WD Friendly Policy

[Cret]

=====================
Waterdeep is a Lawful Good city that is host to many adventurers. It is the
City of Splendours and attracts many different types of visitors from all
over Faerun.

It is also the city that is recommended for new players to begin in, as it is
the easiest of the start cities. Because of this it is very important that
Waterdeep remain a newbie friendly city. If you are in Waterdeep you are
expected to help your fellow players both ICly and OOCly. This does not mean
you have to give them anything, but if questions are asked they should be
answered in as helpful and polite a manner as possible.

And this is what im basically getting from people...

You say, OOC, 'Mutter, what ever happened to WD rules on helping people '
A male shield dwarf says, OOC, 'you have like a million hours you don't need help'
You say, OOC, 'Didnt think the help file on WD role play stated anything about how many hours were played :9'
A male shield dwarf says, OOC, 'deal with it?'

Can we put an amendment into the helpfile along the lines of 'this only deals with new players'?

[Nysan]

That log looks... friendly. Even us old folks need help sometimes.

[Raona]

I think this should be discussed rather than set by fiat. I don't know and don't want to bring up for discussion the specific case Cret refers to, but more generally, consider this:
You are a paladin in WD and an evil, low-level PC asks you where Hiraat's is. Do you offer them what IC help you can, offering to guide them there, give them a map, tell/show them where they can get a map? Do you react as you would to a higher-level PC, feeling uncomfortable, giving them a brief, perhaps incomplete answer ("It's west of here.") and getting away from them as quickly as possible?

If you somehow know that the player of that PC is a veteran, should or does that make any difference? If you were, say, a cleric of Tymora, might you even send them the wrong way?

I'm not sure how one would/could/should know that a new PC is played by a veteran, I'm setting that aside for the moment. (That's actually the main cause of my reluctance to amend the helpfile unilaterally - shouldn't we assume...and not know...that a new PC is played by a new player?) I could see how veteran players could take undue advantage of the newbie friendly policy, to help their new PCs along, but I could also see how they need help, too. Does hometown choice make any difference, should the expectation of a bit of help be an advantage to choosing WD as a hometown?

[Isaldur]

I thought that policy put into place by prior administration before we had other hometowns available other than Zhentil Keep (and perhaps Mithril Hall?) to prevent a few different things, namely:

- New players being ignored and losing interest in FK
- Players in Waterdeep were being constantly harassed by evil aligned characters who were not using much common sense in terms of immersion.
- Having something written to help suppliment the enforcement G/Borderline PG rating of the MUD at the time.

While I have never been supportive of an OOC policy changing the way a character should react (See Raona's example of Paladin running into a new evil PC) I do think finding a suitable way to keep new players is very important. The MUD as a whole is very overwhelming at first to the players themselves, and that aspect is what any friendly policy should address. Older players with new characters already know the mechanics, how the MUD works, the forums, and are familiar with the ask channel. They shouldn't need to be handled with kid gloves OOCly, and only IC if the character they interact with is the type of character that would react nicely.

to sum it up my opinion it's a big band-aid that only addresses one important issue and blocks fixing the other two.

[Lathlain]

I was of the distinct impression that the 'play nice' IC policy for Waterdeep had been abolished - though feel free to put me right there. Like Isaldur, I've certainly no interest in seeing peoples' IC behaviour controlled by an inexplicable policy (especially when Waterdeep is anything but a lawful good city!).

That said, the staff expect all players to behave cordially to one another OOC. There's absolutely no need to OOCly tell someone that they don't deserve help that I can think of. Whether or not the player in question is new - a little kindness goes a long way!

[Lirith]

I think it's a bit patronising to have something like this enforced. I'd like to think that most people have enough common sense to tell when a new character (be they evil or not) is a new player and in genuine need of help because they are struggling with the game. In that sort of situation, I think the question of whether to help or not crosses the line into OOC, simply because everyone remembers how difficult it was to find things/know what to do when you first started playing. There are ways to help people IC without compromising your own character's beliefs, although I'm a big fan of just giving people a hint to something and making them explore, rather than handfeeding stuff.

I also think that sometimes an established player might be in genuine need of help, and it shouldn't be assumed otherwise just because they've played for a long time. If someone that seems like an established player is asking for help in WD, then I'd be inclined to believe that they really did need that help, rather than assuming that they were trying to take advantage.

