necro's can be nasty.
But that it their nature. Their spells are the ones of life and death energies. Every cast corrupts them (which is why the only good necro is a low level one) which is why they are oft evil and twisted people, out to consume more life energies and add them to their own.....
But I am getting sidetracked.....
I would love to see all the necro spells that I love from the PHB brought in, but know, as you mentioned Echet, that it would take alot of work and that coders currently have better things to do.
There have been many good suggestions made as to what needs to be added or removed. A good suggestion has been to just copy some existing spells and rename the title and echos. Finger of death is pretty close to Harm. Drain Life is pretty close to cause serious. Plague would be a good rename for weakness.
And one I would love is that Iceshield (which dolls out chill touch...very necromantic) be changed to Darksheild ( would love to be surrounded by a shield of darkness).
I am sure we can all come up with lots of ideas of this nature, and I am sure that they are all appreciated, though expect nothing from it.
As far as I am concerned. If there is going to be any changes, they would need to be major, and I don't expect such a thing. I would rather things be left as they are then some quick fixes put in place.
Apart from that, if you RP your necromancer as necromancer then you are sure to invoke the fear and dread they deserve (regardless of what spells you have in your list - as an example, I once RP'ed casting spectral hand and controlling it before another PC. She went along and we had a great RP session with that and many other cool smotes. Code is NOT needed for RP!), and many will come on board and participate in such RP. If they don't, then its their loss thats all.
The main thing of course is, have fun
Ilissa - Mistress of Fun
I aggree with Illissa completely...although I have just recently begun to delve in the depths of the necromantic arts, it seems that the role play possibilities here are endless, no matter the spell list available. It just takes a high level of maturity when displaying your wizard's prowess that makes all the difference.
I'm in no way suggesting necromancers role play spells they don't have, but instead role play an interest in those spells, or abilities. I'm quite content with the spell list necromancers have, as it satisfies the basic needs of the magic specification. But, if a necromancer wants more spells ic, and feels he as a wielder of the dark arts deserves them, role play his obsession in researching it, attempting to practice it, failing, succeeding, etc. Within reason, anything in FK is possible, it just takes the amount of hard work necessary. Well, I'll stop repeating what's been said now, just wanted to reiterate the point.
I'm in no way suggesting necromancers role play spells they don't have, but instead role play an interest in those spells, or abilities. I'm quite content with the spell list necromancers have, as it satisfies the basic needs of the magic specification. But, if a necromancer wants more spells ic, and feels he as a wielder of the dark arts deserves them, role play his obsession in researching it, attempting to practice it, failing, succeeding, etc. Within reason, anything in FK is possible, it just takes the amount of hard work necessary. Well, I'll stop repeating what's been said now, just wanted to reiterate the point.
One man's corpse...
Is another's best friend.
Is another's best friend.
I've played a number of fantasy MUDs, and I've found something surprising about necros...
1. In the h/s or non-RP MUDs necromancer is almost always a class by itself, is god-like or severely bugged, and wreaks havoc on game balance
2. In RP games where there is a necromancer class, necromancers sometime add a lot to the roleplaying, but if they don't choose to the nature of the class means if they PK or mass kill villages they are either very sufficient or horribly nerfed (perhaps they could change the entire Waterdeep into a city of walking corpses in a matter of hours, or they would be killed by the first town guard, it is almost impossible to balance spells the likes of animate corpse). Luckily with steady imm enforcement it's less likely in FK
3. In RP games where there is not a necromancer class, and mages RP it (at most with one or two spells such as energy drain or raise dead) necromancers work really well. In RP they are very fun, and very unique, but in combat or other game situation they are just similar to mages, big deal.
I am by no means suggesting we remove the necromancer class, just pointing out that a lot of the necromancer's nature in fantasy can simply be RP.
1. In the h/s or non-RP MUDs necromancer is almost always a class by itself, is god-like or severely bugged, and wreaks havoc on game balance
2. In RP games where there is a necromancer class, necromancers sometime add a lot to the roleplaying, but if they don't choose to the nature of the class means if they PK or mass kill villages they are either very sufficient or horribly nerfed (perhaps they could change the entire Waterdeep into a city of walking corpses in a matter of hours, or they would be killed by the first town guard, it is almost impossible to balance spells the likes of animate corpse). Luckily with steady imm enforcement it's less likely in FK
3. In RP games where there is not a necromancer class, and mages RP it (at most with one or two spells such as energy drain or raise dead) necromancers work really well. In RP they are very fun, and very unique, but in combat or other game situation they are just similar to mages, big deal.
