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I recently got my Paladin's Handbook and while reading through it came across this: "A paladin never knowingly insults or slanders another person, even his greatest enemy"

I wanted to know what everyone else on FK thought about this. Should paladins or aspiring paladins give the same amount of courtesy toward evil characters as they do to good characters? I personally cannot see how a paladin of Torm would be courteous toward enemies who follow Cyric and Bane. But should he be courteous to perhaps a "lesser evil" deity's faithful, or an evil deity's followers who are more common in good societies such as those of Beshaba?

Being polite and having tact doesn't mean you get all buddy buddy with the evil folks. Mostly it means no being rude, no being impolite, no telling some Cyricist to go kiss a bearded gnome, etc.

Just show respect, bow and nod. That doesn't mean you have to agree with what they say but if you are to get into a heated conversation, keep a cool head. You represent more than yourself

Aran wrote:"A paladin never knowingly insults or slanders another person, even his greatest enemy"

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

And if this isn't giving away too much IC information - that same point will be reiterated during the coded paladin lessons. So yes, ALWAYS be courteous, even to your enemies.

Isaldur wrote:Being polite and having tact doesn't mean you get all buddy buddy with the evil folks. Mostly it means no being rude, no being impolite, no telling some Cyricist to go kiss a bearded gnome, etc.

I hope you didn't have any particular bearded gnomes in mind when writing this... cause I don't think I've kissed anybody...

My personal opinion is that, if they are evil and nice to you go ahead and
be nice back, If they are evil to you, Ignore them thats that I do Ic and OOC. Take Daunyelle for example She evil, But shes nice.
Hey if Daunyelle sees this, I deserve Brownie points.
*he he*

Like Legault says, I've seen that in the square(Daunyelle for example). People think that evils shouldn't be in the square because they are evil. Well, if they aren't doing anything wrong, then what does it matter? As a paladin, you have to uphold the laws, and be curteous to everyone you meet. Paladins are like priests, but somewhat more strict in how they deal with others.

I have strict opinion that "evil" is not "mean". If that were the case, more goods I bump into are "evil" than me. This is however only by outward appearance. Can't see all of someone in a conversation. You get more flies with honey, and without flies who will do your dirty work?

Daunyelle wrote:I have strict opinion that "evil" is not "mean". If that were the case, more goods I bump into are "evil" than me. This is however only by outward appearance. Can't see all of someone in a conversation. You get more flies with honey, and without flies who will do your dirty work?

I agree and disagree here, so figured I would offer my thoughts and see if they are of any use. I have many evils, most of which are not "mean". In fact I have a rough salt of the earth evil who loves to drink and fight, is stubborn and opinionated (Hmm...should have made him a dwarf ), but I made evil because he thinks the means justifies the ends. In rp with apparently "good" aligned chars, they have been "mean" to him and in fact, I have considered them more evil than him, so I agree with Daunyelle, good or evil, anyone can be "mean".
On the other hand, my main charecter, a mage is purely evil. Her every thought is in most cases not very plesant and thus she is hard to get along with. Her RP is that of a hateful, bitter and spiteful charecter, so to just about all she meets she is "mean". While I also agree with the flies statement, I accepted the fact that this charecter would not have flies and am enjoying the difficulty of doing the RP and achieving the charecters goals. If you take this route (and a valid one it is) then I wish you good luck as it can be rewarding. It is of course for the experienced player which is why I believe, if its not already so, that evil and ZK chars now have a kismet cost.

As Andreas as often stated "Lawful Good does not mean lawful stupid" just as "evil" does not always mean "mean" or for that matter "phsycotic cackling murderer" (Well at least not all the time).
You RP should define your charecter, your charecters morales, beliefs and perhaps conscience should define their alignment. While both interact alot, the later is used to make your decisions. People of different alignments often disagree with such and RP ensues.

I would rather see a point of interaction between Good and Evil that is not Waterdeep Market Square. This is a great place for newbies to seek help, and faith or alignment style RP conflicts, while extremely important, can often be intimidating to the first time player. That being said, I have no suggestions for a place that all can congregate in a similar manner.