Choosing WD as a hometown does generally mean you have the advantage of more access to help IC, since there are more people there. Personally I would likely help anyone seeming lost with the game regardless of location.

Regarding OOC, everyone should be polite to everyone, regardless of IC or OOC differences. It's not that difficult to choose your words carefully to refuse something or if you happen to disagree with someone.

[Nysan]

I was under the impression the policy was gone. As others have said, enforcing a 'play nice' rule always felt a bit harsh. Still, sometimes it is better to consider OOC rather than IC. Yeah, you may be a paladin or a super evil baddie but helping someone that is obviously struggling and needs help is a good reason to step out of the normal role for a few minutes. Its nothing I would force players to do or look down on someone for not helping, but we are supposed to be a friendly community and a small gesture might be the deciding factor of the struggling player staying or leaving.

As for experienced players... everyone needs help now and then. I have been here how long and still ask newbie-ish question on the forums and in-game? Exactly. Bob may have been here 10 years, doesn't mean Bob has used trades in that 10 years or played every class/race around. Almost always there are aspects of the game even experienced players never done or really don't do that often. I don't expect everyone to know as much about trades as me and at the same time, I hope a ranger or thief wouldn't laugh at me if I asked a question.

[Selveem]

With regards to the Friendly WD Policy, I never knew it was "abolished," but that evils being let back into WD were still required to "play nice" with others. In fact, even the "help Alignment" states you should be helping new players, especially in Waterdeep. If it's changed, the help files should indeed be changed, but I think the main concern for the rule still exists: we want new players, we can't afford to be scaring them off, and even older players have a role in ensuring new players aren't drowned during the immersion into WD. Because, let's face it, WD is one of (if not THE) biggest single area in the MUD.

Sure, your hyper-zealot Paladin might notice a red aura, but the Paladin should also be able to tell if a question/request is innocent enough. I think a lot of people are, perhaps, not reading the help alignment file: "Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character."

As for "oldies" being exempt to this policy: I think that's garbage. The MUD is evolving (and should, constantly). As old things are removed/replaced and new things introduced, there will _always_ be something new to an "Oldie." I think before someone makes a callous remark towards anyone that they should consider this.

[Mele]

An elephant never forgets, nor does a woman. As quoted, the policy to 'play nice' was abolished in December of 2004 via an announcement post which seems to no longer exist. It seems the helpfile never got the notice, though this quote was what it was intended to be changed to:

Roleplay in Waterdeep
=====================
Waterdeep is a Lawful Good city that is host to many adventurers. It is
the City of Splendours and attracts many different types of visitors from
all over Faerun.

It is also the city that is recommended for new players to begin in, as
it is the easiest of the start cities. For this reason, if you see someone who is obviously a newbie - they could be dressed primarily in 'plain' equipment or asking questions like 'where can I buy armour' or the like, we ask that you provide them with whatever OOC help they require.

This assistance should be provided at all times, in any area, but is especially important in Waterdeep due to the greater number of newbies that will use it as a starting city.

Allow me to be a bit of a devil's advocate - remember when you osay something your tone triggers the tone and responses you will receive in return. Ask yourself if it's really necessary to make such a comment, especially when it's one that is potentially criticizing the actions of someones pc. When you say something that refers to a helpfile dictating a character should be behaving differently than they are, it the replies you receive are less likely to be coated with honey.

For a different perspective, I don't feel like our sour replyer was quite saying "Your hours mean you don't deserve ooc help." as much as, "Your hours say you should know not all characters will help IC and now you've gone into osay so I'm frustrated, get over it."' Which isn't exactly kittens and sunshines - but neither was the ooc conversation starter!