I am by no means suggesting we remove the necromancer class, just pointing out that a lot of the necromancer's nature in fantasy can simply be RP.
Chars: Aryvael et all.
*watches Isolrem blow the dust of a lot of old posts*
I always enjoy watching the progress of people new to the forums. They like to share so much when they get on finally. No ill will there, I really do enjoy it.
Anyways....
Most of the necros on FK I know are GREAT rpers. Plain and simple. No arguments. If you've ever been around one of them, you'd understand. Its not really a matter of rp, its a matter of other aspects. The thoughts of this post was simply the necro spell list was a bit lacking. Necros can rp their hearts out but if they don't have any useful spells they are diminished in rp. People can read the spell lists. If they see nothing they fear OOC, it effects themselves IC. No matter how hard you try or how good a rper you are, OOC will effect IC.
This is answered simply by the imms, newbie council, and elder players by, "Want a change, give ideas." A thought I agree with completely. Don't like the spell list, write out a few spells that wouldn't ruin the balance of the game and submit it to the respected email addy. Same goes for any part of the game. Want a change, give ideas. Even if your idea is not exactly the top pick of the overseeing imm, it might spark an idea that they would agree with. Rp all you want, but what they know will hurt you.
N.R.
I always enjoy watching the progress of people new to the forums. They like to share so much when they get on finally. No ill will there, I really do enjoy it.
Anyways....
Most of the necros on FK I know are GREAT rpers. Plain and simple. No arguments. If you've ever been around one of them, you'd understand. Its not really a matter of rp, its a matter of other aspects. The thoughts of this post was simply the necro spell list was a bit lacking. Necros can rp their hearts out but if they don't have any useful spells they are diminished in rp. People can read the spell lists. If they see nothing they fear OOC, it effects themselves IC. No matter how hard you try or how good a rper you are, OOC will effect IC.
This is answered simply by the imms, newbie council, and elder players by, "Want a change, give ideas." A thought I agree with completely. Don't like the spell list, write out a few spells that wouldn't ruin the balance of the game and submit it to the respected email addy. Same goes for any part of the game. Want a change, give ideas. Even if your idea is not exactly the top pick of the overseeing imm, it might spark an idea that they would agree with. Rp all you want, but what they know will hurt you.
N.R.
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
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Ellian
- Sword Master
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:31 am
- Location: Waterdeep - Temple of Beauty
- Contact:
If you want to see something changed, the best way to go about it is to be proactive and constructive. Look through a few sourcebooks, find a few spells that you think would enhance the roleplay of the necromancer class, and offer them up as a suggestion in the spells forum. Get discussion going.Nysan wrote:This is answered simply by the imms, newbie council, and elder players by, "Want a change, give ideas." A thought I agree with completely. Don't like the spell list, write out a few spells that wouldn't ruin the balance of the game and submit it to the respected email addy. Same goes for any part of the game. Want a change, give ideas. Even if your idea is not exactly the top pick of the overseeing imm, it might spark an idea that they would agree with. Rp all you want, but what they know will hurt you.
Do know, though, that the entire spell system is currently under revision and you will find the necromancer spell list very well rounded when the changes come in to the game. I believe right now the only two schools with level nine spells are necromancers and transmuters.
Jayson
Ellian is completely right, From what has been told to me, The who spell system is under change and will be for a little bit but there are some cool new spells coming in.
And If you are wandering through any of the Forgotten Realm's DnD type books, and you see a spell that could transfer very well into the game, Please by all means, I have a few characters that have spells and that don't have spells I see would be reasonable for them to have, but I am also waiting for the new spell sytem to come into affect.
And If you are wandering through any of the Forgotten Realm's DnD type books, and you see a spell that could transfer very well into the game, Please by all means, I have a few characters that have spells and that don't have spells I see would be reasonable for them to have, but I am also waiting for the new spell sytem to come into affect.