Wow - have I rambled or what!
I better stop now before I really get way off topic
I hope this helps, or at least generates some thoughts.
Happy Mudding
S.

I was actually purely speaking for myself. This character was made an example, so I offered her logic. But while we are on evils and consideration, I do have a bone.

Daunyelle is not my first evil. She is just the first one I have stuck to, because I guess I was lucky enough not to bump into other evils until I was high leveled. I can't number how many times people have posted that they want to see more evils. But yet today, I saw an evil walk into ZK square look at someone who was wearing pieces of plain eq, and immediately threaten them. It's great that evils characters are evil, and sometimes mean. But how do you expect the evil community to thrive as well as the good when lowbie evils are being treated this way? This is not a single occasion I have seen it happen many times.

Just because Waterdeep's Market Square is where newbies go for help does not mean lowbies in ZK Square should be considered in a war zone lowbie evils could die in. You can not survive alone all the time with lowbies, and gaining coin can be hell. No matter how experienced you are, being a lowbie often requires the help of someone higher leveled.

Consideration is an ooc thing as well as ic. Consider this, if you kill off all the lowbie evils because you -can-, you will have no one to roleplay with as an evil. Dying is not something people look forward to when they are clearly lowbie, and likely know very few people because they are newer characters. It can kill inspiration.

Before even the first post of someone taking this personal, this is not a rare happening in ZK. Like I said, Daunyelle is not my first evil. I have witnessed this from the inside of it, as well as outside.

Daunyelle wrote:I was actually purely speaking for myself. This character was made an example, so I offered her logic. But while we are on evils and consideration, I do have a bone.

Daunyelle - you said: "I have strict opinion that "evil" is not "mean"." While I agree with all your logic and the rest of your "bone" I still have to disagree with your opinion as stated. I know that this is your own rule, and I am aware of all your RP, but it is my opinion that if people wish to RP a mean charecter then they should be allowed to RP that. Often its how other charecters handle a mean charecter that makes for a great RP and defines their charecters as well.

Daunyelle wrote:Just because Waterdeep's Market Square is where newbies go for help does not mean lowbies in ZK Square should be considered in a war zone lowbie evils could die in. You can not survive alone all the time with lowbies, and gaining coin can be hell. No matter how experienced you are, being a lowbie often requires the help of someone higher leveled.

While it is very true that ZK Square should not be a warzone for lowbies (and I use the term as low RP'ed char, not a low level char), I do not honestly think it is. Being one of the few evils who spends alot of time in the Zk Square, and having helped out more evils than I can count, I can divide players into two groups. The first is those who are willing to enter into some RP, to be evil and form alliances, make enemies and do all the other things that keeps me there. The second group is those who expect everything handed to them. It is this second group that can be the problem. New players to evil, and those who have a low RP'ed char cannot expect that people will help them out straight away. Show some respect, show some fear, even stand up for yourself sometimes, but demanding things of evil charecters or insulting their dieties in their temples is a sure way to make an IC enemy for life. The difference of course is that evil rarely forgives where good might. This also goes for those who decide to simply train charecters and do no RP. If you have no reputation, then people will not fear or respect you as they do not know you, and using coded skills to gain either of these is wrong. To this end, many new to evils or lowbies have "scared off" some great long term RP'ers from ever playing their evils.
All I am trying to say is this : If you want help (which you can easily get) then help us to help you.

Daunyelle wrote:Consideration is an ooc thing as well as ic. Consider this, if you kill off all the lowbie evils because you -can-, you will have no one to roleplay with as an evil.

Lowbies and low RP'ed charecters should have consideration as well. When a long-term player has put in hundred or even thousands of hours to make a cherecter what they are, to have all that RP dismissed off hand because you -can-, you will have noone to Rp with either. Why...

Daunyelle wrote:It can kill inspiration.

Daunyelle wrote:Before even the first post of someone taking this personal, this is not a rare happening in ZK. Like I said, Daunyelle is not my first evil. I have witnessed this from the inside of it, as well as outside.