[Belose]

Belose actually happened to BE there when this happened. The description that the person had even SAID they were a tiefling. As a side note, Belose also had detect evil going which of course will influence his reactions. The thing is, Belose TOLD that person that he didn't think that tieflings were supposed to be running around the city anyway and good luck on getting help from people in WD simply because she was a tiefling with a bony tail and slightly visible fangs!!! Like THAT wouldn't keep most people from dealing with them! Not to mention, I don't think anyone who can afford the the point cost to MAKE a tiefling is a newbie that needs that much help. But Belose couldn't remember where the trainer they were asking for was anyway, but still.... I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, but I said OOC it was an RP situational thingie before the dwarf showed up.. I think...I've slept since then...the dwarf might have heard that part or not..anyways...But I do agree that sometimes even us oldtimers need help in remembering things, so don't go crazy on me, okay?
I tried to RP it to the best of my ability.. and if they had OOC said they were a newbie, I would have tried to help them without acutally going against my alignment grain, so to speak. Hope this makes sense. I'm just trying to help put some perspective on it...let me know if it just confuses the issue..

[Selveem]

Allow me to be a bit of a devil's advocate - remember when you osay something your tone triggers the tone and responses you will receive in return.

Text has no tone

I don't forget a whole lot either. In this particular instance, I don't think what he said demonstrated encouragement to be treated like he is less important/valuable than a new player.

That I know his player may make it seem I'd rather take his side, but in truth it's because I know his player I understand the source of his frustration in this particular instance. And realistically I can't say I wouldn't be just as frustrated as he is.

FK's always had a policy that we try to help each other out within the rules of the game; and, in some instances, exceptions are made for the sake of compassion and concord. I don't understand why his case would be any different.

[Belose]

Been in that situation myself, Selveem. Mostly I was worried about RPing it right without making someone get PO'ed at me, you know?

[Selveem]

If I was a newbie, Belose, I would _loathe_ having to osay and admit I am.

I just want that out there as a point of reference because quite honestly I doubt I would be the only person who would feel that way.

[Cret]

Please dont take it as just a one time occurrence. I have several low level characters that run around WD. I posted that as an example of things that have been occurring over the past year. Granted, this last time I was on a tiefling. But Ive done it with elves and humans too. Good, evil, neutral. It all seems to be the same. People are only willing to help people they know.. or people who obviously are newbies. The rest are just swept under the rug.

[Peverell]

People are only willing to help people they know.. or people who obviously are newbies. The rest are just swept under the rug.

I would have to refute that. As Peverell I've given help to just about anyone who asked me - escorted young adventurers to farflung places, given directions within the city, helped people find objects and trainers, healed, regenerated and raised characters I've never met before etc etc Someone dressed all in plain armour might get a little more help, because I'd assume the character was very low level, regardless of whether they were someone's first or fiftieth alt. But I have also helped people who are decked out in fancy armour and magical accoutrements. I don't care who the player is, and I don't ask. With regards to this particular case, if a tiefling came up to me in Waterdeep and asked for help then Pev would probably do his Pevvish thing of remaining civil until given a reason to be otherwise. Other characters wouldn't, and that would be a risk you'd have to take bringing a tiefling into Waterdeep.

[Selveem]

Well, seeing as he attempted every other avenue he could, I'm sure he'd like some constructive, valid advice on how else he could manage it. Though I cannot speak for him, I know I personally would like to know how it should be handled without receiving a 'deal with it' response.

His character was looking for something and looked on his own, but couldn't find it.
Sent in a request, but was told what he was looking for is in-game and accessible to evils.
Asked multiple high level characters ICly to find it who traveled all the places they could get to to find it, but were unsuccessful.

Is it any wonder at that point he was just throwing darts at the wall? So, now his character as a last resort travels to the hub of information and trade to ask the very innocent question as to where it is, but isn't successful even at that.

If someone were to have given me such an impolite response.. Well, quite frankly, most of you know my style and I don't respond well to things like that OOCly.

Edited to add: Oh, and Pevvy, you're the rare breed; that's why you're my hero.

[Alvirin]

I think that the only characters that deserve special consideration are those of new players, and these are forcedly from good to neutral alignment, nobody should expect anything for granted (nor even new players) but to think of any help as a blessing or gift.

[Brar]

His character was looking for something and looked on his own, but couldn't find it.
Sent in a request, but was told what he was looking for is in-game and accessible to evils.
Asked multiple high level characters ICly to find it who traveled all the places they could get to to find it, but were unsuccessful.

I don't know what he was looking after, nor do I care.