As a note I took none of this personal as you made extremely good points that I think all long term evils should think on. At the same time pleae take no offence to my responses. I was merely playing the devils advocate as I also believe that there are many things that new to evils or lowbies should also take into consideration. The attitudes we have both mentioned are prelevant in WD as much as ZK, but are much more noticeable in ZK due to depth of evil RP.
Finally, as a suggestion, never be afraid to speak to a person OOC. Recently I was speaking IC to a supplicant of my charecters faith. To test them a little, and to establish some faith RP, my char put them down, scorned them, all IC. When they acted all cowed, I had my char grow angry and scorn them more for being fearful and weak. This person then asked me OOC why I was treating them like that. I spoke to them about how the charecter was testing them, see if they are strong willed and asked them OOC why they weren't standing up for themselves. They replied that they were afraid they were going to get killed if they did. (Validating your point there Daunyelle) When I explained to them that PK is the last thing from my mind and my charecters, and standing up to them is what my charecter wanted them to do they seemed a bit dumbfounded. We then had a great chat about dogma and other aspects of RP and this person who was new to evil took it all on board. They also accepted why my charecter was being mean. And when my charecter gave them a small task to prove themselves and perhaps earn forgiveness, I know OOC they were eager to accept this to facilitate the IC RP. They could have chosen not to do the task IC, but this would have mean alienating my char IC and reducing the options for assistance (a valid choice if you wish to take it).
The point here though is that often its good to ask a person about things OOC. I am not encouraging going OOC straight away for I believe you should always let the RP go along and see what happens, but never be afraid to ask people OOC why certain things happened. I did this and learnt alot about how to RP (often simple things I overlooked)as well as about different faiths and charecter exploits I was not aware of, though, I had to make sure I did not use such information IC

In the end, I hope that everyone remember that it is a game, and games are meant to be fun. Generally, most players are not here to be mean or to PK you because they can, so if you are in a situation where you think such may happen, RP it out for a bit first, go with the flow, try something new, be prepared to learn and be open to different possibilities (without of course forcing RP onto others), and if someone is making you want to stop playing your char, then let them know, talk to them and resolve the issue.

Thanks for listening
S.

Sorry, just going back before this post got heavy, maybe 3 posts ago. Paladins need to buy Priests of Umberlee Beer. Look it up, it is in the book, I don't know what page. I want my beer.

Daunyelle wrote:But yet today, I saw an evil walk into ZK square look at someone who was wearing pieces of plain eq, and immediately threaten them.

Consider it freshman hazing. A way to weed out the week hearted.

This evil person you spoke of could have it in their rp that they bully the weak. Honestly I don't see what they did wrong if this is in their rp. Maybe the ZK should be rp safe too? I don't think so.

well the character in some plain gear was being rather rude to a malarite who then threatend to pull his ears of and skin him or something... so it was pretty in char to do this...

Daunyelle then asserted her authoritah of course...

slightly off topic I have been having amazing fun with my 1st (semi)evil, long may it continue

I havn't read the whole post so I promise to come back and do that later but I have class accross town in 15minutes so I just wanted to put in my opinion of what I did see.

Stayne is correct, Evil does not mean mean. I had what was turning into a cool rp with a really low level goodie I believe till he ran away. I had made no move or threat against him. In fact I had not even insulted him.

Paladins should always be acting polite and acting their alignment. Especially when in the face of their worst enemy. Their manners is what keeps them "ABOVE" their enemies. If they loose those manners and start yelling and threatening and being rude they have slipped from that vaunted place of paladinhood.

Evil, is by far, one of the most testing RP's you will undertake.

Subject of "Mean-ness"

I am unsure how you define "mean". =P

There are different shades of evil, and though I'm hazy on your definition of "mean", all of them seek their own ends at another's misfortune. Does this mean "blatently evil"? No, not really. Take one's roleplay as a thief who's had a pesky mercenary messing up your business of robbing merchants. Do you overtly chase him down and slap him, challanging him to a dual? Maybe. Or maybe you'll just steal his sword, so he can't defend himself. Or poison his rations, so he'll be weakened on the next journey.