I'm all for helping everyone, most my character are carebears in regards to that..I even find IC way to help a starting halforc with my dwarf while looking menacing and such but letting go 50 plats worth of loot by accident. (I stupidly forgot an ore bag full of stuff to sell on the floor and even emote it..oh stupid dwarf.. )
But, you can't take a tiefling or an aasimar in ZK and expect to be treated nicely and everyone to be all helpful, hence the kismet cost, you choose to take a harder path in your choice of races, live with it.

And to be honest, well if you can't find something after having searched for it ICly, then yes, sucks it up and turn the page.
You can't always have what you want.

In last ressort, if it is something vital for your roleplay (which I doubt), you can make an application detailling your search and how you did not found it, and if you really searched everywhere for it then maybe the application team will be nice and help you (an npc giving you a hint or such have happened and I'm sure it's still happening when there is a reason to do so).

I don't want to sounds harsh or anything, but in my eyes the situation here is more a problem of (spoiled?) players who can't accept to not have one thing than a real problem of policies or helping.
I am not saying it is bad or good or judge anything, but the facts as I understand them is nothing more than that.

Now, about the general atmosphere in WD.
As a newbie that began playing 4 months ago, the atmosphere is far less friendly in WD than it once was. Even for good character, no one ever greet you if you don't force them to do so (ICly of course), don't even dream about finding someone to help you on a quest, ect... most of the time, you actually don't find anyone in WD anymore in fact or very few RP focused chars. Most of the people are dungeon delving and not inclined to invite people if people don't ask first.
There is no more this "welcome everyone" thing, it is more secluded and people have to prove themselves first before having the honor of a welcome or attention.

I'm not saying it is true all the time, of course it varies with people. But it is the general feeling I have while playing my new character. Of course, it is very different when playing the old ones and far easier on the socialibizing.

Brar

[Xryon]

You don't see that as a problem though, Brar? As a fairly old player myself, I remember what it used to be like when everyone was friendly and helpful. Xryon used to sit in the square all day, just so he could help people as they came through. I don't think anyone here is "spoiled" or complaining about not being able to find things (Though I think outright assuming that what they're looking for isn't important enough to warrant their heated search is a bit conceited.)

I don't play enough to really think I have much of voice in this field, but perhaps it is time to make a pointed return to old ways? (In this one way of course.. Please for the love that all is sacred don't go back to how everything used to be.)

In my opinion, people SHOULD be able to find help, or at least expect a polite reply OOCly. ICly, if your character's a jerk, that's fine. But come on.. There's no reason to be an ass through osay. A simple "I don't know the answer. Sorry" would suffice.

[Brar]

Ah no, I see no problem here here. I'm stated a feeling I have that's all

And OOCly for OOC matters, I agree everyone should be able to find help but with the forum and question channel I assume it is the case already.
ICly for IC matter, as blunt as it can be for me it is a big no. You should be able to find help in your sphere of influence, but not take for granted that somebody who doesn't know you and have all the reason to not help you HAVE to help (because it is basically what is said about that policy, the HAVE to and not could) and for me, skills/spells/feats/items are IC and nothing else, the only thing I can imagine being "vital" would be the wings feat for outsiders, and even then until you find the trainer, suck it up and roleplay your wings growing and not being able to hold your weight yet.
There is nothing else I can think of that can be vital for a roleplay, hence my "(Which I doubt)".
and there is a difference between heated search and not accepting that someone turns you down. The osay quotes in the first post is obviously only a part of the thing. And honestly I don't see anything bad said in it, I found it kinda humourous before the discussion heated up and turned into what it is now and I would have probably answer the same, perhaps worse to a tiefling (hence not a newbie ie kismet cost) travelling in Waterdeep and trying to resort to osay to find help on an IC problem, it can very well be my wife behind the tiefling that I would not take it with a good mood anyway.
You can't find it IC then suck it up IC.

IC Actions gives IC Consequences (Oh man.... it feels like a century since I last said that!!!!), Icly you go to the wrong place to find info and is rejected, then Icly begin a campaing of terror and revenge on this place. But saying OOC, 'Mutter, what ever happened to WD rules on helping people" to try to resort to an old rule that is obviously completly out of character for you only for the sake of finding something IC that you can't manage to find is on the verge of OOC abuse for me.

I think I'll stop here before I get on my hardcore mode again and asks for the removal of osay and such :p

Brar