Now, while this is not openly evil, it sure as hell is mean. Which is why I am confused on the term "mean".

Murdering someone because it's good for business - Evil
Calling someone names - Mean

As Cyric, I like evil. Mean, I could care less about -- They have the stomach and spine of an amoeba and could never hang with the big dogs.

Now, judgement on character from the "red aura's" used in detect evil is like a window into the past. Seeing this red aura means the detector can see that, based on previous performances, your life up unto this point has been primarily evil. None of this "But I wasn't being evil at the time!" bull, either the bad things you've done in your life do or do not outweigh the good.

Now, as a High Priestess, Daunyelle, I'm sure you've experienced that people will have a pre-concieved notion of the High Priestess of Pain. And they should -- You are all that epetimizes pain and torture.

Subject of ZK Newbies

What can I say?

The best response is: How did the newbie take it? Most of the time, people will complain that so-and-so is mistreating them. Where a goodie would go to the authorities and report, cry, kick, scream, cry some more. Wusses.

An overt evil would make it his life goal to pay this person back their debt. Think of this as a LE, one that would accept the fact that they are weak, but venture off and train hard in order to face them again, next time stronger, smarter, faster.

A more chaotic, sneaky evil would openly admit that they are weaker, and submit to the will of the stronger. Hopefully, they could stroke this more powerful adversaries ego, get close, and, when his back is turned, stabbity.

So, in summary -- Did the new person cry that he was being treated improperly RPly? Or did he step up to the bar and take the challanging RP? I observe a lot more help towards the ones that can truely step up to the bar and RP an evil on the mud, rather than the ones that complain or quit.

he was giving as good as he was getting and if I recall correctly told her to go and threaten someone else because he had bigger teeth than her...

something along those lines....

I think Daunyelle just wanted a chance to inflict some pain on someone...

Rhetorical question, but you get the idea

There's a big difference between interesting RP, and walking up and threatening someone cause they're breathing your air. The latter is what I am refering to. For the most part people can tell the difference between an rp and blatent my aura is redder than yours let me kill you for breathing threats. I am NOT refering to a SINGLE time. I am speaking on several that I have witnessed, or even been the lowbie of. It's not about a safe zone. I do not believe it should be a safe zone. I do however believe people should not walk in, see someone in plain eq and automatically start with threats. No one walks in and looks at me and starts in with threats. I guess I'm not making a very good point. I do not disagree with -ROLEPLAY- like that. I do disagree with walk in, threaten, combat, lowbie who never had a chance at all dies, pretty annoying lowbie does not want to play evils goes back to their main good alt. That is what I'm talking about.

I agree with the posts on the subject, but in referring to Daunyelles posts. The best thing I find that if someone threatens you on your lowbie, you can run you can do many things. It is not like you HAVE to combat. A evil won't walk into the ZK square then automatically attack a lowbie. There would be quite a bit of RP, and the lowbie should get a clue that 'Hey this guy wants my blood' and RP dodging out of the way or hiding down an alleyway You can also speak to the evil OOC about going killmode stun, if you do not want it to resort to a pkill. I have a evil that is extremely cocky to other evils, he is still in plain armours, yet he hasnt been skinned *yet* I would just recommend being creative in getting out of tight situations if someone wants to kill you.

On being mean, I strongly disagree with a evil being always mean. There is many creative and intricate evils out there. Like Daunyelle's quote, you draw more flies with honey. It is entirely up to the character's RP.

Back to the ramblings about pkilling lowbies, I can see where Daunyelle is coming from. I am going to use orcs for example:

A group of orcs is in the camp, you havent seen a orc in months and really want to RP, then you RP for five minutes, and you keep getting stunned or even killed by the other orcs. This really turns people off in my opinion of playing that character type. What I would suggest is if someone is RPing being reluctant to fight, don't keep pursuing them on fighting etc. Remember this is a RP enforced mud, not a fighting one. Now if the evil you are pursuing to fight, insults you, that is a entirely different story